Manorville Bodies: A Second Killer? Latest Remains found 02/17/2012

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Would it be uncalled for to ask that some images of remains be hidden behind a spoiler tag? I was thinking how lately it has gotten to myself personally but, then thought my goodness what about the families of the victims. Sure they may be all over the net but to provide some respect to them and to extend a hand cannot hurt.
idk how the rest of you guys feel on this
honest question
I totally agree. In fact, your request is reminiscent of why the "Earnhardt Family Protection Act" ( link ) was enacted in Florida. It's one thing to sleuth these tragic cases. However, hopefully people will remain cognizant wrt to the victim's loved ones whose lives have been forever changed by these tragedies.
 
FYI, I have copies of escort adds, with real pictures, of 3 of the GB4 victims:

Amber Costello
Melissa Barthelemy
Megan Waterman

Only concerning Maureen Brainard-Barnes, I have not found any adds at all so far.

SO, I belive the killer was indeed able to pick his victims by looks.

And by the way, just take a look at those pictures, do you really think that it is a coincident that they look that much alike?

If you read any of the escort boards one of the biggest complaints is that the women DON'T look anything like the photos posted in their adds, primarily the type posted on Backpage, Craigs List and similar sites. The reason being is that they frequently post someone else's pictures, typically someone more attractive and younger, to act as bait for customers. Face shots are rare. Most of the ones that show faces are actually stolen pictures of print models or pornstars who look roughly like the girl advertising, often there is no resemblance at all. Even when the photo really is the girl, it has usually been taken years earlier. There is apparently even some web site that the customers use to check where else that particular picture has been posted, there is quite a bit of recycling where pictures are picked up off the web and reused. It is a very common problem, so common in fact that the guys who use the services of these women automatically assume that the pictures are fake.

The women don't want anyone who knows them recognizing them, that is why they fake the pictures. Other things they frequently lie about are their ages and physical condition. A common complaint on those boards about the girls is that they are significantly older and/or heavier than their adds claim. If you think those adds are accurate, you are sadly mistaken.

If the SK was using the services of these women he would know that without question. Whatever criteria he is using, it is extremely unlikely that he is matching someone else's victims by look based on whatever they are advertising.

In any case, even if you have found pictures of these girls in adds, chances are that the girl advertising with the picture is actually someone else. We are not talking about people who abide by truth in advertising standards here.
 
AC4, Nov 2006: 4 prositutes killed and dumped 4 in a row

GB4 2007/2010: 4 prositutes killed and dumped 4 in a row

ATLANTICACandLIvictimsfoundmap.jpg

The fact that they are in a row is not by design, it is because the killer was dumping in the same general spot, and the row was defined by the road that ran parallel.

What you have observed is not that the killer is arranging the victims, but that people build roads straight.
 
If you read any of the escort boards one of the biggest complaints is that the women DON'T look anything like the photos posted in their adds, primarily the type posted on Backpage, Craigs List and similar sites. The reason being is that they frequently post someone else's pictures, typically someone more attractive and younger, to act as bait for customers. Face shots are rare. Most of the ones that show faces are actually stolen pictures of print models or pornstars who look roughly like the girl advertising, often there is no resemblance at all. Even when the photo really is the girl, it has usually been taken years earlier. There is apparently even some web site that the customers use to check where else that particular picture has been posted, there is quite a bit of recycling where pictures are picked up off the web and reused. It is a very common problem, so common in fact that the guys who use the services of these women automatically assume that the pictures are fake.

The women don't want anyone who knows them recognizing them, that is why they fake the pictures. Other things they frequently lie about are their ages and physical condition. A common complaint on those boards about the girls is that they are significantly older and/or heavier than their adds claim. If you think those adds are accurate, you are sadly mistaken.

If the SK was using the services of these women he would know that without question. Whatever criteria he is using, it is extremely unlikely that he is matching someone else's victims by look based on whatever they are advertising.

In any case, even if you have found pictures of these girls in adds, chances are that the girl advertising with the picture is actually someone else. We are not talking about people who abide by truth in advertising standards here.

