Manorville Bodies: A Second Killer? Latest Remains found 02/17/2012

[CriminalMinds]

The call to MB's sister. I don't remember "the look in [her] sister's eyes," specifically, but I believe it is something along those ones.

yeah, something LIKE "you should have the seen the look in her eyes, how scared she was"

 

[woodstick]

I just read this post. That's kind of what I was thinking when I said maybe they were killed in pairs. Wasn't JTs BF/pimp locked up at the time she disappeared? Maybe she ran around with someone else when he was locked up? I suppose the police would have looked into a connection between the male and female victims.
JTOL (just thinking outloud) ; )

Justice, as i remember at least one of the men was on the south side of LIE since 80s.. i need to check dates but i believe i'm right.

 

[Justiceforever]

Justice, as i remember at least one of the men was on the south side of LIE since 80s.. i need to check dates but i believe i'm right.

the two men in manorville dont get much attention. they were both killed pretty close to the time the respective women were killed. I think the men were killed by the same person as the women. It is hard to argue that they aren't related. Notice the men are not dismembered? One of the men had some type of surgical staples due to a fracture.



Manorville 2000

FOUND: Nov 19, 2000 On paved utility road off Halsey Manor Road, Manorville. Nude white female, 5’5”, 125 lbs, 35-40 years old, brown hair, body in pieces and wrapped in plastic bags. Head, hands and right foot missing. Died weeks before. Skull, hands and right foot found in Gilgo Beach – MANORVILLE (peconic river co park) – FEMALE #1

FOUND: Nov. 23, 2000 - Between exits 68 and 69, south side of eastbound LIE. White or Hispanic male, 20-30 years old, 5’6”, 112 lbs, short black hair, has surgical staple possibly from a previous fracture, wearing M blue/white striped Gap boxers. Dead for about three weeks. NCIC#: U-660001512 – MANORVILLE MALE#1


Manorville 2003

FOUND: July 26, 2003 Jessica Taylor, nude, partial remains,
skull, hands and right forearm found in Gilgo Beach. – MANORVILLE (peconic river co park) – Jessica Taylor

FOUND: Nov. 10, 2003 south of Long Island Expressway, Manorville White male, 35-50 years old, 5’6”. Died up to four months earlier (July). – MANORVILLE MALE#2 (pine barrens preserve)

Woodstick. I was re ferring to these males. Are you referring to the Asian male found?

 

[truthspider]

Just an FYI...

Upton is all Federal Land. It is part of the Brookhaven National Lab property.

Doesn't this open the door for the FBI to step in and take over?

The legs of Jane Doe #9098 were also found on federal land, the Fire Island National Seashore owns the shoreline on Fire Island. That is exactly where the legs were found.

 

[Peter Brendt]

The legs of Jane Doe #9098 were also found on federal land, the Fire Island National Seashore owns the shoreline on Fire Island. That is exactly where the legs were found.

Still I doubt, that the bodies were found on federal land, gives the FBI enough reason to take over the whole investigation. They would need cross-state-lines or a crime that is defined as federal crime, which murder isn't.
The other question is, would the FBI like to take over in the first place. Given their record with SKs in the last two decades and especially the last one, they don't appear too keen to me.

Peter

 

[WI1987]

Still I doubt, that the bodies were found on federal land, gives the FBI enough reason to take over the whole investigation. They would need cross-state-lines or a crime that is defined as federal crime, which murder isn't.
The other question is, would the FBI like to take over in the first place. Given their record with SKs in the last two decades and especially the last one, they don't appear too keen to me.

Peter

I believe the location of where the bodies were found is still on NY state owned land.

If the bodies were found on Federal land then both the FBI and National Park Service would be involved in the bodies investigation by now. It's not that well known but the NPS has their own GS-1811 series criminal investigators in addition to the more visible Law Enforcement Rangers.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I believe the location of where the bodies were found is still on NY state owned land.

If the bodies were found on Federal land then both the FBI and National Park Service would be involved in the bodies investigation by now. It's not that well known but the NPS has their own GS-1811 series criminal investigators in addition to the more visible Law Enforcement Rangers.

