Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #7

[Satchie]

I have always wondered who looked after the children if both parents were away for work. A nanny’s testimony would be useful regarding Nora’s abilities, although the school principal confirmed the parents’ testimony. But the more information the better, I suppose.

I would like to hear from a doctor about people with her disability and her own level of disability. It seems her condition would not worsen: "HPE is not a condition in which the brain deteriorates over time."
Holoprosencephaly - Wikipedia. It also seems her case was exceptionally mild, more severe cases have severe disfigurement and don't survive more than a few years.

My problem with the statements that Nora could not possible have gone off on her own, is they don't take into account that, in spite of her disability, she was a teenager, growing and changing fast. At some point, every parent discovers with shock that their little girl is determined to do things they've never seen them do before, and has emotions and desires that they never expected. It seems to me a possible case of over-protectiveness, that her parents believed that she would never, could never, grow up.

 

[Chiatos]

That can’t possibly be accurate. Her BMI would be 12.5, well below even severely underweight. She would look skeletal. A healthy BMI is 18.5-25, or about 45kg minimum.

Yes! I know! Even Nora's BMI is a mystery!
She must have been very skinny weighing only 30 kg!

 

[Chiatos]

During the hearing with pathologist Cary, the "more or less exact" spot where Nora was found has been mentioned.
The family's lawyer said that the spot was in zone 6, however, considering the maps used, it looks to me that the spot was in zone 5?

"This is a map of the search area. The witnesses have given evidence the location of Nora’s body was roughly at “LA” of the word Ladang, in zone 6 (shouldn't that be zone 5?)
Each of these squares on the map represent a 1 km search area. And we know that on the 7th of August there was a search team there in zone 6. On that day all areas were searched (1 to 6), but in particular the area where Nora was eventually found, was searched in some detail on the 7th –so on day 4- ."

The spot on the map seems to be very near (100-200 m) to the water treatment plant of Ngoi Ngoi:

Here an aerial view:

Nora would have had to cross some dirt roads several times in order to reach that spot.

 

[Chiatos]

Lawyer:
On the 8th, again that area was searched and we heard evidence from inspector … that he in fact had a much more detailed search that day
On the 9th of August –day 6 of the search- again that area was searched in some depth, in one km square. A detailed search of that was done on day 6.
…
Can we say that Nora was deceased by the 10th of August?

Cary: On or around the 10th of August. It depends on the entomology and ….. I would agree: around 4 days.

Lawyer:
So that would be 1 day following the search on the 9th?
Cary: yes.

Lawyer:
If Nora was not present in zone 6 or 5 on the day of the 9th, looking at the map, she would have had to walk to get to that point where she was found. Something like a kilometre across difficult terrain, in the jungle, in the heat, with no shoes and no clothing.
If Nora would not have been there on the 9th of August but she potentially was there on the 10th, by that point she had been alone in the jungle for quite some time. We know she die of starvation she would have been extremely weak by that time, would that be right?

[59:00] Cary:
My main concern was that the body had been placed there. That would be always a concern in any of these sort of investigations and so, if the body was placed there by (an)other(s) then that would readily explain why she wasn’t there earlier.

Lawyer:
And would be something that we couldn’t exclude, right?

Cary: that is right, yes.

 

[Zuleika]

I would like to hear from a doctor about people with her disability and her own level of disability. It seems her condition would not worsen: "HPE is not a condition in which the brain deteriorates over time."
Holoprosencephaly - Wikipedia. It also seems her case was exceptionally mild, more severe cases have severe disfigurement and don't survive more than a few years.

My problem with the statements that Nora could not possible have gone off on her own, is they don't take into account that, in spite of her disability, she was a teenager, growing and changing fast. At some point, every parent discovers with shock that their little girl is determined to do things they've never seen them do before, and has emotions and desires that they never expected. It seems to me a possible case of over-protectiveness, that her parents believed that she would never, could never, grow up.

I seem to recall it being said she only had the mind of a 6 yr. old .

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I don’t understand why they don’t know if her body was moved to the stream, or whether she died in situ. That should be straightforward to ascertain either way.

 

[Cascadia Mount]

I don’t understand why they don’t know if her body was moved to the stream, or whether she died in situ. That should be straightforward to ascertain either way.

I seem to recall it being said she only had the mind of a 6 yr. old .

There was a discussion before about whether Nora was "severely" disabled. Most children with that disorder don't live very long so you could say Nora didn't have a severe case but I think she was still pretty impaired. Someone else explained it differently which made sense to me as well. It's just so dificult to communicate even when people speak the same language.

 

[Officer Dibble]

I don’t understand why they don’t know if her body was moved to the stream, or whether she died in situ. That should be straightforward to ascertain either way.

I think the body decomposed quickly in the environment.

