MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #2

[Nana]

think the 'space to destroy' comment and whatever she meant by saying it is moot...her actions were WRONG whatever her words were...she should not have told the cops to stand down and once that decision went very badly she should have called in the Guard much sooner. Period.

I think I heard the NG is pulling out

 

[al66pine]

I know, minutia, but in this case important too. Until I started reading about this I had no clue that "knives" were soooo complicated. I do have a swiss army knife in my backpack-my extent of knife knowledge. ... much discussed/debated and argued about in legal contexts. Here's info from a Maryland attorney: http://www.mdtriallawyer.com/dangerous-weapon-possession.html....

sbm bbm

Minutia? Not at all. Well, maybe, but aside from the 'traditional' switchblade shown in action below,
there are many types of automatic knives: spring-operated, spring-assisted, spring-loaded, or automatic-spring, auto-spring, etc. which sound alike, but are not. They operate differently.
One state's statute may make one spring knife illegal, but the other 'spring' categories may be legal.

Some statutes' inherently ambiguous phrasing causes confused or contorted interps.
Adding to uncertainty is some ppl's (looking at some of you - LEO, def attys & st attys)
lack of tech knowledge & inability to distinguish mechanism & operation of these various knives,
which determines whether a given knife falls within the legal or illegal weapon definition.
In past 5-10-15 yrs, knife design & technology have outrun legislative development.

Result: lack of uniform interp about whether a given knife is legal, under a specified statute or ordinance.
Sometimes absolute bafflement. JM2cts.

I'm still waiting for pix of FG's knife & manu. ID, name & #.
I don't know (yet) if either LE or St Atty is deliberately misleading or misstating knife info. We need pix & info.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Knife info below (no extra charge) does not answer question re whether FG's knife was legal in B'more.



Vid clip from our friend Mr Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switchblade
^
ETA/Correction: Some switch blades do not unfold or hinge like pen knife or Swiss Army knife, instead the blade slides out of the end of the handle, kind like a bullet coming out front of a gun. Some switch blades unfold or hinge like pen knives, but are still illegal under fed law.
ETA^ Thanks to Tawny for pointing out my mistake. In inserting unintended vid clip, I mis-described it.

"A switchblade (also known as an automatic knife, pushbutton knife, ejector knife, switch, Sprenger,[SUP][1][/SUP] Springer,[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP] flick knife, or flick blade) is a type of knife with a folding or sliding blade contained in the handle which is opened automatically by a spring when a button, lever, or switch on the handle or bolster is activated. Most switchblade designs incorporate a locking blade, in which the blade is locked against closure when the spring extends the blade to the fully opened position. The blade is unlocked by manually operating a mechanism that unlocks the blade and allows it to be folded and locked in the closed position."

 

[Tawny]

That blade in the clip is unfolding out of the front, it isn't sliding out of the top of the handle.

 

[DebinGA]

Re the knife discussion, the Supreme Court standard iirc is what did the officer believe to be true at the time, not what turns out to be true later on. I don't know the hierarchy of responsibility with the 2 young bike cops and the 41 yo Lt Rice, but I'd think the younger, less experienced officers would defer to Rice. If Rice's belief was that the knife was illegal at the time, should the younger officers be punished for not trying to convince him otherwise in that potentially life-threatening situation, given the location and the onlookers? I continue to believe that Mosby unfairly charged all 3 young officers.

 

[galiuro]

AFAIK, things went "very badly" Monday night. Tuesday the curfew was put in place and NG was there.

How "much sooner" could that have happened?

The governor offered her the Guard several hours earlier in the day and she refused them. Even before that, when the 'protesters' first turned into 'rioters' if the cops had started making arrests immediately instead of having some 'space' to operate in, things may not have gone so badly. NY clamped down on their sympathy protests and they did not have things burning...I think there is a time in the beginning when if the troublemakers are removed from the scene then things go more peacefully. Once they see they can get away with crap it spreads...

 

[galiuro]

That's fine if the mayor is going to allow the police to police...but if she lets them 'stand down' again...

 

[katydid23]

The governor offered her the Guard several hours earlier in the day and she refused them. Even before that, when the 'protesters' first turned into 'rioters' if the cops had started making arrests immediately instead of having some 'space' to operate in, things may not have gone so badly. NY clamped down on their sympathy protests and they did not have things burning...I think there is a time in the beginning when if the troublemakers are removed from the scene then things go more peacefully. Once they see they can get away with crap it spreads...

The Mayor said it herself----they were given the 'space to destroy...'

