MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #2

[katydid23]

Sorry - "demoted" not "fired". Which begs the question, really, of 'why wasn't he fired'?

I was aware of why Mackel was disciplined. My point was, he was disciplined for that behaviour, which did not involve pulling a gun on a woman or kids, breaking and entering a private home to threaten people, intimidating someone using police dept fax machines, and whatever else is on the laundry list of REALLY GOOD REASONS Rice should have been fired.

And for some reason, was not.

And I strongly suspect Freddy Gray died, as a result.

And yet Mosby is not charging HIM with MURDER---she is charging the driver of the van.

 

[vanlutz]

Before my current career I worked for a law firm that represented defendants in (mostly) personal injury lawsuits. We were usually hired by insurance companies to represent their insurers. In the 11 years I worked at the firm we settled all but one lawsuit regardless of fault or liability--it was simply cheaper than going to trial. It is VERY expensive to take a case to trial.

O/T: The insurance company took a stand on principle in the case we did not settle as it was beyond ridiculous--the plaintiff (who was racing another car down a city street) received minor injuries and proceeded to sue an elderly man (who spent two months in a hospital recovering from his injuries) for "failing to get out of the way"! I think their final offer was $250 and even it was turned down.

Please tell me the old man sued the driver or drivers of the racers.

That's what is so infuriating about the media. They know what we know, insurance companies settle, yet they never report that. Instead they promote high pay outs for people who frankly in a perfect world should be the ones paying. The kid with Michael Brown filed a lawsuit against Ferguson and Officer Wilson. NUTS!

 

[Ausgirl]

And since Mackel was not fired...he obviously owes "someone" bigtime. Would not trust his judgement at all. He is compromised. He will do what they tell him to do, imo

Seems to me that entire Baltimore PD needs a thorough investigation and clean out, by an impartial outside authority, like our Royal Commissions here that have flushed out a LOT of ingrained corruption and nepotism from various police Depts around the country.

I can tell you, it has improved not only our police force, but the public's perception and trust in the police as well.

Anyway, to me this all seems like just background noise, to detract from the disturbing fact Rice, with his highly disturbing history of violence and mental ill health, had his hands on a prisoner (one he had allegedly beaten before) who died - and very feasibly COULD have caused an initial injury that was exacerbated by rough treatment during transport.

 

[time]

in this case. That charges themselves contain no allegations of such. The other passenger said there was no rough ride and the van has a GPS which would shoe if there had been a rough ride which would then have certainly made it's way into the prosecutors charging document and certainly into her "speech".

Didn't say there was, just that it's a good possibility. Was the other passenger in the van the whole way? Another possibility is injury due to a knee on the neck?? Not sure, just saw that this was debated in other forums. I don't think the guy had the injuries before being arrested.

 

[time]

There's something to remember with MANY lawsuits. They're settled for convenience sake. It's been mentioned quite a few times that over the years Baltimore settled for close to six million in lawsuits. That sounds outrageously high, but it's not. Companies will settle regardless of right or wrong, it's just easier.

Hopefully this will change once body cameras become the norm.

I found it astounding how shocked the media were when they heard about the settlements. Anyone who has insurance or dealt with lawyers knows this is common policy.

Francis Pusok was already settled, that was quick. I'm sure they did it to get things to settle down in the media and such, but also, if they went to trial, maybe he would have gotten more.

http://www.komonews.com/news/nation...rse-chase-to-get-650000-payout-300825241.html

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I will be glad when all officers in every jurisdiction in our nation wear body cams.

I have read that the ones who do wear body cameras in their jurisdiction now have seen lawsuits go way down to almost nil. No longer will it just be based on the words of someone. Nor will it be based on eye witnesses that may have a bias to lie all along like what happened in the MB case.

I remember seeing an officer from Arizona iirc who was wearing one when he was shot and killed. It showed the murderer and what transpired between the officer and suspect showing he killed the officer in cold blood.

