Manorville Bodies: A Second Killer? Latest Remains found 02/17/2012

[Peter Brendt]

We don't.
That post you quoted got that thought going. However, there has been long speculation about the Asian male victim found in female clothing. His death was different then the other victims and considered more violent. If I recall correctly and not that the others were not violent, imo. I believe the SK may have thought this person was female and when he learned the truth became unhinged hence the outcome. Which to me may infer hidden homosexuality tendencies below the surface one may say or repressed?

As a matter of fact, the theory was, that Maborville was the one, who bashed his head in. LISK hunts Craigslist escorts, he would have had enough time for a second and third look. But Manorville's female victims were street corner prostitutes, so women, who were picked up under pretty weak lighting conditions. But of course, as soon as we say, it's all the same guy, this Asian male doesn't make any sense anymore, like so many details.

 

[Bellaneph]

Growing up in NY and spending some time on Fire Island, the nearby town of Cherry Grove is notorious for it's large homosexual population. It's quite plausible that the homosexuals who frequent the area (mainly in the summer) get to know some of the more rural areas on that stretch. It's quite conceivable some of them might know about some out of the way place to meet and do whatever.

As for the Manorville SK being gay; typically people with homophobia are actually homosexuals or have homosexual thoughts that they believe (for whatever reason) that being gay is a problem and something they don't want to be. Hence, it's very difficult for homophobic people to acknowledge that part of themselves and they take it out on people who are openly gay. Why they do this is a whole other topic.

For this reason, I'm doubting the Manorville SK met up with anyone on the service road or in the area with the thought of exchanging sex and that's how he knew about the road. It would, however, explain why he freaked out on the transvestite guy who was killed. It's possible he knew about the "road"/"area" from people on the island talking about the places where the homosexuals gather - if they gather by that service road at all.

 

[Tugela]

As a matter of fact, the theory was, that Maborville was the one, who bashed his head in. LISK hunts Craigslist escorts, he would have had enough time for a second and third look. But Manorville's female victims were street corner prostitutes, so women, who were picked up under pretty weak lighting conditions. But of course, as soon as we say, it's all the same guy, this Asian male doesn't make any sense anymore, like so many details.

The MO is different, so it is not likely to be the same person.

 

[Tugela]

Growing up in NY and spending some time on Fire Island, the nearby town of Cherry Grove is notorious for it's large homosexual population. It's quite plausible that the homosexuals who frequent the area (mainly in the summer) get to know some of the more rural areas on that stretch. It's quite conceivable some of them might know about some out of the way place to meet and do whatever.

Far more straight people know about the area though, so by that logic it is far more likely that the perp is straight.

The only reason why anyone might think he was gay is the crossdresser, but that particular body doesnt match the MO of the others, beyond being in the same general isolated area. So, I don't see anything in what we know to support the idea that the perp is gay.

I think if anyone gives it much thought, an isolated area is a good place for a serial killer who doesnt want to be caught to dump a body, and as such this area has probably been considered by a good many SKs and other killers as a dump spot. I doubt that only one killer has considered the area for dumping. But perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Far more straight people know about the area though, so by that logic it is far more likely that the perp is straight.

The only reason why anyone might think he was gay is the crossdresser, but that particular body doesnt match the MO of the others, beyond being in the same general isolated area. So, I don't see anything in what we know to support the idea that the perp is gay.

I think if anyone gives it much thought, an isolated area is a good place for a serial killer who doesnt want to be caught to dump a body, and as such this area has probably been considered by a good many SKs and other killers as a dump spot. I doubt that only one killer has considered the area for dumping. But perhaps I'm wrong about that.

I tend to agree with you on this point, Tugela. I don't believe our guy killed the mother and child, or the male tranvestite. I also don't think he killed the victims whose body parts are connected to Manorville. But I couldn't give you a solid reason as to why I believe that, other than it simply doesn't fit what I THINK I know about this guy.

Atlantic City, on the other hand, does fit, imo. The similarities are just too striking for me to ignore.

All just my opinion, of course.