Thanks for explaning, but I already knew all this.
I have read/reseached those websites where men discuss prostitutes etc. for quite some time.
For some reason you seem not to care that there are adds from at least 3 of the 4 GB4 victims with 100% real photos of them in the ads. Your choice, however IMO odd.

If the SK was using the services of these women he would know that without question.
Yes if the killer used thise girls services, meaning he met with them, he would know 100% what they looked like, and could therefore finaly choose them as victims by their looks, meaning that what he had picked by pictures look on fex. Crags list, also fit in reality.



Whatever criteria he is using, it is extremely unlikely that he is matching someone else's victims by look based on whatever they are advertising.

I belive you have not understand my theorie.
I'll explain in a simpler way:
I belive that the killer of the 4 Atlantic City in Oct/nov 2006 is THE SAME killer who killed the 4 Long Island/ Gilbert Beach victims.
SO, he did NOT, as you said; " matching someone else's victims", no, he was matching HIS OWN previous victims.

Hope this helps.
 
The fact that they are in a row is not by design, it is because the killer was dumping in the same general spot, and the row was defined by the road that ran parallel.

What you have observed is not that the killer is arranging the victims, but that people build roads straight.




Ok, I sense that you are determined to disprove my theorie, and that is ok with me.
But please then provide examples of other serial killer cases that show that a killer have placed his victims on a straight line/ row ( of 4 or more) with that short distance between them as in the AC4 and GB4 cases.
I don´t know of any, but I´m looking forward to your examples.


And :

The fact that they are in a row is not by design, it is because the killer was dumping in the same general spot, and the row was defined by the road that ran parallel

How would you know this?
Only the killer knows why he placed the victims the way he did.

Concerning the GB4 victims; the police have stated that the victims were killed elswere, so the killer choose to place them within this very short distance of each other, side by side, on a row, on the same side of th road.
I mean he could have, which most serial killers do, spread the dumping of his victims to different loactions (on LI), so that if someone find one of his victims, they dont necessarily find his other victims.
The fact that this killer placed thise GB4 victims in a row, close to each other, in the very same location, IMO point to that he probably wanted them to be found, just like the AC4 victims.

And concerning the AC4 victims, same thing, he could have choosen to place his victims in different locations (within the AC area), but he didn´t, he choose to place them in the very same location, in a row, on the same side of the road, all 4 victims with their heads facing east, and VERY close to each other, with nearly the same distance between each victims.
The fact that this killer placed thise AC4 victims in a row, close to each other, in the very same location, IMO point to that he probably wanted them to be found, just like the GB4 victims.



What you have observed is not that the killer is arranging the victims, but that people build roads straight

You word your opinions as if it they were facts, please know that it is NOT... it is your opinion, and that is different from facts.

Thanks in advance.

TF
 
Manorville and the suitcase, trashbag and container murders occurred much earlier than AC4 and GB4. If Manorville and the other earlier cases are the work of the same person then it may be easily explained by the fact that the killer was younger, less experienced, less impulse controlled and more worried about discovery.

After decades of no discovery and very few victims ID'd, perhaps he became more comfortable with taking his time re: keeping the woman and even their remains, doing whatever he does with them and then disposing of them in a more organized manner.

The dismembering and scattering of the remains, if it was to hide the IDs of the victims, was not disorganized, per se. It is possible that the dismembering, preparation and packing up of the parts as well as his disposal site choice was all very well planned out and done in a place that may or may not still be available to him.

Just think about the emotional growth process, the employment, lifestyle and economic changes that occur during the life cycle between being a very young adult to becoming a middle aged adult. Nearly everyone develops or evolves...some even devolve...over those two decades between 20 and 40 years old. So, why wouldn't that be true for a SK as well?
 
I don't know, I heard that at the location of one of the G4 remains there was a trail of peanut M&Ms left, but at the site of the AC victims it was skittles, and the location in Manorville was littered with cracker jacks.....

clearly 3 different serial killers...:floorlaugh:
 
Ok, I sense that you are determined to disprove my theorie, and that is ok with me.
But please then provide examples of other serial killer cases that show that a killer have placed his victims on a straight line/ row ( of 4 or more) with that short distance between them as in the AC4 and GB4 cases.
I don´t know of any, but I´m looking forward to your examples.