 

[kittythehare]

I would like to hear from a doctor about people with her disability and her own level of disability. It seems her condition would not worsen: "HPE is not a condition in which the brain deteriorates over time."
Holoprosencephaly - Wikipedia. It also seems her case was exceptionally mild, more severe cases have severe disfigurement and don't survive more than a few years.

My problem with the statements that Nora could not possible have gone off on her own, is they don't take into account that, in spite of her disability, she was a teenager, growing and changing fast. At some point, every parent discovers with shock that their little girl is determined to do things they've never seen them do before, and has emotions and desires that they never expected. It seems to me a possible case of over-protectiveness, that her parents believed that she would never, could never, grow up.

The court has heard expert testimony on her condition. The links to the testimonies are upthread.

 

[Satchie]

Nicky: no absolute proof
In the case of Nicky there was no proof of someone having entered the tent.
No proof of Nicky having been snatched from the tent.
No proof of Nicky having been snatched outside the tent.
His group mates never heard a sound and didn't wake up.
When they woke up in the morning they realised that Nicky was missing.
There had been no known precedents at that camp site.
The coroner at that time, found no absolute proof that Nicky had been abused sexually.
The coroner at that time, was not able to determine the exact cause of death.

Nicky: red flags
Nicky's bare feet in combination with the distance at which he had been found was a red flag.
His underwear and pyjama were inside out.
Partial DNA traces were found on his underwear and pyjama, but insufficient to form a profile and even so to find a match.

Nicky: the traces found on his clothing
Only almost 20 years later a dna profile could be reconstructed by means of new techniques (enhancement).
Large scale dna investigation brought police to identify the perp.


Back to Nora: cause of death has been found to be an ulcer etc., of course it must be.
But there seem to be some similarities with the case above. I honestly can't believe that Nora walked all that way barefoot without having any traces on her feet.

It's an interesting comparison, thanks for bringing it up.

In the case of Nicky, his feet were actually perfectly clean, it wasn't the lack of injuries but the lack of any dirt at all that ruled out his having walked.

I have read that the two independent autopsies found that he was sexually abused.

12 years in prison for sexual assault of Dutch boy found dead in 1998

"The cause of the boy's death was never determined with 100 percent certainty, but all natural causes were ruled out, the prosecutor said. Two pathologists who did an autopsy of the boy's body concluded that he was raped before he was killed. Nicky's pajama bottoms and underwear were inside out when his body was found, indicating that he may have been redressed. "

There was also semen found near his body in a tissue, and on his body.

But most significant, IMO, is that Dutch police believed he had been abducted, raped and murdered and they would stop at nothing to punish someone for it. They invested vast amounts of time and energy into catching the person using DNA matching.

Whereas, the Malaysian police do not believe Nora was abducted, raped and murdered, there's not sufficient hard evidence to lead them to conclude that, and IMO they will not proceed with the investigation just because they can't absolutely rule it out. They don't appear to have any DNA and even if they did, would not demand DNA samples from 20,000 men in the region and then go on a manhunt for the man who has not submitted it.

Even if her parents, her school, and everyone on Websleuths fervently believes she was the victim of a crime, IMO that will not persuade the Malaysian police. IMO, that's just the reality of it.

 

[Lilibet]

The court has heard expert testimony on her condition. The links to the testimonies are upthread.

Can you remind me of what experts testified as to Nora’s condition? I may have missed or forgotten something, but I’ve read transcripts of testimony and I only recall the principal of her school. Were there medical experts? It would be super helpful if you could bring forward links you recall for those of us who missed or overlooked them. Thanks so much.

 

[kittythehare]

Can you remind me of what experts testified as to Nora’s condition? I may have missed or forgotten something, but I’ve read transcripts of testimony and I only recall the principal of her school. Were there medical experts? It would be super helpful if you could bring forward links you recall for those of us who missed or overlooked them. Thanks so much.

You will fnd them all on The Malaysian Judiciary U Tube channel.
Here's the latest to get you started, all others are filed under their channel.
YouTube
v=oq415rEBgyQ&feature=emb_logo
And the ones you want to listen to for a full explanation of the late Nora Quoirin' medical condition and a description of her limitations are Her mother's sworn testimony, her father's sworn testimony and the testimony of an educational expert who knew Nora well and saw her on a daily basis.
Hope this helps.

 

[Lilibet]

You will fnd them all on The Malaysian Judiciary U Tube channel.
Here's the latest to get you started, all others are filed under their channel.
YouTube
v=oq415rEBgyQ&feature=emb_logo
And the ones you want to listen to for a full explanation of the late Nora Quoirin' medical condition and a description of her limitations are Her mother's sworn testimony, her father's sworn testimony and the testimony of an educational expert who knew Nora well and saw her on a daily basis.
Hope this helps.