 

[the quiet girl]

Basically, that is nothing but the scientific worded theory, that we fear more what we know than what we not know. Someone, who reacts on homoerotic cues can fry his own mind all the time with "am I maybe gay". Someone, who doesn't care often comes not even to the idea to fear himself. However, since Freud came to this idea, we've learned, even some of his ideas were great, some not so great.
And because it's so funny, a little story from my life. I had for years all four months some kind of gentlemen's gathering which included some rare whikeys and equally rare cigarrs. It was the most homophobic, who always hesitated to grab in the humidor. Just this little second of hesitation.
And then, another however, we live in a time, gays jump often in everybodies face, which can make even those who otherwise couldn't care less can bring up the next palm tree. So, in a time, psychology is more and more influenced by social expectation, social denial and social dynamics, I have some doubts, this can't be studied in such an isolated view as this study suggests. Just my opinion.

It is a professional opinion (a science) not just a worded theory, the very same could be said about the professional profiling being done with this case.

 

[the quiet girl]

As a matter of fact, the theory was, that Maborville was the one, who bashed his head in. LISK hunts Craigslist escorts, he would have had enough time for a second and third look. But Manorville's female victims were street corner prostitutes, so women, who were picked up under pretty weak lighting conditions. But of course, as soon as we say, it's all the same guy, this Asian male doesn't make any sense anymore, like so many details.

That has not been my thoughts but. I am leaning towards this being one. So with that said and my post it would make sense.

 

[truthspider]

Please take notice to the two attachments. The first is a snapshot of the bay within seven miles of the sanctuary. Notice that this section of the bay has less water than it does islands/grasslands. The second image has a white circle on the left where the sanctuary is and a white circle on the far right where the legs washed up.

I don't have time to get into how the tides/currents work in this bay except to say that there are no currents that run all the way from Zach's bay in the West to Davis Park in the East because there are three inlets that effect the currents here (Jones Inlet, Fire Island Inlet & Moriches Inlet).

If you don't think it's 30 miles, simply look at the towns just north of both locations (Seaford & Bellport) and do a Mapquest to see the distance between the two towns.

Slug, you should use Bayport as your mainland reference for where the legs washed up at BluePoint beach, Bellport is ~5 miles too far east. Most of the "islands" you see on your map would have been underwater from Jan 6 - 8th 1996. Also, your circle of where the legs washed up is off by just over a mile. The legs were found on the bayside of bluepoint beach which is 1 mile west of the harbor at Davis Park, where your circle is.

I still don't see you explaining how the legs washed up on that shore if they didn't drift there. Was the SK fishing in the bay off of blue point beach (no fish) in the winter and threw the legs onto the shore there? Since you are so certain they didn't drift there you must have a plausible explanation for how they did get there?


I also attached the map showing the where the mamaroneck victim was found, suitcase and torso in mamaroneck and legs in cold spring harbor, do you also suggest that these legs didn't drift onto the shores of cold spring harbor? Did he make 2 separate drops one of which was in the water or on the shore line? I don't understand why anyone is arguing against things in the water drifting.....

 

[inspctrgadget]

And as for the gay thing, I don't know man, you sound pretty strange describing homosexuals as deviant. Are you relegious?

Anyway, I think we know the perp isn't a fan of homosexuality since he bashed in the XXXXX head... only common sense required for that dedcution...IMO...

I certainly hope you join me on this Sundays WebSleuths radio talkshow to chat about the LISK investigation...
Please, please, please I need to meet you even if only 'on air' during the radio show. I dearly want the opportunity to pick your brain and hope you join us.

finkle, einhorn, finkle, einhorn...

I wasn't saying all gay people are deviant, and I thought I made that clear. I was simply saying that "cruising" (i.e., risky public sex) "deviates" from normally acceptable sexual behavior, gay or straight. I'm pro-gay, I'm pro-gay marriage, so I hope I didn't offend anyone or make anyone think I'm anti-gay. And as far as religion, I've guess you could say I've got the same philosophy as Bill Maher.

And while I think that the radio show is a great format and look forward to listening, I think I need to decline. My girlfriend would break up with me if she knew I'm a walking LISK encyclopedia, and I don't want to lie to her to sneak off for a Sunday night call.

