Manorville Bodies: A Second Killer? Latest Remains found 02/17/2012

[Just K]

you dont need anything to get in, i pulled in at 3pm today, no one around to stop me. it's open and accessible from 3 points at all times.

the west entrance is for utility trucks and is always open, are you listening Atlantic City and Manorville? a Service Road. Jane Doe #10 was discarded inside this utility road.

A service road: another reason to suspect that whoever is dumping these bodies is using a vehicle that would not seem out of place...or would not seem suspicious. A utility service road...a utility worker/road work/park service vehicle would not be out of place.

If any of this has to do with a maintenance vehicle, of any sort, it might also explain the spacing between the GB4 bodies.

Every time I have ever zoomed in on the OP/remains recovery site (street view) I noticed a dark diagonal groove, in the asphalt near the gravel shoulder, that runs from the shoulder toward the roadway. The angle of the groove, in the asphalt, widens as it gets closer to the roadway. This could be the visual marker...for example, the such and such number of grooves from light post number such and such or mile marker such and such. Or possibly, the groove is made, inadvertently, by the vehicle or made, on purpose, by some piece of equipment.

 

[still]

Mile markers are interesting. They are used in the Florida Keys almost as addresses. Also a truck commonly used by hunters in the area would not arouse much suspicion.

 

[Theforeigner]

WHY has LE not yet released if the skeleton remains was male or female???
AND they should/would also, by now, know for how long the remains have been lying there.
AND they should/would also be able to tell wheter there was, any evidence of Cause of death, or not.
AND they should/would also be able to tell wheter there was any bodyparts missing or not.

It is 10 days! since the remains was found.

But NOTHING from LE so far, very frustrating!:maddening:

 

[truthspider]

A service road: another reason to suspect that whoever is dumping these bodies is using a vehicle that would not seem out of place...or would not seem suspicious. A utility service road...a utility worker/road work/park service vehicle would not be out of place.

If any of this has to do with a maintenance vehicle, of any sort, it might also explain the spacing between the GB4 bodies.

Every time I have ever zoomed in on the OP/remains recovery site (street view) I noticed a dark diagonal groove, in the asphalt near the gravel shoulder, that runs from the shoulder toward the roadway. The angle of the groove, in the asphalt, widens as it gets closer to the roadway. This could be the visual marker...for example, the such and such number of grooves from light post number such and such or mile marker such and such. Or possibly, the groove is made, inadvertently, by the vehicle or made, on purpose, by some piece of equipment.

You don't necesarily need a car that looks like a utility truck, you only need to feel comfortable using the road. For instance my reasoning for pulling in was as follows: no one is around to see me, even if a cop sees me he is probably going to let me off, even if he doesnt and he gives me a moving violation i know in this county i will have it knocked down to a 90 dollar fine for a non moving violation with no points on license (thanks pop).

So if you have someone who is a local, has the parks permit on his truck, and has badges in his wallet etc from his days as county executive director, police doc, you dont think twice about where you can drive on this island, you go 4x4ing in all the sand roads at all hours for "fishing and birding" whenever you feel like. And his truck does look official anyway!

 

[inspctrgadget]

You don't necesarily need a car that looks like a utility truck, you only need to feel comfortable using the road. For instance my reasoning for pulling in was as follows: no one is around to see me, even if a cop sees me he is probably going to let me off, even if he doesnt and he gives me a moving violation i know in this county i will have it knocked down to a 90 dollar fine for a non moving violation with no points on license (thanks pop).

So if you have someone who is a local, has the parks permit on his truck, and has badges in his wallet etc from his days as county executive director, police doc, you dont think twice about where you can drive on this island, you go 4x4ing in all the sand roads at all hours for "fishing and birding" whenever you feel like. And his truck does look official anyway!

Aren't you assuming that the killer used the utility road? Was this stated anywhere in MSM? I always read "40 feet from Ocean Parkway." 40 feet isn't that far. The FBI says most recovered bodies are within 30 feet of the road. This was just a human head in a bag. The head probably weighed 5-8 pounds. A decent shotput throw. I'm not sure that the utility road was used.

 

[truthspider]

Aren't you assuming that the killer used the utility road? Was this stated anywhere in MSM? I always read "40 feet from Ocean Parkway." 40 feet isn't that far. The FBI says most recovered bodies are within 30 feet of the road. This was just a human head in a bag. The head probably weighed 5-8 pounds. A decent shotput throw. I'm not sure that the utility road was used.

I am assuming it because Jane Doe 9098 was definitely discarded within this sanctuary via the service road, he could not have thrown or carried her legs from the parkway deep enough in that they would drift away in a storm surge, that is my opinion. Her legs in a bag managed to escape the brush and drift to blue point beach, while the entire sanctuary area was submerged in the 96 noreaster. If he used the road in 1995 why would he not use it to discard JD#10?