It will be a very good tool and will start becoming part of trials too. It will not only protect the officers from false allegations but will protect the person stopped or apprehended too. And if the officer or suspect is shot it will also show that. Body cameras are really a very good idea, imo.

IMO

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Seems to me that entire Baltimore PD needs a thorough investigation and clean out, by an impartial outside authority, like our Royal Commissions here that have flushed out a LOT of ingrained corruption and nepotism from various police Depts around the country.

I can tell you, it has improved not only our police force, but the public's perception and trust in the police as well.

Anyway, to me this all seems like just background noise, to detract from the disturbing fact Rice, with his highly disturbing history of violence and mental ill health, had his hands on a prisoner (one he had allegedly beaten before) who died - and very feasibly COULD have caused an initial injury that was exacerbated by rough treatment during transport.

If they are going to clean house, they should start at the top....way up at the top of the political food chain.
As for the officers, clean them out? Let's see how many new-hire candidates will apply! Lol!

 

[LonghornSpeakEasy]

Please tell me the old man sued the driver or drivers of the racers.

Still O/T: It's been about 20 years but I think the racing drivers were both uninsured (the driver and passenger in the other racing car were killed). The catalyst for the accident, other than the racing, was a drunk driver who pulled out from a stop sign in front the drag race. I know--enough stupidity to last a lifetime! I think the family of the deceased individuals got whatever insurance he had.

Wasn't fair--got tired of that and people's greed so changed careers. Now have a different set of issues that get under my skin!😄

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Francis Pusok was already settled, that was quick. I'm sure they did it to get things to settle down in the media and such, but also, if they went to trial, maybe he would have gotten more.

http://www.komonews.com/news/nation...rse-chase-to-get-650000-payout-300825241.html

I think if Pusok's lawyer thought he would get more at trial he wouldn't have settled for what he got.

 

[Ausgirl]

And yet Mosby is not charging HIM with MURDER---she is charging the driver of the van.

Go figure.

Didn't say there was, just that it's a good possibility. Was the other passenger in the van the whole way? Another possibility is injury due to a knee on the neck?? Not sure, just saw that this was debated in other forums. I don't think the guy had the injuries before being arrested.

The other passenger was in the van for the last 5 mins of a 45 min or so drive.

Gray looked pretty unstable to me, when they were dragging him to the van, his head's on a weird angle too. Witness said he heard Gray complaining about officer knee on him, and being hurt. Gray complained of lack of breath, a symptom of spinal injury (as well as 'asthma', and we only have the accused cops' word for it he called for an inhaler). Pretty suss, imo.

in this case. The charges themselves contain no allegations of such. The other passenger said there was no rough ride and the van has a GPS which would shoe if there had been a rough ride which would then have certainly made it's way into the prosecutors charging document and certainly into her "speech".

How would GPS support "no rough ride". A camera in the van, maybe..

In any case, if there was indeed no rough ride, it just supports my notion that Gray's injuries began at point of arrest and were exacerbated by him dragged in and out of the van during their multiple stops.

Speaking of the other prisoner in the van.. initial reports had him saying he heard Gray making sounds, that was all. Then the Dept "leaked" an alleged statement that this prisoner said Gray tried to harm himself (despite having no way of seeing Gray).

The prisoner himself strongly denies this, and he'[s then repeated basically the same story reported in the first place -- that he heard "a few bangs" from Gray's side of the van, during that last 5 mins of the ride he was witness to.

Which could have been Gray desperately trying to get help.

 

[shadowraiths]

Companies will settle regardless of right or wrong, it's just easier.

It's not about being "easier" it's about the money and the chance the jury may find for the opposing party. That is, in reality neither plaintiff or defendant attys really want to go to trial. This is why most class actions try to settle out of court. After all, if it goes to trial, the jury could find for the plaintiff, and name a figure that his far higher than the settlement. Likewise, the jury could find for the defendant, and the plaintiff gets nothing. Again, it's more fiduciary concerns than about being "easier."