But back to the topic, I doubt that the Asian male "surprised" the SK. I think most transvestites would be open about who they were and what they were looking for, specifically for the reason that "duping" johns is incredibly risky.

Like you said, anyone can easily imagine a duped john "freaking out" and harming a male prostitute that they believed to be a woman. That's why I think the SK actively sought out the "experience" and THEN freaked out and murdered with violence.

I also doubt the probing nature of how the serial killer discovered that area. Me and my friends probed the whole of Ocean Parkway looking for spots to drink beer, hang out, etc. If any of us had known about that area, we would have definitely used it on many occasions. So I'm pretty sure that if the SK used that road, he's gay.

 

[the quiet girl]

regarding bodies/remains in water don't they float after a while anyway?

 

[inspctrgadget]

Slug, you should use Bayport as your mainland reference for where the legs washed up at BluePoint beach, Bellport is ~5 miles too far east. Most of the "islands" you see on your map would have been underwater from Jan 6 - 8th 1996. Also, your circle of where the legs washed up is off by just over a mile. The legs were found on the bayside of bluepoint beach which is 1 mile west of the harbor at Davis Park, where your circle is.

I still don't see you explaining how the legs washed up on that shore if they didn't drift there. Was the SK fishing in the bay off of blue point beach (no fish) in the winter and threw the legs onto the shore there? Since you are so certain they didn't drift there you must have a plausible explanation for how they did get there?


I also attached the map showing the where the mamaroneck victim was found, suitcase and torso in mamaroneck and legs in cold spring harbor, do you also suggest that these legs didn't drift onto the shores of cold spring harbor? Did he make 2 separate drops one of which was in the water or on the shore line? I don't understand why anyone is arguing against things in the water drifting.....

I know the bay well, as I've boated there my whole life. If the legs went into the Jones Channel behind Zach's Bay, or literally anywhere along the Jones Channel which runs parallel to Ocean Parkway, I can promise that they made their way out to the ocean quickly via the Jones Inlet. The tide changes every 6 hours. The tide comes in, fills up the bay, and then during a tide change the channels become fast flowing rivers. Under the bridges, like the Wantagh and Meadowbrook, the current can probably reach 15-20 miles an hour, maybe faster. It can be very dangerous trying to navigate a boat through there at certain times.

Looking at the April 1-2, 1996 Nor'easter, it seems like it was mostly snow in NY. Am I wrong about this? I would think snow would entomb any remains, not necessarily break them free because of flooding. Does anyone have a link showing this storm resulted in flooding on Long Island?

 

[Just K]

TruthSpider, let's say you're right. Let's say that the SK knew about the road.

Check this out...

http://www.cruisinggays.com/wantagh/cruising-areas/48171-jfk-bird-sanctuary/

I attached some images of what I believe to be dudes hooking up in the parking lot of the bird sanctuary. Notice how these cars are parked backwards, probably to spot the police if they drive up on them.

I don't see any barrier that would restrict someone from going further down the road into the bird sanctuary. And there is only 1 exit - your "service road" entrance.

I can tell you I grew up near this area, spent many days at the beach and crawled all over the dunes there at Zach's Bay and I never knew that "service road" was there, or that it connected all the way to Tobay Beach. So I think if the serial killer DID in fact know about that service road, there are only two explanations - he was either an avid birder or a deviant homosexual. I'm not using the word "deviant" negatively. It's just that hooking up with random strangers in broad daylight in public is risky (STDs, arrest). But we know our serial killer takes risks, so it somewhat fits. Perhaps using the bird sanctuary as a dumping ground excited him sexually.

Now, I've still got a problem with how JD-9098's head ended up close to the parkway, but I've looked carefully at the map of those trails where people "Get out of [their] car and walk thru the many trails on the south side of parking area. Very cruisy and many private areas."

It seems to me that it IS possible to make you're way over the canals. There appear to be little "land bridges" on all of the north/south canals, so my assumption is that this area is actually walkable, dissimilar from the "thicket" closer to the road. So the SK could have parked in the lot, waited till all the cars were gone, walked south through the trails and deposited JD-9098's remains in the "thicket" closer to the highway. See attached file with red indicator line for a route that I believe he could have taken.