 

[katydid23]

Re the knife discussion, the Supreme Court standard iirc is what did the officer believe to be true at the time, not what turns out to be true later on. I don't know the hierarchy of responsibility with the 2 young bike cops and the 41 yo Lt Rice, but I'd think the younger, less experienced officers would defer to Rice. If Rice's belief was that the knife was illegal at the time, should the younger officers be punished for not trying to convince him otherwise in that potentially life-threatening situation, given the location and the onlookers? I continue to believe that Mosby unfairly charged all 3 young officers.

It is very unfair to charge them with a criminal action for misidentifying a legal vs non legal knife being held by a parolee. It seems that the identification of legal vs non legal knives is pretty ambiguous. Charging an officer with a crime for making the wrong decision seems very wrongheaded. Usually a judge would decide and drop the charges if the parolee did not have an illegal item as the cops had charged. But to now criminally charge the officers for wrongly assessing how a knife opens---from the front or from the side?

 

[bestill]

When will the public know what's in the toxicology report?

 

[SCHMAE]

So, tonight no curfew. I bet it'll be fairly quiet . Tomorrow is Monday and back to work and school for those fortunate enough to still have businesses standing they can go to work in .

 

[Goose22]

It is very obvious she is only doing this to appease the masses and for political reasons.

Is it?

 

[al66pine]

According to family he was reprimanded for a prisoner escaping from the van, so he must have been responsible for that yet he is saying that the officer's didn't and wouldn't let him seatbelt freddie in, I have a hard time believing that. If I am the driver of a police van/ paddy wagon I will be the one that secures the prisoners, if he was not allowed to do that, something needs to be changed cause that is a lame excuse for not belting prisoners in. jmo idk

Absent extraordinary circumstances, I think the van driver's best plan re belting is following LEO procedure manual, SOP, 'general orders', or what-ev term BPD uses for its P & P.

Anyone know if BPD van drivers are (for lack of better tem) regular, uniformed LEOs who have gone thru PD academy? Carry same weapons?

 

[MissSunshine]

AFAIK, things went "very badly" Monday night. Tuesday the curfew was put in place and NG was there.

How "much sooner" could that have happened?

Saturday is when people first started behaving badly, smashing up cop cars, smashing windows in businesses...

On Sunday I saw the IG posts about what was going to go down on Monday. By recommendation of LE, we closed early Monday. It started at like 2:30 Monday afternoon and the mayor didn't even address it until like 9:30 that evening. She set the curfew in place but said it wasn't going to take effect until Tuesday because she had to give people time to adhere to it or something along those lines.

There was time to stop my city from burning. I know who I blame for allowing it to happen.

 

[ShadyLady]

bbm most legal expert talking heads have pointed out that it's a house of cards, and why she likely will have major hurdles to overcome if she expects any of these charges to stick. Many different theories can and are being argued, and many believe the false arrest charges will never hold up.

whether or not all 6 go to trial and on what charges they might eventually face could potentionally reignite rioting all over again.

I ask again, why wasn't the audio/video system working in the van. Was it disconnected, or just broken. Who does the driver report to, and was there ever a request to repair the van. As a juror, I would want to know.

 

[okmom23]

Agree. I just can't imagine the ER taking the time to worry about that before getting his heart and breathing stabilized. We need a medical person on this thread. Any opiates given in the hospital would test the same as heroin.

It's common practice to place a Foley catheter and obtain a urine specimen for a urine drug screen during a code; the results of said screen can be quite useful in treating/reversing the underlying condition that caused cardiac arrest even in a trauma code. If FG was unresponsive and in cardiac arrest the use of opioids (Fentanyl) would not be necessary prior to intubation; therefore it's my opinion that if the initial UDS was obtained and came back positive for opiates one could presume that FG had ingested the opioids prior to the event that caused his injury. This initial UDS will not tell the amount FG may have ingested or pinpoint an exact time it was ingested, only a +\- result.

 

[octobermoon]

It's common practice to place a Foley catheter and obtain a urine specimen for a urine drug screen during a code; the results of said screen can be quite useful in treating/reversing the underlying condition that caused cardiac arrest even in a trauma code. If FG was unresponsive and in cardiac arrest the use of opioids (Fentanyl) would not be necessary prior to intubation; therefore it's my opinion that if the initial UDS was obtained and came back positive for opiates one could presume that FG had ingested the opioids prior to the event that caused his injury. This initial UDS will not tell the amount FG may have ingested or pinpoint an exact time it was ingested, only a +\- result.

Thank you so much!

 

[Sonya610]

So, tonight no curfew. I bet it'll be fairly quiet . Tomorrow is Monday and back to work and school for those fortunate enough to still have businesses standing they can go to work in .