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Seems to me that entire Baltimore PD needs a thorough investigation and clean out, by an impartial outside authority, like our Royal Commissions here that have flushed out a LOT of ingrained corruption and nepotism from various police Depts around the country.

I can tell you, it has improved not only our police force, but the public's perception and trust in the police as well.

Anyway, to me this all seems like just background noise, to detract from the disturbing fact Rice, with his highly disturbing history of violence and mental ill health, had his hands on a prisoner (one he had allegedly beaten before) who died - and very feasibly COULD have caused an initial injury that was exacerbated by rough treatment during transport.

The corruption in this country starts at the top many times with elected officials who are in government offices whether it is federal, state or local level.

They need to clean all those out before they get to the cops. 99% of the cops here do a great service for their communities. We seem to see more corruption cases by higher officials in government.

Many cases where LE has to shoot a suspect it is ruled justifiable.

Arrest-Related Deaths, 2003-2009 - Statistical Tables

November 17, 2011 NCJ 235385
Provides data on the circumstances of deaths that occur during, or shortly after, state or local law enforcement officers engage in an arrest or restraint process. Data from the Arrest-Related Deaths (ARD) component of the Deaths in Custody Reporting Program (DCRP) represent a national accounting of persons who have died during the process of arrest from 2003 through 2009. The ARD program includes homicides by law enforcement personnel as well as deaths attributed to suicide, intoxication, accidental injury, and natural causes. Data collected include information about the date of death, manner and cause of death, the decedent's demographic characteristics, the decedent's behavior during the events leading up to the death, and the tactics and weapons used by law enforcement personnel.


Highlights:

A total of 4,813 deaths were reported to the Arrest-Related Deaths program from January 2003 through December 2009.
Of reported arrest-related deaths, 61% (2,931) were classified as homicides by law enforcement personnel, 11% (541) were suicides, 11% (525) were due to intoxication, 6% (272) were accidental injuries, and 5% (244) were attributed to natural causes.
State and local law enforcement agencies employing 100 or more full-time sworn personnel accounted for 75% of the 4,813 arrest-related deaths reported during 2003-2009.

Among reported arrest-related deaths, 42% of persons were white, 32% were black, and 20% were Hispanic.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2228

 

[time]

I think if Pusok's lawyer thought he would get more at trial he wouldn't have settled for what he got.

10 officers beating one guy over and over that wasn't resisting and it was caught on a video... I think he just wanted the money fast and wanted it over. Possibly he was also afraid for his life because a Deputy purportedly said "This isn't over" when the beating ended. He could have gotten in the millions.

 

[Ausgirl]

The corruption in this country starts at the top many times with elected officials who are in government offices whether it is federal, state or local level.

They need to clean all those out before they get to the cops. 99% of the cops here do a great service for their communities. We seem to see more corruption cases by higher officials in government.

Many cases where LE has to shoot a suspect it is ruled justifiable.

rsmb for brevity

I agree that it needs to start at the top and work down.

However, from everything I've read and heard first hand about how corruption works in police depts (and it's not ALL police depts who have this issue!) -- the "few bad apples" who are committing crimes, theft or abuse of prisoners, etc, tend to get away with it because a/ they are ranking officers themselves with people willing to lie for them, or have been around long enough to have "connections" higher up the chain willing to support or ignore their behaviour and b/ their fellow officers turn a blind eye to protect themselves from abuse (see video below) OR where the corruption is rife, because they benefit from it in some way.

http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/baltimore-whistleblower-cop-speaks-out-439538243828

I am not a police hater, I am a police supporter. But corruption and cronyism is not police work, can tar a whole dept, and it's plainly been and still is an issue in Baltimore.

 

[MissSunshine]

Go figure.



The other passenger was in the van for the last 5 mins of a 45 min or so drive.

Gray looked pretty unstable to me, when they were dragging him to the van, his head's on a weird angle too. Witness said he heard Gray complaining about officer knee on him, and being hurt. Gray complained of lack of breath, a symptom of spinal injury (as well as 'asthma', and we only have the accused cops' word for it he called for an inhaler). Pretty suss, imo.



