MD - Freddie Gray dies in police custody #2

[K_Z]

And if the crushed larynx is factual this injury could have been caused by paramedic's or trauma doctors trying to intubate FG. Without seeing the autopsy report it is hard to know when his injuries occurred. Was there external bruising around the neck? If not we can surmise that the injury was caused internally during intubation. In fact according to this Wikipedia entry - the spinal fractures could have been caused by intubation also!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheal_intubation#Complications



I would be interested in hearing what the medical professionals on this site think about this possibility.

I know a thing or two about the larynx, and about intubations (as well as surgery and ICU care). Which is why I can't opine about the specific injuries, UNTIL we know something about the SPECIFIC injuries. There are many, many possibilities, including accidental, unintended, and intentional. (As well as possible injuries from medical inexperience/ incompetence.)

Which is why my hinky meter continues to clang loudly. Seems we have lots of leaks about things like whether there was a functioning GPS in the van, but absolutely not a single leak of ANY kind about what SPECIFIC injuries FG had. That's beyond hinky, IMO. It's veering into the realm of intentional, and very vigorous, suppression.

And I have to wonder why, because if the injuries support the story being furthered by the prosecutor, there is nothing to lose by suppressing the truth.

Which is why I have a strong suspicion that the injuries and injury pattern does not support the prosecutor's story, or at the very least, will have a controversial professional interpretation. Which is also why I think the family has kept the results of the second autopsy completely suppressed. JMO.

That said, I can opine about one aspect of FG-- which is that from facial pictures, he is slender, and does not appear to have any of the typical features that would predict a difficult intubation scenario. He looks like a very easy intubation in the absence of trauma or disease. If he had external laryngeal trauma, though, that could change.

 

[ShadyLady]

There's quite a few "leaks" and "rumours", and a couple "anonymous" statements from "friends" or relatives of the accused floating about in msm. All of which come from members of the Baltimore PD.

All of which aim to support the accused officers, while casting doubt on witnesses or undermining the case against them in some other way, oddy enough. Despite some of them being very dubious indeed.

But, where did you get the information that Grays voice box was crushed??

 

[oceanblueeyes]

IMO it would be remiss of us NOT to go there. This man, who should by all rights be in prison himself for his actions, and probably would be if he wasn't protected by other cops, was the man who was kneeling closest to Gray's neck while he was on the ground.

MULTIPLE times, this man has lost the plot, while armed and intoxicated, he's even been carted off to a psych hospital for it. He clearly has major anger issues and it's highly disturbing, IMO, that he's not only still on the job, but has command of other officers to boot.

And this guy just *happens* to be an arresting officer in this case. Where a young man is dragged into a paddy wagon, screaming and unable to stand without assistance, subsequently has died, and the BPD has clearly been trying to cover its own *advertiser censored* from day 1, at times failing quite miserably.

If this man was protected, all through those multiple incidents (and he was, obviously), who's to say he's not being protected now? How and why have documents been leaked, which all happen to undermine the case against these officers? So far we've heard Freddy was suicidal, that he died of a lack of seatbelt... then there was the "friend" of the officers saying Grey was "acting" because he was an informant -- what next?! Edit: Oh here we go -- now it's been "leaked" that Gray tested positive for drugs. Even if this is true it earns a resounding SO WHAT from me. Drugs didn't sever his spinal cord, did they. What are all these insiders hoping to achieve, by "leaking" all these "facts" (if they are indeed facts.. )? I think it's not hard to see all this is as blatant attempts to make Freddy the villain of the piece.

Utter. Bulldust. IMO.

Maybe if the BPD is forced to admit there's a chance Gray was injured during the arrest -- and dammit, there really is a chance of that, check out info on spinal trauma and how being moved can cause it to become fatal of a sudden --- they'd have to go into the reasons why Lt. Rice is still an employee of the department. let alone in a position of command.

It's not as if there is NOT an atmosphere in which brutality has flourished, in that city.

You are blaming the wrong department, imo.

Rice's cases were investigated so the police did their job and that is why we know what happened.

The police have no authority to bring charges against anyone including their own.

Only a Prosecutor/DA can bring charges against someone.