Thanks for the link @kittythehare. The three testimonies you listed regarding Nora’s condition (mother, father and principal of Nora’s school) are the ones I was aware of and had read. I think what @Satchie was getting at (post quoted below) was that it would be helpful to hear from an independent medical expert on Nora’s condition and perhaps her own doctor to round out the picture we have of Nora’s abilities, perhaps in a more dispassionate way. The more information the better for the inquest. But perhaps those witnesses are still to come.

I would like to hear from a doctor about people with her disability and her own level of disability. It seems her condition would not worsen: "HPE is not a condition in which the brain deteriorates over time."
Holoprosencephaly - Wikipedia. It also seems her case was exceptionally mild, more severe cases have severe disfigurement and don't survive more than a few years.

My problem with the statements that Nora could not possible have gone off on her own, is they don't take into account that, in spite of her disability, she was a teenager, growing and changing fast. At some point, every parent discovers with shock that their little girl is determined to do things they've never seen them do before, and has emotions and desires that they never expected. It seems to me a possible case of over-protectiveness, that her parents believed that she would never, could never, grow up.

 

[Chiatos]

It's an interesting comparison, thanks for bringing it up.

In the case of Nicky, his feet were actually perfectly clean, it wasn't the lack of injuries but the lack of any dirt at all that ruled out his having walked.

I have read that the two independent autopsies found that he was sexually abused.

12 years in prison for sexual assault of Dutch boy found dead in 1998

"The cause of the boy's death was never determined with 100 percent certainty, but all natural causes were ruled out, the prosecutor said. Two pathologists who did an autopsy of the boy's body concluded that he was raped before he was killed. Nicky's pajama bottoms and underwear were inside out when his body was found, indicating that he may have been redressed. "

There was also semen found near his body in a tissue, and on his body.

But most significant, IMO, is that Dutch police believed he had been abducted, raped and murdered and they would stop at nothing to punish someone for it. They invested vast amounts of time and energy into catching the person using DNA matching.

Whereas, the Malaysian police do not believe Nora was abducted, raped and murdered, there's not sufficient hard evidence to lead them to conclude that, and IMO they will not proceed with the investigation just because they can't absolutely rule it out. They don't appear to have any DNA and even if they did, would not demand DNA samples from 20,000 men in the region and then go on a manhunt for the man who has not submitted it.

Even if her parents, her school, and everyone on Websleuths fervently believes she was the victim of a crime, IMO that will not persuade the Malaysian police. IMO, that's just the reality of it.

Hi Satchie, there are some inaccuracies in that article.
Copied and pasted from your post:
In the case of Nicky, his feet were actually perfectly clean, it wasn't the lack of injuries but the lack of any dirt at all that ruled out his having walked. Yes his feet were clean and they lacked scratches or any kind of injury. The underground in and outside the campsite was covered with sharp pine needles. No one would walk that distance bare foot. This was the first red flag when Nicky was found.

I have read that the two independent autopsies found that he was sexually abused. It would be more accurate to say that the outcome of the autopsies showed two minor lacerations (so no major lacerations) and therefore sexual abuse could not be ruled out. Rape was not yet considered to be proven.

12 years in prison for sexual assault of Dutch boy found dead in 1998

"The cause of the boy's death was never determined with 100 percent certainty, but all natural causes were ruled out, the prosecutor said. Two pathologists who did an autopsy of the boy's body concluded that he was raped before he was killed. Nicky's pajama bottoms and underwear were inside out when his body was found, indicating that he may have been redressed. "

There was also semen found near his body in a tissue, and on his body. No semen was found on Nicky's body.
The semen found on the tissue nearby was of another unknown individual.

But most significant, IMO, is that Dutch police believed he had been abducted, raped and murdered and they would stop at nothing to punish someone for it. They invested vast amounts of time and energy into catching the person using DNA matching. The case of Nicky was bound to become a cold case, were it not for investigational reporter Peter de Vries, who kept on digging and lobbying on behalf of the parents. He never gave up and has become a close friend of the family throughout the years. He has been the one to persuade LE to start up a large scale DNA investigation.

In the end, it has been the court of justice to rule (20 Nov 2020) that Nicky had been raped (based on 3 arguments: the pathologists findings, the inside-out clothing and the DNA traces found on Nicky's clothing.) Note that: no traces of semen were ever found on Nicky.

Whereas, the Malaysian police do not believe Nora was abducted, raped and murdered, there's not sufficient hard evidence to lead them to conclude that, and IMO they will not proceed with the investigation just because they can't absolutely rule it out. They don't appear to have any DNA and even if they did, would not demand DNA samples from 20,000 men in the region and then go on a manhunt for the man who has not submitted it.
I agree that with no DNA, Malaysian LE won't have much to go on with.
However, the red flags are present. I can't believe that Nora walked all by herself over that terrain barefoot.
I'm not suggesting a sexual motive, since up to now there hasn't been found any proof for that. Could be any motive for her to have been snatched. I just simply don't see her walking that distance and crossing roads to reach the spot where she has been found. As her lawyer said: by that time she would have been so extremely exhausted, she would have had to have walked more than 1 km the same day she died. Already suffering from an ulcer that had formed days before. That doesn't sum up.