Somehow, her legs made their way into the water. It doesn't really matter how - maybe a Nor'easter flooding, maybe he threw them off a bridge. The relevant information here is the possibility that the SK knew about that road, and if so, he's probably extremely active in the "underground" gay lifestyle. After all, there was a dead transvestite found in his dumping grounds.

All of this is very speculative. It's possible that the SK never knew about that road and actually made these two dumps from Ocean Parkway. But I must admit, the road that TruthSpider is talking about is very specific. Someone would have had to travel that road to even know it was there. And it's the only "road" for miles, so pulling over randomly right there would be a stunning coincidence. The placement of a woman's head (JD#10) at the terminus of a road frequented by homosexuals seems completely coincidental or highly relevant.

So now we know (or at least can logically infer) that the serial killer is gay, assuming that the map location of where JD#10 was found is correct. He's probably still "in the closet" if he's resorting to these types of rendezvous.

Is that the Jones Beach parking lot referred to as lot 6. If not and it is another parking lot, then there may be two dump site connections to areas that are known to be associated with "hookups." Some time ago I posted a news article that told the history of Jones Beach...I'll go look for it.

ETA: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7495057&highlight=Jones+Beach+Parking#post7495057

 

[Peter Brendt]

The MO is different, so it is not likely to be the same person.

Oh, I'm totally aware of that, tell that those please, who argue here, this is all the same giy (including AC) and he only "evolved".

 

[inspctrgadget]

Oh, I'm totally aware of that, tell that those please, who argue here, this is all the same giy (including AC) and he only "evolved".

I don't think that M.O. and signature are the same thing. The "theory" says something like "M.O. can change, and frequently does, but signature doesn't."

The idea of signature is a debated topic. So what's the signature for those of us who subscribe to the single killer theory?

I can't speak for everyone, but the police have proposed the fact (reasonable assumption) that the victims were all sex workers and the fact that they were all dropped essentially in the same location (geographic proximity). The manner of death hasn't been officially released as far as I know, but there's nothing saying that the manner of death wasn't exactly the same for all involved (i.e., asphyxiation). That is of course with the exception of the Asian male who had evidence of bludgeoning, and excepting Shannan Gilbert as well for the moment who we're not sure died of a homicide (and Baby Doe, now that I think about it, but whom doesn't fit the victim typology).

There's other examples of signatures that can definitively tie together separate murders. DNA is probably the best example. So is posturing and object insertion.

Note: "John Douglas, the first full-time profiler at the behavioral science division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Academy in Quantico, Virginia, thinks the killer's signature is a better guide to behavior than his MO. While the MO may change as the killer comes up with a better technique, the emotional reason he commits the crime does not change."

But even these "signatures" are extremely rare, and the use of MO/signature in tying together different homicides is hotly contested.

Here's the counterargument for using signatures and M.O.'s:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/profiling/s_k_myths/8.html
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/profiling/s_k_myths/9.html

The only reason I don't fully subscribe to the AC theory is the difference in location. My understanding is that SKs operate where they're comfortable and don't usually do interstate travel unless their job takes them there.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I don't think that M.O. and signature are the same thing. The "theory" says something like "M.O. can change, and frequently does, but signature doesn't."

The idea of signature is a debated topic. So what's the signature for those of us who subscribe to the single killer theory?

I can't speak for everyone, but the police have proposed the fact (reasonable assumption) that the victims were all sex workers and the fact that they were all dropped essentially in the same location (geographic proximity). The manner of death hasn't been officially released as far as I know, but there's nothing saying that the manner of death wasn't exactly the same for all involved (i.e., asphyxiation). That is of course with the exception of the Asian male who had evidence of bludgeoning, and excepting Shannan Gilbert as well for the moment who we're not sure died of a homicide (and Baby Doe, now that I think about it, but whom doesn't fit the victim typology).

There's other examples of signatures that can definitively tie together separate murders. DNA is probably the best example. So is posturing and object insertion.

Note: "John Douglas, the first full-time profiler at the behavioral science division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Academy in Quantico, Virginia, thinks the killer's signature is a better guide to behavior than his MO. While the MO may change as the killer comes up with a better technique, the emotional reason he commits the crime does not change."