The service road itself is only about 100 ft off the parkway at that point, if you are going to throw a bag containing a head, might as well not be seen doing it, and we know that some of the remains off the parkway were "partially buried" but I don't know if it can be determined whether that was from a shovel or simply windswept sand.

 

[inspctrgadget]

I am assuming it because Jane Doe 9098 was definitely discarded within this sanctuary via the service road, he could not have thrown or carried her legs from the parkway deep enough in that they would drift away in a storm surge, that is my opinion. Her legs in a bag managed to escape the brush and drift to blue point beach, while the entire sanctuary area was submerged in the 96 noreaster. If he used the road in 1995 why would he not use it to discard JD#10?

The service road itself is only about 100 ft off the parkway at that point, if you are going to throw a bag containing a head, might as well not be seen doing it, and we know that some of the remains off the parkway were "partially buried" but I don't know if it can be determined whether that was from a shovel or simply windswept sand.

Just to challenge your thinking, you said:
"Jane Doe 9098 was definitely discarded within this sanctuary via the service road"

My understanding is that Jane Doe 9098 was discarded west of Tobay Beach. In my opinion, there's absolutely no way the SK discarded Jane Doe 9098 from the road. It's full of water, and he would not have been able to access that area from the utility road.

Take a look at the image I attached.

Red Line: Represents approx. 100 feet from the road (distance Jane Doe 9098 was found from Ocean Parkway)

Blue Line: Represents water

Yellow Line: Represents utility road


If you're right about the storm surge covering the area, it is definitely possible (in my opinion) for items 100 feet from OP to make their way to the Jones Channel, and from there make their way to Davis Park. There are huge canals that feed from Guggenheim Pond into the Jones Channel (see the northeast part of the pond as well as the easterly part of the pond), and then there are smaller arteries that feed off these main canals.

Add to that the fact that is seems all of the other bodies found along OP were discarded from the roadside and not a utility road, and I'm suspect about whether or not the SK used that utility road.

 

[truthspider]

I added an X to the location of where JD 9098's skull was found.
I suspect that the skull and legs were likely buried or deposited in the same area, and that both moved around considerably during the Nor Easter.

It is impossible for us to say, unless one of us made the deposit, exactly where 9098 was discarded, but I favor somewhere back off of the road. I see a pattern of a SK becoming more confident, lazy, comfortable and being less and less careful with his dumping or hiding. I think it makes sense that "airly on" (dormer accent) he tried very hard to conceal the identity and location of the victims so it is more likely that he pulled onto a secluded road to do it. That part of the parkway doesn't give you the same privacy as where the G4 were discarded.

Can you give us a reason for why you want for the sk to not have used the service road?

Where was it stated that 9098 was 100 ft from the parkway?

 

[inspctrgadget]

I added an X to the location of where JD 9098's skull was found.
I suspect that the skull and legs were likely buried or deposited in the same area, and that both moved around considerably during the Nor Easter.

It is impossible for us to say, unless one of us made the deposit, exactly where 9098 was discarded, but I favor somewhere back off of the road. I see a pattern of a SK becoming more confident, lazy, comfortable and being less and less careful with his dumping or hiding. I think it makes sense that "airly on" (dormer accent) he tried very hard to conceal the identity and location of the victims so it is more likely that he pulled onto a secluded road to do it. That part of the parkway doesn't give you the same privacy as where the G4 were discarded.

Can you give us a reason for why you want for the sk to not have used the service road?

Where was it stated that 9098 was 100 ft from the parkway?

Here's where it says 100 feet:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/11/us-crime-serialkiller-idUSTRE73A83I20110411

There are several other sources, I just can't find them this instant, but I know Newsday said 30 feet for JD#10 and 100 feet for JD9098.

By the way, why do we call her JD9098?

To answer your question, I really only care that our theories are properly informed. I'm willing to listen to the theory that the SK was familiar with either the utility road or the JFK Bird Sanctuary. I listened, and I guess I disagree because you're saying that the SK used the access road for JD-9098. I'm saying that the information we have is that the remains were recovered adjacent to the parkway. I agree that the utility road offers somewhat more privacy, but the whole area is completely desolate at night. You could spend 30-60 minutes on the north side of that highway at night and probably never see a car pass. I doubt he needed any more privacy.

I also doubt that the remains were moved around considerably given the "thicket", but I could be wrong.