How would GPS support "no rough ride". A camera in the van, maybe..

In any case, if there was indeed no rough ride, it just supports my notion that Gray's injuries began at point of arrest and were exacerbated by him dragged in and out of the van during their multiple stops.

Speaking of the other prisoner in the van.. initial reports had him saying he heard Gray making sounds, that was all. Then the Dept "leaked" an alleged statement that this prisoner said Gray tried to harm himself (despite having no way of seeing Gray).

The prisoner himself strongly denies this, and he'[s then repeated basically the same story reported in the first place -- that he heard "a few bangs" from Gray's side of the van, during that last 5 mins of the ride he was witness to.

Which could have been Gray desperately trying to get help.

What happened to Mr. Gray happened in the back of the police van, SA even said so. My understanding of the GPS is that it can tell how fast the vehicle was going and if they purposely took a route that was bumpier than other.

The other prisoner, I really don't know what to believe with that one. The story tends to change some depending on the interview. One thing I do know is in that neighborhood, snitchin is a big no-no. There was even a video made about it called Stop Snitchin--very eye-opening on how things go in Baltimore. I do hope that Donta Allen is being kept safe. I really don't know if he would be a credible witness for the state or the defense. I wonder if his original interview with the police was a taped one or just a written one.

 

[shadowraiths]

Nor will it be based on eye witnesses that may have a bias to lie all along like what happened in the MB case.

While the eye witnesses may have lied, they could just as easily truly believed what they thought they saw. Just like the recent case where the news caster and that one woman thought a man was shot, when he was not. The Ferguson investigation, imnsho, was done correctly bc they relied upon forensics, in conjunction with witnesses, whose testimony was supported by those forensics. And that, afaics, is they way things should be done.

 

[Ausgirl]

What happened to Mr. Gray happened in the back of the police van, SA even said so.

It does appear that he stopped breathing and that his larynx was crushed while in the van.

What isn't being discussed by SA or any other official body is the fact that spinal injury can be severe, but not deadly unless the patient is MOVED, causing the already fractured spine to break further and cause fatal injury.

This is why people in car accidents and falls, etc, are *immobilised* until they've had scans done on their necks. Rather than you know, dragged around, hefted by their belts, dragged in and out of vehicles, and left bound and unsecured in the back of the ambulance, etc.

In my mind, and by looking at the arrest, and who made the arrest, and looking at witness statements, it's VERY possible Gray's neck was fractured in the arrest - but not fatally so. It was the van ride that killed him, ultimately.

 

[bettybaby00]

[h=1]Sources: Baltimore police investigation doesn't support some of prosecution's charges[/h]However, Batts had an inkling that Mosby was preparing for a surprise move, according to people familiar with the matter, which is why he turned over his department's findings a day ahead of the deadline he had set.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/06/polit...re-knife-marilyn-mosby-prosecution/index.html

Finally had a chance to read. I didn't notice this posted yet, and it supports the rumor that the ME "changed" manner of death to homicide.

In addition, homicide investigators who were briefed by the medical examiner's office believed the examiner's autopsy report would likely find the cause of death to fall short of homicide, according to one official familiar with the case.

Instead, Mosby said that the medical examiner concluded that Gray's death was a homicide and that Gray's fatal injury to the head occurred in a police transport van that was taking him to the police precinct.

 

[Ausgirl]

There's quite a few "leaks" and "rumours", and a couple "anonymous" statements from "friends" or relatives of the accused floating about in msm. All of which come from members of the Baltimore PD.

All of which aim to support the accused officers, while casting doubt on witnesses or undermining the case against them in some other way, oddy enough. Despite some of them being very dubious indeed.

 

[Rocco]

Finally had a chance to read. I didn't notice this posted yet, and it supports the rumor that the ME "changed" manner of death to homicide.

What's the 'fatal injury to the head' that Mosby is referring to? I've heard severed spinal cord and crush larynx but I haven't heard about a fatal injury to Gray's head.