Myimpression is, none of the agencies wants to touch that mess with a 10ft pole. Which makes Suffolk stuck with it?

Peter

 

[WI1987]

Myimpression is, none of the agencies wants to touch that mess with a 10ft pole. Which makes Suffolk stuck with it?

Peter

Sounds like an accurate assessment to me.

We have upwards of 10+ unsolved murders and nobody seems to want to get to the bottom of it. Low priority.

Next Tuesday it will be the 2 year anniversary of the first Gilgo bodies being found.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Sounds like an accurate assessment to me.

We have upwards of 10+ unsolved murders and nobody seems to want to get to the bottom of it. Low priority.

Next Tuesday it will be the 2 year anniversary of the first Gilgo bodies being found.

I think, it's not especially Suffolk Co. Honestly, most local PDs would be in over their heads with any SK case. It's by all means a rare occurrence. To get some experience you need a number of cases and you won't get a number of cases in one jurisdiction in a handful of years, unless it's Houston PD or maybe Orange County. Theoretically, you could get numbers also in NYC, due to the population size, but in the end, most SK cases there go unsolved or solved by luck. Didn't change much since the Son of Sam. So no real experience with SK cases in NYC (I can see Hawkshaw now jumping at me, but that's the mathematical fact).
Ergo, to get experience over a number of cases, one has to work on a federal or nationwide level. Kelly, Brown, that van Zaandt guy (I forget always the correct spelling) and so on. And of course, the famous BAU not only as some kind of holy icon in this business but much more as the once biggest nest of offender profilers worldwide. And there is the problem. A lot of good profilers have left the FBI or were never there in the first place (Pat Brown, Prof. Schlesinger for example). And those who are still there are spread over BAU-2 (crimes against adults), BAU-3 (crimes against children) and counter-Terrorism. And since counter-terrorism got in the last decade the lion's share of this limited human resource, the nest is empty. Not enough gifted profilers left for crimes, they are mostly off to hunt al-Zawahiri nowadays. Look at West Mesa ... all FBI agents involved were pretty young. Look at the Ridgway case. All were wrong, fine, so it didn't matter, but look at the press conference at those guys in plain clothes behind the chief. Fresh from the academy. And I have as of yet to see any of the remaining old battle horses the FBI has still in the LISK case.
My guess is, the FBI, knowing, they haven't a too good record with SKs in the last decade, additionally to their other problems, tries to avoid another case that can only fail for them under these conditions. It would also explain that crazy material war, they throw in every time nowadays.

Peter

 

[LINative13]

I went back and read the start of this thread. Its pretty cool; its like it is frozen in time and we are watching it unfold all over again. Maybe even pick up details that you may have missed, I for example picked up that JT was working the PA area. Amongst all the craziness that has come out in the past 2 years and life itself; I definitely forgot some small details that I thought were locked in my brain.

 

[Justiceforever]

The problem I am having with the baby is, why were the baby and the mother dumped in separate locations? And the baby placed close to a different victim as the mother?
Lets say there were no other bodies found but the mother and baby. What would that mean to investigators?
So now lets add the scenerio thet the mother and baby were not killed by the SK. Is it just chance about the locations in relation tho the SK dumping grounds?
Finally, lets add in that the mother and baby are victims of the SK. Why were the baby and the mother dumped in separate locations? And the baby placed close to a different victim as the mother?
Using the final scenerio and the most likely, from what LE says is most likely the case, is that the mother and baby are victims of the SK. Is the baby a message to show LE that the two female adult victims are connected to the same killer? Could the baby be the clue to the one SK theory for LE?

Maybe the baby being dumped in a different place than the mother was a final insult to the mother?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Maybe the baby being dumped in a different place than the mother was a final insult to the mother?

Manorville is somewhat proud of his work (I'm talking here about the senior). He staged at least two bodies, he spread out remains all over the place. He is crazy as a hatmaker, but he is proud of what he does best. The last thing he wants, is some detective come up with a theory, that mother and child were unrelated because the remains were found next to each other. So, drop them in different locations that also the last investigator can see clearly, this was his handiwork.