By the way, if you could convince me that the SK likely used that utility road, I would be OK with supporting the theory because it would narrow our focus even further. As you know, one of my prime POIs is a duck hunter who might be familiar with one of the largest waterfowl wintering locations in the Northeast - the JFK Bird Sanctuary. I just am not convinced yet that he used the utility road. There was a 40 acre pond in the middle of the utility road and where JD9098's head was found, and your theory requires the movement of the remains a considerable distance. I mean, he could have dismembered her in the Tobay parking lot for all we know given the following:

- ""bay side" rest rooms, on the deck of the main pavilion, and in the parking lot where heads and tails, blood and guts fouled the park."
[ame="http://www.thefishingline.org/bbs/showthread.php?t=1585"]Tobay Beach Permits - The Fishing Line Forums[/ame]

But there's nothing suggesting that this occurred.

 

[Dwntwnslim]

9098 is Jane Doe's number in the NamUs database. I used it when starting her thread to differentiate her between Jane Doe 2000 and any other possible Jane Does that might be linked/found in relation to the LI perp.

 

[truthspider]

Here's where it says 100 feet:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/11/us-crime-serialkiller-idUSTRE73A83I20110411

There are several other sources, I just can't find them this instant, but I know Newsday said 30 feet for JD#10 and 100 feet for JD9098.

By the way, why do we call her JD9098?

https://identifyus.org/cases/9098

To answer your question, I really only care that our theories are properly informed. I'm willing to listen to the theory that the SK was familiar with either the utility road or the JFK Bird Sanctuary. I listened, and I guess I disagree because you're saying that the SK used the access road for JD-9098. I'm saying that the information we have is that the remains were recovered adjacent to the parkway. I agree that the utility road offers somewhat more privacy, but the whole area is completely desolate at night. You could spend 30-60 minutes on the north side of that highway at night and probably never see a car pass. I doubt he needed any more privacy.

I also doubt that the remains were moved around considerably given the "thicket", but I could be wrong.

When thicket is underwater it is known as "reef" and wouldn't stop anything that is floating in a bag on the surface.

By the way, if you could convince me that the SK likely used that utility road, I would be OK with supporting the theory because it would narrow our focus even further. As you know, one of my prime POIs is a duck hunter who might be familiar with one of the largest waterfowl wintering locations in the Northeast - the JFK Bird Sanctuary. I just am not convinced yet that he used the utility road. There was a 40 acre pond in the middle of the utility road and where JD9098's head was found, and your theory requires the movement of the remains a considerable distance. I mean, he could have dismembered her in the Tobay parking lot for all we know given the following:

Before I try to convice you he is intimately familiar with this service road, do you still agree he used the service roads in AC and Manorville?

Presumably the skull didn't float away because it wasn't in a plastic bag, and since I know the legs drifted east more than 15 miles, I can safely say the legs were far enough from the road to get swept up in the current. I don't know what this woman's legs weighed, but I know they were heavy enough that your shot put olympian didn't launch them from the road side to the shore, or what would be the shoreline during jan 6-8th 1996. So he either scratched his face off walking hundreds of feet through poison ivy and thorns with 50+ pounds of human remains in bags, or he wisely used the service road as we know he did in AC and Manorville.

- ""bay side" rest rooms, on the deck of the main pavilion, and in the parking lot where heads and tails, blood and guts fouled the park."
Tobay Beach Permits - The Fishing Line Forums

For the critic on the fishing line site, the parking lot smells foul at every low tide.

 

[snapdragon2]

I believe you stayed here... google maps is labeled via algo not a person, hence the error.

(By the way ..... she was murdered)

Yep, that's it. I just wonder if they flew over those marshlands as well. Of course you'd need a boat to get there, and you'd run the risk of sticking out like a sore thumb, since there's so few people there, so it's pretty unlikely anyone would choose to leave remains there. But you never know...it's very close to the Oak Beach Community, and certainly no-one goes back there (behind the cottages to the marshland.) If one had cause to go to Oak Island and not raise suspicion, it might be a "good" place to leave remains.

I'm confused by how you ended your response. Why did you feel the need to say "by the way...she was murdered"?
I personally lean towards the belief that she was (leaning so far I'm about to fall over) but I woudn't go so far as to pronounce that or correct someone on that point because I DON'T know for certain - it has not been conclusively determined so I'm not about to conclusively proclaim it. The question of whether or not she was murdered was not the topic of my post, so I don't understand why you felt compelled to write that.

 

[Bellaneph]

Aren't you assuming that the killer used the utility road? Was this stated anywhere in MSM? I always read "40 feet from Ocean Parkway." 40 feet isn't that far. The FBI says most recovered bodies are within 30 feet of the road. This was just a human head in a bag. The head probably weighed 5-8 pounds. A decent shotput throw. I'm not sure that the utility road was used.