 

[Officer Dibble]

It's an interesting comparison, thanks for bringing it up.

In the case of Nicky, his feet were actually perfectly clean, it wasn't the lack of injuries but the lack of any dirt at all that ruled out his having walked.

I have read that the two independent autopsies found that he was sexually abused.

12 years in prison for sexual assault of Dutch boy found dead in 1998

"The cause of the boy's death was never determined with 100 percent certainty, but all natural causes were ruled out, the prosecutor said. Two pathologists who did an autopsy of the boy's body concluded that he was raped before he was killed. Nicky's pajama bottoms and underwear were inside out when his body was found, indicating that he may have been redressed. "

There was also semen found near his body in a tissue, and on his body.

But most significant, IMO, is that Dutch police believed he had been abducted, raped and murdered and they would stop at nothing to punish someone for it. They invested vast amounts of time and energy into catching the person using DNA matching.

Whereas, the Malaysian police do not believe Nora was abducted, raped and murdered, there's not sufficient hard evidence to lead them to conclude that, and IMO they will not proceed with the investigation just because they can't absolutely rule it out. They don't appear to have any DNA and even if they did, would not demand DNA samples from 20,000 men in the region and then go on a manhunt for the man who has not submitted it.

Even if her parents, her school, and everyone on Websleuths fervently believes she was the victim of a crime, IMO that will not persuade the Malaysian police. IMO, that's just the reality of it.

So how did he get Nicky out of the tent then?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Thanks for the link @kittythehare. The three testimonies you listed regarding Nora’s condition (mother, father and principal of Nora’s school) are the ones I was aware of and had read. I think what @Satchie was getting at (post quoted below) was that it would be helpful to hear from an independent medical expert on Nora’s condition and perhaps her own doctor to round out the picture we have of Nora’s abilities, perhaps in a more dispassionate way. The more information the better for the inquest. But perhaps those witnesses are still to come.

I would be very interested to hear from an independent medical expert too.

 

[Zuleika]

I would be very interested to hear from an independent medical expert too.

Do we know who the next witnesses will be?

 

[Chiatos]

So how did he get Nicky out of the tent then?

It is assumed that Nicky got out of the tent by himself to pee.
The rules were not to go to the toilet facilities (a small building) unaccompanied. The kids would have to call a leader to accompany them.
But the boys were allowed (or were used) to pee by themselves just a couple of meters behind the tent.
One of his tent mates had spoken (whispered) with Nicky in the tent in the very early morning hours when he had to go pee himself. Then he fell asleep. When everybody woke up, Nicky was missing.

 

[Chiatos]

So at today's hearing one of the two Malaysian pathologists said that the stomach was found empty (no food inside) and that the duodenum contained food particles (under the microscope) [3:02:40 and 3:37]
Thank goodness the family's lawyer asked questions about this.

* The second pathologist said:
"Not the common ulcers. I understand that there is a lot of stress in the area, it was difficult to go down (to the spot where Nora was found), you could see how horrible the circumstances were she was in. Why do you have such unnatural ulcers in a young girl? We want to know why. We wanted to know why the ulcers were so bad in this girl. Normally we expect one or two ulcers. But here there were a lot of ulcers. Very unusual. There must be something more than the normal stress. Being in a dark area, all alone."

Nora had unusually many ulcer perforations* [3:47] in her intestine and in her peritoneum [earlier in the film]. Date of death has been estimated the 10th of August. She must have already been in the process of dying when she reached that spot where she was found. Could she have reached there by herself?

 

[kittythehare]

So at today's hearing one of the two Malaysian pathologists said that the stomach was found empty (no food inside) and that the duodenum contained food particles (under the microscope) [3:02:40 and 3:37]
Thank goodness the family's lawyer asked questions about this.

* The second pathologist said:
"Not the common ulcers. I understand that there is a lot of stress in the area, it was difficult to go down (to the spot where Nora was found), you could see how horrible the circumstances were she was in. Why do you have such unnatural ulcers in a young girl? We want to know why. We wanted to know why the ulcers were so bad in this girl. Normally we expect one or two ulcers. But here there were a lot of ulcers. Very unusual. There must be something more than the normal stress. Being in a dark area, all alone."

Nora had unusually many ulcer perforations* [3:47] in her intestine and in her peritoneum [earlier in the film]. Date of death has been estimated the 10th of August. She must have already been in the process of dying when she reached that spot where she was found. Could she have reached there by herself?

Absolutely brilliant and really comprehensive autopsy by Malaysians.
One of the best I've ever heard.