Peter

 

[LINative13]

Peter,
You ever consider someone is breaking the mold?
Native

 

[Peter Brendt]

Peter,
You ever consider someone is breaking the mold?
Native

Not really. Because there is no mold in the first place. If an SK stages bodies, he either tries to say something, to complete a fantasy or to make someone think, he is doing one of that. That's a limited number of possibilities. So I skip the part where everybody says, we can't know, skip the part where someone tries to tell there are other possibilities without ever finding other possibilities and go to work in form of an elimination process. After some murders without development to extremer staging and without signs of experimenting, I know, this guy isn't work on completing a fantasy ... because then he would work on it. So, one option eliminated, leaves us with" wants to say something" or tries to cheat us in a wrong picture. After some murders without exaggerating and profiling failures (because the SK trying to cheat runs a reverse profiling process), I can dismiss the idea of a cheater, because pretending to be something one isn't and therefore can't entirely understand is a hard job and causes always little glitches. Leaves me with exactly one option. No mold, just what he telly me with his behavior.

Peter

 

[LINative13]

Do you think he enjoys chianti and favre beans?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Do you think he enjoys chianti and favre beans?

Nope, he is rather a guy for Philly Cheese Steaks or something like that. However, I never came over that line in Silence of the Lambs. Cheap red wine plus beans plus liver would give most people terrible flatulence ...

Peter

 

[CriminalMinds]

Not really. Because there is no mold in the first place. If an SK stages bodies, he either tries to say something, to complete a fantasy or to make someone think, he is doing one of that. That's a limited number of possibilities. So I skip the part where everybody says, we can't know, skip the part where someone tries to tell there are other possibilities without ever finding other possibilities and go to work in form of an elimination process. After some murders without development to extremer staging and without signs of experimenting, I know, this guy isn't work on completing a fantasy ... because then he would work on it. So, one option eliminated, leaves us with" wants to say something" or tries to cheat us in a wrong picture. After some murders without exaggerating and profiling failures (because the SK trying to cheat runs a reverse profiling process), I can dismiss the idea of a cheater, because pretending to be something one isn't and therefore can't entirely understand is a hard job and causes always little glitches. Leaves me with exactly one option. No mold, just what he telly me with his behavior.

Peter

" wants to say something " --and isn't done talking (nice touch on the cheating inclusions)

 

[LINative13]

I dont think Dr Hannibal drank cheap wine. I wish I was as cultured as he was (minus the cannibal thing).

 

[Justiceforever]

I just finished reading this entire thread. If you haven't already I strongly recommend it!

 

[Peter Brendt]

I dont think Dr Hannibal drank cheap wine. I wish I was as cultured as he was (minus the cannibal thing).

Well, originally, Chianti comes from a region in Tuscany which produced till about 200 years ago three kinds of wine and none of them was able to make it on over-regional markets. Thus, they just blended it, formed a kind of brand, inspired by other more famous regions for their branding (for example Champagne, we won't forget, that Italy was partially French at the time) and did a marketing campaign. It's a blended wine with a relative low alcohol content and compared to most other French and Italian reds wines low acid. And there I talk still about the original. It's nothing special, but by it's relative mild taste, it fits nicely to pizza and due to it's low price in Europe, it's popular with panhandlers, therefore it's German nickname "Pennerdiesel", Chianti shares with the even cheaper Lambrusco. (Pennerdiesel translates word by word to Panhandler-Fuel). Back then, it was sold still in those over-sized, straw covered bottles.
However, since about the 1970s, when drinking wine became more popular in the US, there popped up a lot of "Chiantis" on the American market that haven't even seen ever the Chianti region, Tuscany or other parts of Italy. Still, those relative light faked Chiantis are nice to sandwiches, pizzas (especially the ones with the thick crust) and some fish recipes. And a lot of American wine drinkers like the low acid. Thus, the Chianti made some kind of career in the Us since the 70s. Thomas Harris, amateur cook of some reputation, chose his wines mostly for taste harmony to the meals he cooked, not especially for wine quality. I think, it was Stephen King, friend of Harris and culinary guinea pig to Harris, who wrote something about it, but I would have to look it up.

Peter