MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #2

[DebinGA]

Is it above the other states?

Currently? Probably. We Georgians seem pretty happy to be here though.

 

[Myvice]

I saw his rap sheet - was from a source I wa not sure we could link - and it was indeed somewhat numbing in terms of frequency. The sad reality is, however, much of it was attemtping to obtain money to survive. I am not abdicating dealing, but his rap sheet was primarily dealing - he was not raping people, banks, kidnapping, killing people etc - he was trying to make money. He had learning disability issues from lead poisening - his career options were somewhat limited......not advocatiing dealing.......just saying.................

I definitely believe that there are some cops that are bad. There are bad employees in any field. Are these 6 part of the bad cops? I don't know yet.

But I really have to question the assumption FG was dealing to survive. If he were stealing food I might buy that. But dealing drugs seems to be more indicative of trying to maintain a lifestyle, not merely survive. To me, that mindset follows the path of the mayor when she said to let people burn and loot...it's only property. Yes, it's only property, property that someone worked hard for. I wonder if she will be feeling like it's only property if she ends up with a personal civil lawsuit from those whose lives have been destroyed through such senseless destruction. My2cents

 

[DebinGA]

The three 20-somethings - Nero, Miller, and Porter - were always in the presence of a senior officer, either Lt. Rice, Sgt. White, or 45 yo Officer Goodman. I don't understand why the three younger officers are being charged with not summoning medical aid for FG, when it was the responsibility of their superior officers to act or not act on FG's request, since they were present. IOW, outside of Hollywood a junior officer wouldn't take independent action when a superior officer is present on scene imo.

 

[al66pine]

IIRC FG asked for his asthma inhaler at the initial arrest site, but didn't exhibit an obvious, immediate need for EMTs....

sbm bbm

Not directed at you, DebinGA, but anyone?

Did FG actually have inhaler w him - in a pocket or bag - at time of foot chase? And when stopped?
Exactly when did he ask for it - before he was cuffed? After?
Initially were his hands cuffed behind him? On in front?
In vid of him w LEOs still close to bikes, I do not recall how cuffed.
By the time he was placed in van, IIRC, his hands were cuffed behind him.

Anyone? thanks in adv.

 

[kaen]

Be it as it may, how does failure to get an immediate medical assistance translate into murder charges?

They are charged with second-degree depraved heart murder and involuntary manslaughter. You can read about second-degree depraved heart murder at http://time.com/3843388/freddie-gray-depraved-heart-murder/ .


"Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as DUI). The usual distinction from voluntary manslaughter is that involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called "criminally negligent homicide") is a crime in which the victim's death is unintended."

- See more at: http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimina...nslaughter-overview.html#sthash.ZKdpIlBe.dpuf

Unfortunately, I can see how the actions in total may have gotten these officers here. In the end, a jury will decide though. I think the charges of all involved will allow the jury/bench to determine the right convictions based on the actions of each officer.

I think there is likely something that we have not yet heard or read about in the files.

 

[leah]

The three 20-somethings - Nero, Miller, and Porter - were always in the presence of a senior officer, either Lt. Rice, Sgt. White, or 45 yo Officer Goodman. I don't understand why the three younger officers are being charged with not summoning medical aid for FG, when it was the responsibility of their superior officers to act or not act on FG's request, since they were present. IOW, outside of Hollywood a junior officer wouldn't take independent action when a superior officer is present on scene imo.

So if it is the responsibility of the superior officers to get help or not, and the others there, that are below the officers, can see that the man needed medical care, they aren't suppose to comment, suggesting the man needed help? So if one of the officers went and called for help, the officer would be in trouble, because the superior didn't feel the need for help? Is that how it works?

 

[Sonya610]

Currently? Probably. We Georgians seem pretty happy to be here though.

Very true, as a CA transplant I absolutely love this state.

Plus despite what some may believe about this great state, blacks are more likely to relocate to Georgia than any other state (so apparently they think it is a pretty great place to live too).

 

[shadowraiths]

Cops Almost Saved Freddie Grey—and Themselves

On what was supposed to have been Maryland’s Fallen Heroes Day, six Baltimore police officers stood as prisoners in the same booking facility where Freddie Gray was being transported to when he pleaded for medical assistance.

The most serious charge, second degree “depraved heart” murder, had been lodged against the driver of the van, Officer Caesar Goodson. He and Officer William Porter had at one point discussed heeding Gray’s pleas and taking him to where he could get help.