And :



How would you know this?
Only the killer knows why he placed the victims the way he did.

Concerning the GB4 victims; the police have stated that the victims were killed elswere, so the killer choose to place them within this very short distance of each other, side by side, on a row, on the same side of th road.
I mean he could have, which most serial killers do, spread the dumping of his victims to different loactions (on LI), so that if someone find one of his victims, they dont necessarily find his other victims.
The fact that this killer placed thise GB4 victims in a row, close to each other, in the very same location, IMO point to that he probably wanted them to be found, just like the AC4 victims.

And concerning the AC4 victims, same thing, he could have choosen to place his victims in different locations (within the AC area), but he didn´t, he choose to place them in the very same location, in a row, on the same side of the road, all 4 victims with their heads facing east, and VERY close to each other, with nearly the same distance between each victims.
The fact that this killer placed thise AC4 victims in a row, close to each other, in the very same location, IMO point to that he probably wanted them to be found, just like the GB4 victims.





You word your opinions as if it they were facts, please know that it is NOT... it is your opinion, and that is different from facts.

Thanks in advance.

TF

I pulled a map of the Green River Killer victim map.. Notice that the ones along the 99 are lined in a row.. The others away from the roads are in clusters. Same killer, diffrent disposal techniques.....

mc9nde.jpg
 
Here is a proff report that probably can learn us somthing:

http://goo.gl/mMWZr

Behavioral Science and the Law
Behav. Sci. Law 19: 595-610 (2001)
DOI: 10.1002/bsl.431

RESEARCH REPORT
Spatial Patterns of Serial Murder:
An Analysis of Disposal Site Location Choice

Samantha Lundrigan, Ph.D., and David Canter, Ph.D
Canter is one of several leading figures in the concept of crime mapping, specifically, in the area of jeopardy surfaces. IIrc, Rossmo coined the term, "Jeopardy Surface," which basically attempts to mathematically identify "hotspots" based upon commonly held views wrt human behavior. The resulting hotspots would then be used by LE to rule in/out potential suspects. This emerging tech is, however, still in its infancy. ( link ) Even so, it does show some promise. So much so, that the National Institute of Justice has a dedicated section in this regard. ( link )
 
Thanks for explaning, but I already knew all this.
I have read/reseached those websites where men discuss prostitutes etc. for quite some time.
For some reason you seem not to care that there are adds from at least 3 of the 4 GB4 victims with 100% real photos of them in the ads. Your choice, however IMO odd.


Yes if the killer used thise girls services, meaning he met with them, he would know 100% what they looked like, and could therefore finaly choose them as victims by their looks, meaning that what he had picked by pictures look on fex. Crags list, also fit in reality.





I belive you have not understand my theorie.
I'll explain in a simpler way:
I belive that the killer of the 4 Atlantic City in Oct/nov 2006 is THE SAME killer who killed the 4 Long Island/ Gilbert Beach victims.
SO, he did NOT, as you said; " matching someone else's victims", no, he was matching HIS OWN previous victims.

Hope this helps.


There is a bit of a resemblance in looks between the AC and GB killings, but there are a few differences in MO. Peter Brendt posted some good details about these differences a page or two ago. Some of them included a kind of religious positioning of the bodies East in the AC killings and their shoes were missing. Also the speed at which each of the killers needed a fix were different also.

While I like your theory - and it still leaves the door open for 2 Long Island Serial Killers - I'm not sure that having a basic resemblance qualifies as a connection. The fact that there are 4 bodies on LI is probably just because Shannan's intervention messed up a 5th scenario for the GB killer and then the police came and found the dumping grounds so there couldn't easily be any more.

You are also going on the assumption that the GB killer only met with the 4 girls whose bodies were found. Idt those were the only prostitutes he arranged meetings with; those were the ones he killed. I doubt he killed everyone he met with.
 