No curfew for adults but minors always have a 10 PM curfew on school nights in Baltimore.

 

[ShadyLady]

The Mayor said it herself----they were given the 'space to destroy...'

Since the destruction started Saturday, I am sure she mean what she said, she knew there had already been looting. She probably did not mean to say it out loud, so then disingenuously she attacked the press. And Monday night, I swear she looked like she was out to lunch....or on 25gm of xanax....POOR POOR LEADER. JMO.

 

[ShadyLady]

Saturday is when people first started behaving badly, smashing up cop cars, smashing windows in businesses...

On Sunday I saw the IG posts about what was going to go down on Monday. By recommendation of LE, we closed early Monday. It started at like 2:30 Monday afternoon and the mayor didn't even address it until like 9:30 that evening. She set the curfew in place but said it wasn't going to take effect until Tuesday because she had to give people time to adhere to it or something along those lines.

There was time to stop my city from burning. I know who I blame for allowing it to happen.

The more destruction in her city, the more financial aid she would be able to ask for from Washington. More government contracts to hand out. The whole thing stinks. Police commissioner included.

Mayor:

"My number one priority in instituting a curfew was to ensure the public peace, safety, health and welfare of Baltimore citizens," the Democratic mayor said. "It was not an easy decision, but one I felt was necessary to help our city restore calm."

Why does she not think private property is important??? How would she feel if it was her home getting burned down, and HER livelihood destroyed??

 

[Jersey*Girl]

And therein lies the rub-- many times those that "don't" have a lot of money, believe they are "entitled" to have the same things that other people who go to school for years and WORK hard for. Rather than figuring out how to improve their own lot in life, they TAKE from those who have more, or destroy things to "protest" their poverty, or resort to quick schemes like illegal drug dealing to make money.

In THIS country, every person that wants a chance to succeed has a CHANCE to go to school, work hard, abide by the law, and work to continuously improve their life. They are ENTITLED to TRY. Every single young person in this country has a good career in the military services, if they want to get out of the hood and work to improve themselves. There ARE options-- as long as they avoid crime.

Entitlement mentality begins when cultural mores, values, and morality disappear, and selfish adolescent narcissism sets in. When there is no effective parenting of offspring that are not planned for or cherished. "I want, therefore I take"-- no matter who they hurt in the process.

Most anyone will give a hand up to people they perceive to be TRYING to improve their lives in a legal and decent, law abiding manner. Most people object to giving hand OUTS to people who continually make excuses for why they can't TRY, and then engage in criminal activity. Being a criminal is a full time job for many, that if they put that much effort into getting an education and a job, would improve their situation faster and more permanently.

Extreme inner city poverty is a metastatic cancer. The only way, IMO, that anyone can escape it who is born into that situation, is to muster up the courage to LEAVE and start over in a safer place with more opportunities. Many do just that, and we seldom hear about their successes. The ones that remain simply continue the cycle over and over, driving the neighborhoods deeper and deeper into crime.

We can't "fix" the problems of the poverty and crime-ridden inner cities, IMO. It isn't possible. It isn't about creating jobs, or spending more per pupil, or one more government hand out, or one more charitable program. No one can help someone who doesn't want to TRY to help themselves. All we can hope to do is apply external control to the crime, to hold things in check, and prevent the chaos from invading. And try to identify the ones who CAN be helped, and help them get out. IMO.

It most definitely is NOT all about money alone, the haves and the have nots. Look at all the "strike it rich" sports figures who devolve into the same patterns of crime and corruption, shortly after they become multimillionaires. It's all about personal attitude, motivation, and ambition. It's about valuing hard work to get ahead, rather than taking from others. IMO.

Bessie, I agree with you, and I will echo what Trident wrote.

I think the biggest frustration with this case, and other similar recent cases, is that the social outrage on both sides has little to nothing to do with the deceased victim, who in each case was also a violent criminal suspect. No one can speak freely, because of the shackles and the muzzle of political correctness-- not just on this board, but in other public arenas-- political correctness that only favors one point of view.

The entire situation is not at all about Freddie Gray, or excessive force by police, IMO, but an opportunistic exploitation of Freddie Gray and the police officers, as a predatory platform for social politics. JMO. Freddie Gray is a tool, exploited not for who he was, or how he died, IMO, but a tool to advance a social and political agenda.

The conversation would be most productive here, and in other public venues, if political correctness went out the window. Then we could get to the REAL issues, and what to do to improve things. JMO. IDK-- maybe a topic for the basement, member's only area?

K_Z, I'd just like to say ... YOU ARE THE SHIZZ!