Had they done so, Gray might still be alive. The six cops might still be out on patrol. The city of Baltimore might have been spared a riot. And Maryland might have gone ahead with a day to honor the first responders who gave their lives seeking to keep others safe.

But then a call had crackled over the police radio: ironically enough, a call for assistance, but one to assist fellow officers.

“While discussing the transportation of Mr. Gray for medical attention, a request for additional units was made for an arrest,” Baltimore State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby said as she read a statement of probable cause on Friday morning.​

Daily Beast

 

[SCHMAE]

Is there a curfew again tonight? tia

 

[bettybaby00]

Is there a curfew again tonight? tia

I heard last night that the plan was to keep curfew through at least the weekend.

 

[SCHMAE]

Sorry if it's been posted. Man who cut fire hose arrested on Friday.

http://www.foxbaltimore.com/news/fe...tabbing-Fire-Hoses-Charged.shtml#.VUUUHvlVhBc

 

[abstr]

As a Marylander, I am sickened. The second the man asked for medical assistance he should have gotten it.....That is ALL. I am a huge supporter of the police and firefighters but they should have called a medic

 

[Boytwnmom]

So, it seems as though the knife at issue was technically an "assisted opening" rather than a "switchblade"

How to Tell the Difference

A good indicator of whether a knife is considered a switchblade or an assisted opening knife is what the resting position of the blade is. If the blade's natural inclination is to open without the presence of a hindrance, it's a switchblade. If there is nothing blocking the blade and it stays closed, the knife is an assisted opener (assuming it has a mechanism to help open the knife).

Another way to look at it: If you are able to open the blade without exerting any effort on the actual blade, it's a switchblade. Conversely, engaging an assisted opening knife requires you to put some pressure on the actual blade, whether on the thumb stud or a rear lever connected to the blade, before the opening mechanism takes effect.

http://www.*****************/knife-information-240.html

In many states and municipalities ONLY switchblades are illegal. However, Baltimore city has an ordinance which is more broad:

POLICE ORDINANCES ART.19, §59-22
§ 59-22. Switch-blade knives.
(a) Possession or sale, etc., prohibited.
It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, carry, or possess any knife with an automatic spring or other device for opening and/or closing the blade, commonly known as a switch-blade knife.
(b) Penalties.
Any person violating the provisions of this section, shall, upon conviction thereof, be fined not more than $500 or be imprisoned for not more than 1 year, or both, in the discretion of the court.
(City Code, 1950, art. 24, §155; 1966, art. 19, §160; 1976/83, art. 19, §185.) (Ord. 44-057.)

http://archive.baltimorecity.gov/portals/0/charter%20and%20Codes/code/Art%2019%20-%20PoliceOrds.pdf

NY has a similar broader law and the Village Voice had been covering that issue and wrote about this case with the update that the prosecutor has now said the knife was legal. It's clear NY conducts arrests based on the broader law

The arrest charge recalls an issue we've been covering in New York City for months — the NYPD's enforcement of a half-century old law against so-called "gravity knives." The law was the subject of a lengthy investigation we published last year which found as many as 60,000 questionable arrests in ten years, making the statute one of the top-ten most-prosecuted crimes in New York City.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2015/04/freddie_grays_death_in_police.php

And it seems as though Baltimore does too. I found comments on the "Baltimorecrimeblogspot" from 2011 arguing about whether the city was right because the Baltimore Police and Prosecutor said assisted open knives were illegal under the city ordinance-the actual news article linked has been removed from the news site but seemed to refer to some specific incident involving a store.

And found an article about Ocean City enacting a law similar to Baltimores to make assisted open knives illegal.

The new ordinance on assisted-opening knives adds it to the city’s list of various weapons that are already banned, including nunchakus, throwing stars, metal knuckles and fighting axes.

Ross C. Buzzuro, Ocean City’s police chief, said his department recommended prohibiting the assisted-opening knives because they’re “very easy to open and become a weapon.”

“In the interest of public safety, there’s not a real good reason to have a knife of that type in this environment,” said Buzzuro, who served 27 years in the Baltimore City Police Department before taking over Ocean City’s police force.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ocean-city-bans-certain-kind-of-knives-and-laser-pointers-in-time-for-holiday-weekend/2014/05/23/59a9c2e4-e26a-11e3-810f-764fe508b82d_story.html

In that same article, a criminal defense attorney even argued that assisted open knives could be considered illegal the existing state law switchblade prohibition:

David Martella, a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor in Montgomery County, said based on his reading and analysis of state laws, prosecutors could convict someone of carrying a concealed assisted-opening knife under the existing switchblade statute.