Just a thought, but considering the amount of time and effort and "care and concern" the Manorville Killer had for these body parts, I really don't think he just went and "threw" any of them.

 

[Seaslug44]

Truth, do you expect us to accept that a set of legs in s plastic bag navigated over 30 miles of channels through the bay around sand bars, islands, wetlands, and miles of shallow water to a point East of it's origin during a Noreaster storm?

 

[the quiet girl]

Truth, do you expect us to accept that a set of legs in s plastic bag navigated over 30 miles of channels through the bay around sand bars, islands, wetlands, and miles of shallow water to a point East of it's origin during a Noreaster storm?

I dont know what that storm was like but, having lived through some pretty rough ones in the beach area it is not unheard of. Although that is pushing it.

 

[truthspider]

I'm confused by how you ended your response. Why did you feel the need to say "by the way...she was murdered"?
I personally lean towards the belief that she was (leaning so far I'm about to fall over) but I woudn't go so far as to pronounce that or correct someone on that point because I DON'T know for certain - it has not been conclusively determined so I'm not about to conclusively proclaim it. The question of whether or not she was murdered was not the topic of my post, so I don't understand why you felt compelled to write that.

I casually said, by the way she was murdered, because it seemed as if you were having "that debate" about their being deep enough water for SG to drown in 100 ft from the parkway behind a serial killers house. So instead of taking such questions too seriously, I just say "she was murdered."

I would argue that it is more conclusive that SG was murdered than most of the other victims. For all we know some of the other "victims" all died for some reason or another and our perp was into stealing cadavers then having his fun with them. SG called 911 and told various people they were trying to kill me then expired, which raises my definition of certainty.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

you've got

alec baldwin's call - released to the public
you've got - michael jackson's 911 call released to the public

you get all sorts of calls - released to the pubic

will the shannan gilbert 911 call ever be released to the public?
what the heck. you have a body now - can we please listen to the call?


:waitasec::waitasec::waitasec::waitasec::waitasec:

 

[Seaslug44]

I dont know what that storm was like but, having lived through some pretty rough ones in the beach area it is not unheard of. Although that is pushing it.

A theory that legs floated 30 miles east during a Noreaster is pushing the laws of physics. During one of those storms, the bay receives relentless winds that start out of the East and then turn out of the North East and then out of the North. This would push remains AWAY from the bay and further towards the side of the parkway. Even if an item was dislodged and managed to defy the laws of physics and float North into the bay during one of these storms, the winds would have carried it in the opposite direction towards Jones Inlet, not towards Fire Island.

 

[Peter Brendt]

A theory that legs floated 30 miles east during a Noreaster is pushing the laws of physics. During one of those storms, the bay receives relentless winds that start out of the East and then turn out of the North East and then out of the North. This would push remains AWAY from the bay and further towards the side of the parkway. Even if an item was dislodged and managed to defy the laws of physics and float North into the bay during one of these storms, the winds would have carried it in the opposite direction towards Jones Inlet, not towards Fire Island.

While I don't nuy for one minute in the theory, that Ac, Manorville and LISK are the same guy and all this service road discussion appears to me pretty off reality, I have to point out a little misunderstanding here:
If you talk about something drifting in water, wou have TWO factors. One is wind, one is current. They don't need to go the same way and if wind presses surface water in one direction, a current under the surface often goes in the opposite direction. So the real way, an object in the water will drift, depends mainly on how high it projects over the surface. Light, relative light objects go with the wind direction because the force of the wind on the emerged part is bigger than the force of the current on the submerged part of the object. While heavier objects tend to go with the current because the force of the current on the submerged parts is bigger than the force of the wind on the emerged parts. From a physical point of view a bad with a pair of legs is rather a heavy objects, in the average specific weight only a little lighter than water (1kg/100ccm). So you have to argue with the current, not the wind.

 

[truthspider]

Truth, do you expect us to accept that a set of legs in s plastic bag navigated over 30 miles of channels through the bay around sand bars, islands, wetlands, and miles of shallow water to a point East of it's origin during a Noreaster storm?

<modsnip>
Its less than 30 miles, and drifting that far without a storm is an everyday occurance, let alone historical flooding for the barrier island. You do not even want to get me started on what i know about the bay and currents. They drifted to blue point beach from somewhere ss, sure maybe he threw the legs in the bay in sayville or anywhere else along the bay, but seeing as he was putting the other identifyiable parts on jones island and the timing of the find, id have to say they came from the shorline of jones island down to bp beach. But i guess we could debate the sk dropping them from a hot air balloon or building a massive hydrolic slingshot if u want....