I pulled a map of the Green River Killer victim map.. Notice that the ones along the 99 are lined in a row.. The others away from the roads are in clusters. Same killer, diffrent disposal techniques.....

mc9nde.jpg

wow wow wow
GREAT work nutzger


:great::great::great::great::great::great:

:rollercoaster::rollercoaster::rollercoaster::rollercoaster:

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

:yourock:
 
Ok, I sense that you are determined to disprove my theorie, and that is ok with me.
But please then provide examples of other serial killer cases that show that a killer have placed his victims on a straight line/ row ( of 4 or more) with that short distance between them as in the AC4 and GB4 cases.
I don´t know of any, but I´m looking forward to your examples.

TF


Found an urban example of body dumping in rows.


attachment.php




Interactive map found here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-serialkillersmap-0804-i,0,515310.htmlstory
 

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Here is a proff report that probably can learn us somthing:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...YdoelC&sig=AHIEtbRZge4vEbSC5XvG87t5tVcErRi5qQ

Behavioral Science and the Law
Behav. Sci. Law 19: 595-610 (2001)
DOI: 10.1002/bsl.431

RESEARCH REPORT
Spatial Patterns of Serial Murder:
An Analysis of Disposal Site Location Choice

Samantha Lundrigan, Ph.D., and David Canter, Ph.D

I love it, it shows, there is still hope when psychologists use math. Lets go in the facts, won't we?

1.) This study uses for the distance beelines, or was they word it "as the crow flies". Problem is, the most serial killers can't use beelines. They have to use roads. For example, Corll had to his boat shed beeline about 9 miles. But the real driving distance was about 14 1/2 miles. Means, for Corll at least, the basic value of distance used in the study has a failure of 50% from the start. And we can be sure, the differences between beelines and real driving distances are also existent for all other serial killers. So, any study based on value pairs with about 50% failure would normally be rubbish in mathematical sense, unless the authors of the study could prove mathematically correct, that their failure is in relation to the base value almost constant. In this case, the study would be mathematical rubbish, but the tendency it shows would be still usable because only the relations changed. And that is not an opinion, but mathematical fact.

2.) The study could, for obvious reasons, only use serial killers who were caught and had at the time of body drops an exactly known address. This brings two major mathematical problems with it:

a.) The base set of the statistics is very limited, in this case to 126. For comparison, Hickey used 399 in his database in 1994. The variance of failure increases to the second of the reciprocally proportional of the relation in size between two base sets. Means, 1/2 the size - four times the failure variance, 1/3 the size - 9 times the variance in failure. Failure means, the impact of extreme and incorrect data in the base set. So by mathematical rules, we have 9 times the impact of extremes and mistakes in the data collection than we had in Hickey (which wasn't too stable either).

b.) The study also has to rely on caught serial killers for obvious reasons. That means, it implicitly excludes those who were smarter or luckier than the average and didn't get caught. The Zodiac for example couldn't be in the study in the first place, because nobody knows where he lived, he got never caught. He left his victims where he killed them and we know, he didn't live where he killed, because the next places people could leave were a little away. Thus, the study implicitly excludes those, who did things different and probably therefore, weren't caught in the first place. So the base set is necessarily incomplete and all absolute results are considered wrong in the sense of mathematics. However, since Statistics is often forgiving and most serial killers are anyway not caught by investigative measures but rather by parking in forn of hydrants (Berkowitz) or speeding (Bundy) or similar stupid things (Rifkin transported a body in a truck with expired plates), there is still a good chance, that in the set of caught serial killers is a sufficient number of the bright ones caught by accident. That would technically compensate for the first failure, the implicit exclusion. But since we don't know the degree of compensation, this only brings the study (always in the sense of mathematics) from utterly wrong to highly doubtful.

3.) As all studies of this kind, the base set is defined solely by a definition of serial killers by number of victims and the existence of a cool down phase. There is no detailed look on organizational degree of the offenders nor on typology in general. So a low IQ offender (like Toole), a disorganized psychopath (like Berdella or Sowell or Franklin), a mission-driven delusional SK (like Herb Mullin) and so on are all equal parts of the same base set.
This is entirely okay for a study determining a rough tendency or is on the search for the statistical methods for the subject, but not sufficient to conclude from it with certainty in the first place. Not even, if the study wouldn't have the first two problems.