IMO

 

[ShadyLady]

I notice that my post with a link to the official Baltimore Police YouTube account has been removed for reasons I cannot understand.

Anyway I have this theory (just my opinion) of what might have happened based on this new information (CCTV video show FG entering a building).

We now know that FG entered an apartment building for some unknown reason before doubling back in the direction of the officers.

The man who took the video (an acquaintance of FG) said in an interview that he was in bed when "someone" came into his apartment to tell him that his friend was being tased. Could this "someone" be Freddie? We can see in other CCTV of the arrest this man walking alongside the officers holding up his phone to record the action. This is pure speculation on my part but I wonder if FG enlisted his friend to video record the arrest so that he could use it for a future lawsuit? Was the screaming and the limp legs just theatrics? The first question to be asked is does his friend live in the building that we see FG entering? (he must live very nearby based on his account of events).

It came to my mind. Especially since Gray's family had already sued once. And the heroin in his system might have dulled the pain if he intentionally hit his head in the van. I think all scenarios need to be looked at.

 

[DebinGA]

The pic showing bike officers helping FG enter the police van seems to indicate FG was able to support his weight (use his legs) at the time. There's another pic out there showing FG fully erect at the top of the steps. I think his "dragging his legs" earlier, as if unable to use them, was obviously a ploy by an experienced arrestee (with a hearing coming up in a couple of weeks) playing to an audience, especially the ones who'd see his friend's video of his arrest.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-black-family-source-says-shows-not-race.html

Has it been reported why Goodson stopped the van a block away, and the bike officers arrived and shackled FG's legs? Did Lt Rice remember they'd failed to do so after the van pulled away and called in a request for Goodson to stop? Was FG going nuts in the van and Goodson called in a request that FG be shackled? So many questions and so few answers so far.

 

[K_Z]

To add, we don't even really know what condition he was in at the scene, other than "unresponsive." That is a broad term that could be anything from semi-conscious, to a full asystolic cardiac arrest.

Did he get CPR at the scene? Was he intubated at the scene by EMS? Did EMS transport, or did the police van take him to the hospital?

I'm not certain at all from the video that he was injured in the initial situation. His appearance and behavior is open to very wide interpretation-- everything from he was passively resisting arrest by going limp and hollering, to he was seriously injured and dragging his legs. It is impossible, IMO, to look at that video and make a definite determination of whether or not he had a spinal injury at that point in time. Any one, health professional or lay person, who would do so is determined to further a specific interpretation of their choosing.

Medically, the only thing we know *for sure* is he was alive when encountered by the police, and dead a week later. There's a lot in between that which we don't know to any degree of certainty....yet. We will. But by that point, the lead stories will be firmly planted, and no amount of truth will be able change them for most people. The same as the false "hands up" stories from the Michael Brown incident.

 

[Ausgirl]

You are blaming the wrong department, imo.

Rice's cases were investigated so the police did their job and that is why we know what happened.

The police have no authority to bring charges against anyone including their own.

Only a Prosecutor/DA can bring charges against someone.

IMO

I'd probably agree - IF Rice had been arrested rather than allowed to simply walk away. But.. nope.

Seems he got a free pass from all depts concerned.

 

[Tawny]

Anytime there is an officer accused/charged/investigated for something as severe as violent intoxication and domestic violence, etc, especially to the point where they are hospitalized in a mental health facility and their firearms are confiscated, an OUTSIDE agency should be the investigating party, NOT his friends and colleagues.

JMO.

 

[Ausgirl]

To add, we don't even really know what condition he was in at the scene, other than "unresponsive." That is a broad term that could be anything from semi-conscious, to a full asystolic cardiac arrest.

Did he get CPR at the scene? Was he intubated at the scene by EMS? Did EMS transport, or did the police van take him to the hospital?

I'm not certain at all from the video that he was injured in the initial situation. His appearance and behavior is open to very wide interpretation-- everything from he was passively resisting arrest by going limp and hollering, to he was seriously injured and dragging his legs. It is impossible, IMO, to look at that video and make a definite determination of whether or not he had a spinal injury at that point in time. Any one, health professional or lay person, who would do so is determined to further a specific interpretation of their choosing.