But even these "signatures" are extremely rare, and the use of MO/signature in tying together different homicides is hotly contested.

Here's the counterargument for using signatures and M.O.'s:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/profiling/s_k_myths/8.html
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/profiling/s_k_myths/9.html

The only reason I don't fully subscribe to the AC theory is the difference in location. My understanding is that SKs operate where they're comfortable and don't usually do interstate travel unless their job takes them there.

You're right, sloppy choice of words, for which I apologize. Technically MO + ritual = signature.

So let me rephrase it:
Signatures as well as the mere MOs in those cases are too different to indicate it's the same killer.

Now we are at the same point, but it is formally correct worded.

 

[inspctrgadget]

You're right, sloppy choice of words, for which I apologize. Technically MO + ritual = signature.

So let me rephrase it:
Signatures as well as the mere MOs in those cases are too different to indicate it's the same killer.

Now we are at the same point, but it is formally correct worded.

The only thing that seems different to me is that some were dismembered, some were not. And that can be explained as a change in M.O., which is not uncommon. Like Pat Brown said, a SK may cut themselves during a dismembering, or perhaps it was too messy, and they opted to cease that part of their M.O.

We don't know what the ritual was, other than the probability that there was some element of "picking up" or "luring" the women. It seems like he did some of that in person, some of that online.

The sadistic phone calls are also different, but that only happened for sure in 1/4 instances among the GB4.

Ocean Parkway is a 15.59-mile parkway. If you consider that both west and east lanes have a shoulder, we're talking about 31.18 miles. The dump sites were all confined to (or can be associated with) a 2 mile section on the north side, with the exception of JD-9098 and Shannan Gilbert. So we're talking about a 6.4% chance of multiple serial killers picking that exact stretch.

Pretty slim.

 

[truthspider]

I know the bay well, as I've boated there my whole life. If the legs went into the Jones Channel behind Zach's Bay, or literally anywhere along the Jones Channel which runs parallel to Ocean Parkway, I can promise that they made their way out to the ocean quickly via the Jones Inlet. The tide changes every 6 hours. The tide comes in, fills up the bay, and then during a tide change the channels become fast flowing rivers. Under the bridges, like the Wantagh and Meadowbrook, the current can probably reach 15-20 miles an hour, maybe faster. It can be very dangerous trying to navigate a boat through there at certain times.

Looking at the April 1-2, 1996 Nor'easter, it seems like it was mostly snow in NY. Am I wrong about this? I would think snow would entomb any remains, not necessarily break them free because of flooding. Does anyone have a link showing this storm resulted in flooding on Long Island?

It was Jan 6-8, 1996, not April.

Yes, I posted it months ago, Gilgo alone lost over 50 feet of sand, there was heavy tidal surge and coastal flooding, homes on fire island were pulled into the ocean as well as a restaurant that had been there for 50+ years. The downtown area of ocean beach (the largest community on fire island) was 2 feet underwater, that means specifically that the tidal surge in the bay was of historic proportions.

Your traditional analysis of the flow of water in the bay is weak, and doesn't account for non-traditional events. Currents during this storm would not have been typical. Moreover massive tidal surge overwhelms typical tide cycles. Come on IG you are better than this.

Again, if they didn't drift to BluePoint beach, how did they end up on the shoreline there?


maybe he was making a statement? nahhhh...

OYSTERS "R" IN TROUBLE

Charles Hackett, No 1 / 2003

Oysters lead unhappy lives
Because you see they have no wives,
So when a bluepoint wants a mate
He cannot get himself a date
With some attractive little necks
For after all there is no sex
In bivalve land and life is dull
And love affairs are void and null,
Inspired not by Valentines
But "oysters 'R' in season" signs,
With courtship bleak and scientific
Apogamous and unterrific
Devoid of all romantic bliss
Due to parthenogenesis.


The above poem was written by Charles Joseph Hackett, late of Oak Beach and Point Lookout. It was discovered by his daughter-in-law, Barbara Hackett, during her search for items to display at the 2002 Heritage Program.