4.) The authors described extensive cleansing of the sample for the sake of the statistics. So they cut out extreme long distance cases because they would raise the average too much. However, later on, they describe the use of the median instead the average. Using the median in such a case is surely the better criteria, but to make it work, they would have needed to add the earlier excluded long distance cases back into the study. The way, they did it, they cut out cases and used then the mathematical function which would have dempened bot not eliminated the impact of those cases. In other words, technically, they cut out those cases two times.

5.) This study, since the base set is caught SKs with defined addresses, doesn't deal with the subject of the highly mobile ones in the first place. A long-haul trucker SK wouldn't be included and if, would cause an over-proportional impact. Imageine the guy having a home in Ohio but because he is on the road all the time with his truck, kills in Texas, New York and wherever his tours lead him. The distances would be enormous. A mathematical statement is proven wrong if there can be even only one case brought up for which the statement is incorrect. Now, statistics and it's results are not entirely statements in the sense of mathematics, neither should they be treated as those. However, we should keep in mind, that there are SK types who deviate from the tendencies in this study for reasons of their type. Which proves, this study isn't really covering all serial killers but only certain types.

Now, after pointing out the five biggest mathematical glitches in this study, of which each would be enough to rip it to pieces if we were mathematicians, lets do a little comparison to real life experience.

1.) The home as base of operation can only be valid for offenders, who have a home in the first place. Any kind of drifter would show an entirely different picture. Since there is under the serial killers a significant number of homeless, even those cases rarely catch media attention, we would have to determine this part of the typology BEFORE we can even use of any conclusion from this study.

2.) The home as base of operation can only be valid for offenders if the offender spends a significant time at home in the first place. I mentioned the truckers above, so need to elaborate a second time.

3.) The home as base for a distance calculation is only valid for the time, the offender has that home. If he moves, the game starts again. He has to become familiar with the area, he has to scout the hunting grounds, he has to find new dump sites. Therefore, the distances change after an SK moved. This part is not included in the story, the comparisons were all drawn as if moving wouldn't mean any change of the outside circumstances, which we all know (hopefully), is wrong.

4.) A number of SKs have defined dump sites. The GB4 were basically all near to each other. So there is near to no deviation in distance to his home, wherever he lives. And there is also no variation in traveling angle, which can anyway only apply if the killer would be able to travel beelines, so that part of the study is entirely useless at all.
In general, for all cases with SKs who build trophy gardens, there can only be variation in the distances as far as they have several such dump sites at the same time. Bundy for example had three in Washington State, Corll had three at his boat shed, at High Island Beach and at Lake Rayburn. All those dump sites fulfilled one or more of the following criteria, of which is none implemented in the study:

- accessibility
The killer needs a possibility to reach that place

- security
The killer needs at least some safety not to be caught during the drop

- comfort
The killer has to be comfortable in that zone. Bundy used places, he knew from hiking, Hanson places, he knew from hunting. Means places connected to other activities in the SKs life.

- emotional bond to the place
A lot of SKs who build their own little burial grounds, use areas they feel as calming and nice. In my opinion, that is the reason, why so many of them go to sea shores, lake shores or forests.

- possibility of revisiting
A number of SKs revisit the dump sites.

5.) Experience tells me, SKs use several ways of body disposal. Some dismember the victims and put them to the trash, others keep them in their houses and again others transport them to dump sites, which may or may not established trophy gardens. However, it is highly unlikely, an SK takes a body and transports it just a mile away into an area, that tells everybody in the first place, there is only one human settlement near. And even, if in that study, the median distances, they calculated are much too short because they used beelines instead of real traveling distance, they come to much bigger distances than Oak Beach to Gilgo. Which now poses the supporters of a "killer from OB" theory for a problem because either they have to dismiss that study or their theory.