So, if it turns out, as it seems, that these "assisted open" knives have been long treated as illegal in Baltimore, and other places, under the city ordnance, why would a prosecutor now say those knives are legal? Why would she take a position that not even a defense attorney would take? That an assisted open knife is legal. Won't this bring into questions ALL the arrests, charges, cases in Baltimore based on assisted open knives?

More and more, this all seems to be much more a political, than a legal, decision.

 

[bettybaby00]

I

So, it seems as though the knife at issue was technically an "assisted opening" rather than a "switchblade"

http://www.*****************/knife-information-240.html

In many states and municipalities ONLY switchblades are illegal. However, Baltimore city has an ordinance which is more broad:

http://archive.baltimorecity.gov/portals/0/charter%20and%20Codes/code/Art%2019%20-%20PoliceOrds.pdf

NY has a similar broader law and the Village Voice had been covering that issue and wrote about this case with the update that the prosecutor has now said the knife was legal. It's clear NY conducts arrests based on the broader law

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2015/04/freddie_grays_death_in_police.php

And it seems as though Baltimore does too. I found comments on the "Baltimorecrimeblogspot" from 2011 arguing about whether the city was right because the Baltimore Police and Prosecutor said assisted open knives were illegal under the city ordinance-the actual news article linked has been removed from the news site but seemed to refer to some specific incident involving a store.

And found an article about Ocean City enacting a law similar to Baltimores to make assisted open knives illegal.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ocean-city-bans-certain-kind-of-knives-and-laser-pointers-in-time-for-holiday-weekend/2014/05/23/59a9c2e4-e26a-11e3-810f-764fe508b82d_story.html

In that same article, a criminal defense attorney even argued that assisted open knives could be considered illegal the existing state law switchblade prohibition:



So, if it turns out, as it seems, that these "assisted open" knives have been long treated as illegal in Baltimore, and other places, under the city ordnance, why would a prosecutor now say those knives are legal? Why would she take a position that not even a defense attorney would take? That an assisted open knife is legal. Won't this bring into questions ALL the arrests, charges, cases in Baltimore based on assisted open knives?

More and more, this all seems to be much more a political, than a legal, decision.

Also, I've seen comments elsewhere that FG was on probation (I don't have a link, so I'm not stating as fact) and if he was, could further validate the arrest as "illegal weapons" are going to have greater ramifications for people on parole.

Eta: also, as previously discussed, it appears that ANY knife which can be activated "one handed" falls into the switchblade category.

 

[Woodland]

Exactly. Couple that with direct orders from the mayor to let the rioters destroy property, and stand down.

I honestly have no idea anymore why any police officers are willing to go into these dangerous zones and neighborhoods. Especially white officers. Why even do it? The crooks and gangs all want to kill them, and their supervisory chain scapegoats them and neuters them. The cynical side of me says there is no effective way to police in these kinds of neighborhoods. Maybe we should just stop trying. Save the people who want to get out and try to live a decent, law abiding life. Help those who will help themselves. Build a big fence around the rest, and make those un policed zones. Let the crooks all kill each other and burn and loot whatever's left. It's becoming harder and harder for me to see the crooks, gang bangers, and rioters as even human. They have depersonalized themselves by their own behavior, IMO. I can't even begin to muster any sympathy for them.

It's very frustrating that any police officer has to deal with these people day after day, just waiting for some crooked political tinder to ignite and ruin their lives. I can believe many would just stand by and let the criminals do whatever they want.

I think every single one of the looted businesses, vandalized property owners, everyone who was a victim of the incompetent and corrupt Mayor's decision to have police stand down, should file a hundreds of million dollars class action lawsuit against the Mayor and the city of Baltimore. I think the mayor should face criminal charges herself, IMO. I just can't believe this level of corruption is happening in my country. This is not the kind of America I served for, for so many years. This is shameful and disgraceful.

From the beginning I always thought that if the mayor ordered LE to stand down the first night of rioting (something I haven't actually seen verified) it was to prevent LE from opening fire on the crowd. Something, that imo, would have happened without a stand down order.

I think she saved more than she sacrificed. A leader always comes under fire after the fact. What's missing in the discussion about that stand down order, imo, is what should she have ordered and what would the possible consequences have been?

 

[Rocco]

From the beginning I always thought that if the mayor ordered LE to stand down the first night of rioting (something I haven't actually seen verified) it was to prevent LE from opening fire on the crowd. Something, that imo, would have happened without a stand down order.