 

[Bellaneph]

I wasn't saying all gay people are deviant, and I thought I made that clear. I was simply saying that "cruising" (i.e., risky public sex) "deviates" from normally acceptable sexual behavior, gay or straight. I'm pro-gay, I'm pro-gay marriage, so I hope I didn't offend anyone or make anyone think I'm anti-gay. And as far as religion, I've guess you could say I've got the same philosophy as Bill Maher.

And while I think that the radio show is a great format and look forward to listening, I think I need to decline. My girlfriend would break up with me if she knew I'm a walking LISK encyclopedia, and I don't want to lie to her to sneak off for a Sunday night call.

But back to the topic, I doubt that the Asian male "surprised" the SK. I think most transvestites would be open about who they were and what they were looking for, specifically for the reason that "duping" johns is incredibly risky.

Like you said, anyone can easily imagine a duped john "freaking out" and harming a male prostitute that they believed to be a woman. That's why I think the SK actively sought out the "experience" and THEN freaked out and murdered with violence.

I also doubt the probing nature of how the serial killer discovered that area. Me and my friends probed the whole of Ocean Parkway looking for spots to drink beer, hang out, etc. If any of us had known about that area, we would have definitely used it on many occasions. So I'm pretty sure that if the SK used that road, he's gay.

You don't purposely pick up a transvestite prostitute and then freak out. You "freak out" because you didn't know. It's a lot different for a male to prey on a woman than a male. You need a different thought process and a different plan. Since the MO on the Asian guy was different, the Manorville SK not knowing would explain the change in MO. Maybe the asian guy assumed the Manorville SK knew he was a transvestite when he picked him up, but in actuality, he didn't know.

Does anyone know exactly when the Asian male's body was found?

 

[Bellaneph]

The only thing that seems different to me is that some were dismembered, some were not. And that can be explained as a change in M.O., which is not uncommon. Like Pat Brown said, a SK may cut themselves during a dismembering, or perhaps it was too messy, and they opted to cease that part of their M.O.

We don't know what the ritual was, other than the probability that there was some element of "picking up" or "luring" the women. It seems like he did some of that in person, some of that online.

The sadistic phone calls are also different, but that only happened for sure in 1/4 instances among the GB4.

Ocean Parkway is a 15.59-mile parkway. If you consider that both west and east lanes have a shoulder, we're talking about 31.18 miles. The dump sites were all confined to (or can be associated with) a 2 mile section on the north side, with the exception of JD-9098 and Shannan Gilbert. So we're talking about a 6.4% chance of multiple serial killers picking that exact stretch.

Pretty slim.

From my understanding, there are quite a few differences. For one, the Manorville SK started a lot earlier. If he was the same as the Gilgo Beach SK, he would probably be in his 50's by now. Not that it's not possible, but it's not as likely and it doesn't fit the "profile."

Secondly, as another poster said on this thread earlier on, you don't get less evolved as time goes by, you get more evolved. The Gilgo Beach killings seem immature in comparison to the Manorville SK.

Third, the dismemberment and the keeping of the body parts for all those years is completely different from the Gilgo Beach killer. The Gilgo Beach killer just dumped his victims.

Fourth, if they were the same killer, why would the SK (who has been keeping the body parts all this time according to the 1 killer theory) then go back to where the police already found his dumping grounds and put the body parts in the same spot? Unless he's just toying with the police (which is possible), he would find another new spot that's unknown to get rid of the body parts he's saved for so long and is now getting rid of to avoid suspicion.

Although only the killer(s) themselves know for sure, I think it's much more likely to be the work of at least 2 killers and the Manorville SK purposely put the body parts in Gilgo to show the Gilgo killer he's the "man" in charge.

 

[truthspider]

attached items should give everyone an idea of the REALITY of what happens in nor easters with tidal surge in and around the north side of ocean parkway.

If Jane Doe 9098's remains were even a few yards off the parkway (at some locations) the remains could have been washed away, as the parkway had been in danger of breaching during similar storms.

Those "islands" weren't stopping anything floating on the surface in a plastic bag.

I think it is possible that there are other remains prior to jane doe 9098 (late 1995) that may never be recovered due to the storms from 1989 - 1996.

And as for the 4000+ cubis yards of debris left on the beaches, if that much debris can drift and end up there......