Medically, the only thing we know *for sure* is he was alive when encountered by the police, and dead a week later. There's a lot in between that which we don't know to any degree of certainty....yet. We will. But by that point, the lead stories will be firmly planted, and no amount of truth will be able change them for most people. The same as the false "hands up" stories from the Michael Brown incident.

What happens to a person with a cervical spine fracture if they are moved about from pillar to post with no care taken at all to prevent further injury.

As far as I know, all these things are possible:

It's possible for a person with a fractured spine to suffer intermittent difficulty walking. It's possible for a person with a fractured spine to have difficulty breathing. It's possible for a person with a fractured spine -- who is handled roughly -- to suffer further injury that can sever their spinal cord. And it's possible for them to be in an immense amount of pain.

I agree, it's impossible to tell his condition just from looking at the videos. But he had trouble walking. He had trouble breathing. He was yelling "ow, ow" and otherwise indicating at the scene of the arrest that he was in pain.

Wouldn't be too, too ironic that a man "faking" (or exhibiting by coincidence) this many of the symptoms of cervical spinal injury ends up dead -- from a spinal injury?

 

[SStarr33]

To add, we don't even really know what condition he was in at the scene, other than "unresponsive." That is a broad term that could be anything from semi-conscious, to a full asystolic cardiac arrest.

Did he get CPR at the scene? Was he intubated at the scene by EMS? Did EMS transport, or did the police van take him to the hospital?

I'm not certain at all from the video that he was injured in the initial situation. His appearance and behavior is open to very wide interpretation-- everything from he was passively resisting arrest by going limp and hollering, to he was seriously injured and dragging his legs. It is impossible, IMO, to look at that video and make a definite determination of whether or not he had a spinal injury at that point in time. Any one, health professional or lay person, who would do so is determined to further a specific interpretation of their choosing.

Medically, the only thing we know *for sure* is he was alive when encountered by the police, and dead a week later. There's a lot in between that which we don't know to any degree of certainty....yet. We will. But by that point, the lead stories will be firmly planted, and no amount of truth will be able change them for most people. The same as the false "hands up" stories from the Michael Brown incident.

In an interview with Don Lemon, Donta Allen said when he first got out of the van he overheard them saying that FG was not breathing and then "an officer lady came in and said he's got vitals now". Starts at around 3:00

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/05/02/bts-ctn-donta-allen-freddie-gray-police-van.cnn

 

[krimekat]

so, if we're diving into the "private" lives of those involved, should we reflect on the "special investigators" Mosby assigned for the "impartial" investigation?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/06/politics/freddie-gray-baltimore-knife-marilyn-mosby-prosecution/

Another issue could arise from the team Mosby relied on to lead her case: one of her top investigators, Avon Mackel, is a former high-ranking Baltimore police officer who was stripped of his command post in 2009 for failing to follow through on a robbery investigation that two of his officers mishandled and did not report. A Baltimore Sun report said police in the district were accused of classifying serious crimes as lesser in order to log lower crime rates.

In October 2009, four months after his demotion, Baltimore County police sent a SWAT team to Mackel's home, responding a drunken incident in which he was seen holding a gun, according to a police report of the incident obtained by CNN.

Officers said an intoxicated Mackel refused to cooperate and was visibly upset, according to the report provided in response to a public records request. An officer then "observed the barrel of Mackel's handgun hanging over the edge of the molding at the top of the steps and saw Mackel pull the gun out of sight," the report said.

Police used a Taser on Mackel while he was on the phone with his father "crying and yelling," before he barricaded himself in his bedroom. The report doesn't say how the incident ended, but police said there was no arrest. A spokesman for the Baltimore County Police Department said "the [SWAT] tactical unit did assist with this incident, which ended peacefully."

Mackel didn't respond to calls and emails seeking comment. No one answered at his home.

so, there are "crazy" people on both sides of the fence; I'm not going to discuss anything personal about those involved UNTIL we get evidence/facts about the incident . . . charges to me are not evidence. I want the autopsy! ME Report! There's a lot out there but just some missing key pieces

 

[Curious Guy]

so, if we're diving into the "private" lives of those involved, should we reflect on the "special investigators" Mosby assigned for the "impartial" investigation?