I think she saved more than she sacrificed. A leader always comes under fire after the fact. What's missing in the discussion about that stand down order, imo, is what should she have ordered and what would the possible consequences have been?

She should have ordered the police to allow peaceful protesters to continue what they were doing however, the first person to throw a brick or break a window should have been arrested---and the 2nd one and the 3rd one............................. If they had been allowed to arrest people who started causing destruction, it could have been nipped in the bud instead of allowing it to escalate and making it clear nothing would be done about it.

Why even send officers out? They weren't allowed to stop the violence or arrest anyone. They were just there to stand and let the crowd throw things at them, spit on them, and yell profanities at them.

 

[Cherry]

I wrote to as many people that i could about what I know about LE in this area and their "game of fun" and "hard stops" with inmates in the back seat unbuckled. I still feel, in my heart and gut, and sound mind, that he died from the driver speeding up and slamming on the breaks. This is what is referred to by le as a "hard stop" but LE in my family, do it on purpose as a game so that the inmate's face faceplants onto the backseat cage. this could break a persons neck, and or spine as well as bones in the face depending on the speed. The route they drove, needs to be checked for as they were in progress, not just the "stops". IOW, LE that I know, do this for fun. I wrote to as many people as I could demanding these officers be asked about this procedure. It is a sickening fact, one that I only know of personally because I was told by a cop. In the neighboring area. Knowing in my heart, that cops do this as a joke, for fun, or out of hatred for drug addicts or other reasons, sickens me....and I do think this is what killed Freddie Gray. The game how it was described to me, was intentional, which is first degree...premeditation as soon as they put them in unbuckled. There is no getting around that either. Proving it happened in this case, won't be an issue if the cops will just tell the truth about what they really did. Ppl all over are wondering why all the stops, etc. IT's more about the speeds reached, between the stops before the driver slams on the breaks. Sickening. I'm so glad that charges were filed, and I hope this comes out...because it's common practice. I'm really sad to say it too, I'm embarrassed to know that someone i know in LE, gains pleasure from this sick form of punishment. The driver knows the person is going to be injured, seriously...and when I was told the story he laughed. He derived pleasure from doing it to people he was taking into the station. After a week of CNN headlines, "what happened inside that van" and then remembering the conversation that was relayed to us, my heart sank, my head hurt and I had to write to as many people I could in this area, so they would start asking, did they do this? Did they engage, purposely in "hard stops" with Freddie Gray? If they dont know about this unknown "game" or illegal procedure how on earth, will they depose? I'm done writing about it now, but I'm sure this is what was done to him. It's pre meditated. As soon as the decision is made to not buckle in; that cop knws they are going to have some "fun" with that inmate. Thats exactly how it was described to me, and it sickens me. I truly think this is how and why he died.

 

[ohreally]

She should have ordered the police to allow peaceful protesters to continue what they were doing however, the first person to throw a brick or break a window should have been arrested---and the 2nd one and the 3rd one............................. If they had been allowed to arrest people who started causing destruction, it could have been nipped in the bud instead of allowing it to escalate and making it clear nothing would be done about it.

Why even send officers out? They weren't allowed to stop the violence or arrest anyone. They were just there to stand and let the crowd throw things at them, spit on them, and yell profanities at them.

I agree. Also if she would of answered the numerous calls from the governor and requested NG this wouldn't of happened.
I will never understand putting police on the streets and telling them to just stand there waiting for a rock or bullet to hit them.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015...t-map-timeline-1430440637810-master495-v4.jpg ... Inside view of police van...

Very little room for an officer to get inside with an arrestee and make "tether" adjustments.

Enough room for an officer to further investigate the condition of an unresponsive man who had previously requested medical attention. JMO

 

[Sonya610]

From the beginning I always thought that if the mayor ordered LE to stand down the first night of rioting (something I haven't actually seen verified) it was to prevent LE from opening fire on the crowd. Something, that imo, would have happened without a stand down order.

So you believe the police would have opened fire and gunned down hoards of people if the mayor had NOT told them to let them loot? Wow....

Grant it...it would have been quite impressive if they had done that, but they wouldn't have.

I wonder what the mayor would have said if the looters were breaking into HER home to steal and burn the place to the ground? And what would she have said if she had family members including a baby in the building when it was set on fire? Like the poor family that owned the liquor store?

Would she have said "They only meant to destroy property so it isn't a big deal?" Would she have told them to stand down and watch her home be destroyed???