What we obviously can learn from all of those studies is, never trust any study before you did the math for yourself. Still, I think, this one has something. The idea is right, only the mathematics they use spoils it.
 
Canter is one of several leading figures in the concept of crime mapping, specifically, in the area of jeopardy surfaces. IIrc, Rossmo coined the term, "Jeopardy Surface," which basically attempts to mathematically identify "hotspots" based upon commonly held views wrt human behavior. The resulting hotspots would then be used by LE to rule in/out potential suspects. This emerging tech is, however, still in its infancy. ( link ) Even so, it does show some promise. So much so, that the National Institute of Justice has a dedicated section in this regard. ( link )

Now, that explains, why so many attempts of geograpihcal profiling end up with almost exact 50% distance failures. I found those when I went over the mathematical glitches in the study.
 
wow wow wow
GREAT work nutzger


:great::great::great::great::great::great:

:rollercoaster::rollercoaster::rollercoaster::rollercoaster:

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

:yourock:

Nice work, but then, the conclusion has a little glitch:

If you go along a highway to drop bodies, the shape of the highway (a line), shapes the form of the dump site. Compare that to other SKs dropping along roads. Technically, the GB4 form also a line.
On the other hand, if you go in the fields, there is no natural line, and boom, you have clusters because the natural orientation isn't there in a field or in remote areas. However, that isn't an entirely different disposal mode. Different disposal mode would be, if he suddenly starts to dig shallow graves, stage them, wrap them (or not anymore). Just to drop them in free fields instead of along a road doesn't establish significant change because it doesn't give a hint to what a certain SK really needs to fuel his fantasy.
 
Found an urban example of body dumping in rows.


attachment.php




Interactive map found here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-serialkillersmap-0804-i,0,515310.htmlstory

Corll placed them side by side on High Island Beach.
Bundy's Mt. Taylor started out as a line along a hiking path (till he much later took a skull from there to bring it to another dump site).
Mogale in South Africa is said to built his first dump site as a line along a road. Didn't verify yet though.
The Wests buried theirs in a line following their fence.
The eleven found on Herb Baumeister's property appear to have formed a line along the way through that area
...
How many do you need?
 
What we obviously can learn from all of those studies is, never trust any study before you did the math for yourself. Still, I think, this one has something. The idea is right, only the mathematics they use spoils it.

I think people tend to make things more complicated than they are. If you were a serial killer and needed to dump a body, what would you do? People are much more likely to dump in places they know, because they can think about that place and actually visualize it (ie. the place where I used to hang out and drink beer with my friends in the woods where my parents wouldn't find me, the place where I used to go target shooting at camp etc). You can't visualize a place you never been and who wants to be driving around with a dead body all day while looking for a "good" spot. If you want a long term hiding spot, you want a place where you know people don't frequent, because there's less chance of getting caught.

If you're impulsive and kill without forethought, then you might just look around near to where you're at and risk a greater chance of someone finding the body prior to full decomp. But I think for the purpose of the Manorville and LISK, I do think it was a place known to them and I do think it was nearby to either where they live or where they lived growing up. They KNEW those hiding spots in some capacity in their lives. MOO but idt we need a study to tell us this.
 
I think people tend to make things more complicated than they are. If you were a serial killer and needed to dump a body, what would you do? People are much more likely to dump in places they know, because they can think about that place and actually visualize it (ie. the place where I used to hang out and drink beer with my friends in the woods where my parents wouldn't find me, the place where I used to go target shooting at camp etc). You can't visualize a place you never been and who wants to be driving around with a dead body all day while looking for a "good" spot. If you want a long term hiding spot, you want a place where you know people don't frequent, because there's less chance of getting caught.

If you're impulsive and kill without forethought, then you might just look around near to where you're at and risk a greater chance of someone finding the body prior to full decomp. But I think for the purpose of the Manorville and LISK, I do think it was a place known to them and I do think it was nearby to either where they live or where they lived growing up. They KNEW those hiding spots in some capacity in their lives. MOO but idt we need a study to tell us this.

In the case of the LISK I would like to add "or worked for some time" to the list of possibilities.
 

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