Another issue could arise from the team Mosby relied on to lead her case: one of her top investigators, Avon Mackel, is a former high-ranking Baltimore police officer who was stripped of his command post in 2009 for failing to follow through on a robbery investigation that two of his officers mishandled and did not report. A Baltimore Sun report said police in the district were accused of classifying serious crimes as lesser in order to log lower crime rates.

In October 2009, four months after his demotion, Baltimore County police sent a SWAT team to Mackel's home, responding a drunken incident in which he was seen holding a gun, according to a police report of the incident obtained by CNN.

Officers said an intoxicated Mackel refused to cooperate and was visibly upset, according to the report provided in response to a public records request. An officer then "observed the barrel of Mackel's handgun hanging over the edge of the molding at the top of the steps and saw Mackel pull the gun out of sight," the report said.

Police used a Taser on Mackel while he was on the phone with his father "crying and yelling," before he barricaded himself in his bedroom. The report doesn't say how the incident ended, but police said there was no arrest. A spokesman for the Baltimore County Police Department said "the [SWAT] tactical unit did assist with this incident, which ended peacefully."

Mackel didn't respond to calls and emails seeking comment. No one answered at his home.

so, there are "crazy" people on both sides of the fence; I'm not going to discuss anything personal about those involved UNTIL we get evidence/facts about the incident . . . charges to me are not evidence. I want the autopsy! ME Report! There's a lot out there but just some missing key pieces

Mosby's past shouldn't be off limits either if that game is going to be played. I'll leave it at that.

 

[DebinGA]

The transcript of Mosby's accusations/charges might be helpful:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...eddie-gray-death-transcript-article-1.2206744

For instance, "Officer William Porter [25 yo] arrived on the scene ... Both Officer Goodson and Porter proceeded to the back of the wagon to check on the status of Mr. Gray's condition. Mr. Gray at that time requested help and indicated that he could not breathe. Officer Porter asked Mr. Gray if he needed a medic at which time Mr. Gray indicated at least twice that he was in need of a medic. Officer Porter then physically assisted Mr. Gray from the floor of the van to the bench ... [Goodson and Porter "assessed FG's condition" and discussed what to do] ..."While discussing the transportation of Mr. Gray for medical attention, a request for additional units was made for an arrest [very near where FG was arrested] and "Officer Porter left the scene [to answer the call at North Ave..] Goodson in a grossly negligent manner chose to [respond to the same call at West North Ave.]."

When Porter arrived iirc the police van was at a location far SE from where FG was arrested - with the police station a shortish drive west, which may be why Goodson and Porter were likely discussing whether help for FG would arrive sooner if the van continued to the station rather than wait for an ambulance. Porter answered the call for additional units, leaving the 45 yo Ofc. Goodson to make the decision imo. Does this scenario justify the charges against Ofc. Porter ... Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, and misconduct in office? No way imo.

 

[DebinGA]

Anytime there is an officer accused/charged/investigated for something as severe as violent intoxication and domestic violence, etc, especially to the point where they are hospitalized in a mental health facility and their firearms are confiscated, an OUTSIDE agency should be the investigating party, NOT his friends and colleagues.

JMO.

I agree in general, but there may be a history between the two men that would make Rice's behavior not excusable, but more understandable. Rice had a child with the woman who "was then" the wife of the complainant. Maybe visitation issues were involved, which often make normally sane people crazy.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

But I am not sure the part about the crushed larnyx is a fact. JMO

Neither am I. Remember when it came out very quickly that MB had been shot in the back? Turns out that wasn't the truth at all even though it was said to be.

IMO

 

[K_Z]

What happens to a person with a cervical spine fracture if they are moved about from pillar to post with no care taken at all to prevent further injury.

As far as I know, all these things are possible:

It's possible for a person with a fractured spine to suffer intermittent difficulty walking. It's possible for a person with a fractured spine to have difficulty breathing. It's possible for a person with a fractured spine -- who is handled roughly -- to suffer further injury that can sever their spinal cord. And it's possible for them to be in an immense amount of pain.

I agree, it's impossible to tell his condition just from looking at the videos. But he had trouble walking. He had trouble breathing. He was yelling "ow, ow" and otherwise indicating at the scene of the arrest that he was in pain.

Wouldn't be too, too ironic that a man "faking" (or exhibiting by coincidence) this many of the symptoms of cervical spinal injury ends up dead -- from a spinal injury?

Of course it's possible he had an injury before being loaded into the van. It's equally possible he didn't have an injury at that point, absent more definitive information about his injuries and injury pattern.

We know this is equally possible, because just a few days ago, a gunshot was heard during a Baltimore arrest, the suspect immediately dropped to the ground and began moaning and acting seriously wounded. Shortly after that, we find out the suspect absolutely DID NOT have a gunshot wound-- despite widespread impulsive social media interpretation, and definitive hospital care. The police, in that instance NEVER fired, and yet scores upon scores of people either swore they saw him shoot the suspect in the back, or saw the suspect with gunshot wounds in his back.

The prosecutor in this instance is enveloped in youthful inexperience, but equally convinced of her own infallibility, simply because she has a law degree and won a popular election. That is a very dangerous combination for a prosecutor who is charged with seeking justice.

It's not a bad thing at all to be inexperienced or very young, given enough humility about knowing what you don't know, and relying on caution, guidance, and experience of others. There is a world of difference between being an arrogant, reckless maverick, and a thoughtful, careful, and enlightened professional-- as I teach to all my "new" anesthetists. If your life is on the line, believe me, you don't want a reckless arrogant maverick in charge, who thinks they are infallible. That goes for anesthesia and surgery, as well as seeking truth and justice in the legal system.

This prosecutor has exactly no experience in criminal prosecution, and was elected based on what everyone is elected on-- a popularity contest. I believe the way she went about charging the officers was arrogant, reckless, and probably professionally incompetent. This is why, IMO, critically important positions like prosecutors, should not be elected positions. IMO, this woman is uniquely unqualified for the position she now holds, and that is showing loud and clear. There are a bunch of ways she could have handled this situation much better and more professionally and competently. But she chose not to do that. Occasionally we see reckless and vindictive prosecutors-- just as we occasionally see reckless, arrogant, and criminal cops. Just as we occasionally see suspects faking injuries during their arrest.

 

[DebinGA]

Neither am I. Remember when it came out very quickly that MB had been shot in the back? Turns out that wasn't the truth at all even though it was said to be.

IMO

Mosby's account of events has FG requesting medical help, i.e. he was able to speak, from Ofcs. Goodson and Porter at the later stop. Could Goodson's rush to answer the second arrest call at North Ave. have caused an unintentional "rough ride" due to Goodson's hurry?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree in general, but there may be a history between the two men that would make Rice's behavior not excusable, but more understandable. Rice had a child with the woman who "was then" the wife of the complainant. Maybe visitation issues were involved, which often make normally sane people crazy.

I really don't see any evidence the police department tried to shield him. It seems it was thoroughly investigated and that is the reason we know the specifics on what occurred.

It seems more about a DA who didn't seek charges against him.

IMO

 

[DebinGA]

From Mosby's election site bio:

"In 2005, Marilyn pursued her passion for justice over money and joined the Baltimore City State Attorney's Office where she expeditiously worked her way up the ranks. After a mere five months of service as an Assistant State's Attorney, she was promoted from an entry level prosecutor to the Supervisor of the Early Resolution Court, where she managed and trained newly sworn district court prosecutors and support staff on proper courtroom decorum and docket management. In six short years, Marilyn advanced from District Court to Misdemeanor to the General Trial Division, where she prosecuted of some of the most heinous felons in the state."

I mistakenly thought Mosby had only done legal work for an insurance company before running for SA, until someone here set me straight.

 

[jjenny]

When Porter arrived iirc the police van was at a location far SE from where FG was arrested - with the police station a shortish drive west, which may be why Goodson and Porter were likely discussing whether help for FG would arrive sooner if the van continued to the station rather than wait for an ambulance. Porter answered the call for additional units, leaving the 45 yo Ofc. Goodson to make the decision imo. Does this scenario justify the charges against Ofc. Porter ... Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, and misconduct in office? No way imo.

I don't see how the charges are justified. If Porter left because there was a request made, and another officer was in charge, how is Porter responsible?