CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[Soulmagent]

Here is a blog from Susan Simpson..

Her bio reads

Susan Simpson graduated from the George Washington University Law School. As an associate with the Volkov Law Group, she focuses primarily on the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and white collar defense, as well as related civil proceedings. Her previous legal experience includes civil litigation and criminal appeals

http://viewfromll2.com/

She has written a few pieces on this case which are interesting to read.

The most damning evidence against Adnan ,is Jays word. and the cell phone logs but only because he says he is with it at the time of the 7 ish calls.
I know the state submitted 3 items with finger prints from Adnan that where in Hae's car . they where on an atlas (palm print) an insurance card from her glove box and floral paper from the back seat.
However Don testified to the fact that Adnan was driving Hae's car on dec 23.
Alot of the trial testimony covers a fair amount of questions in the case ,when compared to some of Jays timelines and the call timelines and the witnesses for that state who did see Adnan that day and remember it. Debbie,and the guidance office person. there was a document printed for Adnan at 303pm and he was in his track clothes at that time. Debbie seen him right before that.

It appears Hae was running late she was on the bus talking to the girl on the wrestling team, next she went and got her hot fries and than was watched driving out of the parking lot between 3 and 330. Alone. She was supposed to get her family member from day care @3:30.

I just dont see how Adnan , who is getting his paper printed in his track clothes. Has time for this. Maybe I am missing something and I know my timeline is not complete in this post . When the second set of transcripts are released I will make a complete timeline ,that includes everyone who has a time stamp with them so we can see where everyone is and when they got there.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Susan's blog is fantastic. It cracks me up to watch the comments ...someone posts all smug about how she's wrong and she just posts back exactly why she's right and then....silence from the original commenter lol.

 

[circe221]

Well, for starters, the entire premise itself. That this case was a miscarriage of justice that needed re-examining.
The mere fact that Koenig agreed to do a piece on the case at the request of Rabia indicates that she has an angle.

Her presentation of the cell phone data was, in my opinion, deliberately confusing to the listener. After reading further about the cell phone technology at the time, and how the "pings" would have occurred, it isn't nearly as complicated as Koenig presented it. She made it seem to the listener that the cell phone information was secondary, and even that it may have been inaccurate, which I believe not to be the case.

One element of the storyline that she glossed over that I found particularly disturbing was the "I will kill" written on the paper, and Hae's own letter to Adnan about his possessiveness. She really touched on these things, but presented them in a way that made them seem trivial, when I believe they were probably the most telling out of anything presented. Yes, both of these are circumstantial, but I think they give a more unadulterated picture as to what was going on.

Koenig's agenda seemed to be painting Jay (and possibly Don) as the true villain in the case, when I think in reality, while he helped bury the body and acted as Adnan's accessory, he wasn't the one who strangled her--- Adnan was.

Also, the hinting that Adnan's Muslim culture/religion as being a possible reason for his conviction was more smoke and mirrors.
I don't think that came into play as much as she would have the listener believe. If anything, I think it wasn't even an issue at all, except for the defense's attempt to use the people at the Mosque as an alibi.

As for her trying to contact Urick - that is a he said/she said. She may have made a half-assed effort, but I don't think she really pursued it as vigilantly as she claimed. She seemed to do a lot of random "door knocking" - just showing up at people's houses to speak with them. Why didn't she do this with Urick?

 

[circe221]

Those Nokia phones had to be "unlocked" from what I recall. You had to enter a code or press a series of buttons to make a call. Highly unlikely that Adnan just so happened to "butt dial" - unlock and then make an actual call.

For me, the totality of the evidence presented - call logs, fingerprints, testimony, Jay knowing where the car was, Hae's own words, relationship with Don - all points to one, and only one, person - Adnan.

Jay is guilty of helping Adnan dispose of the body, and potentially, cover up the crime to hide his own involvement. I think he should have been prosecuted. But I do not think he or anyone else strangled Hae Min Lee.

 

[gitana1]

Wow, great interview. He comes across as very believable to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have serious problems with Jay's story (just finished the podcast). Yes, his interview was solid and he comes off as believable. But there are holes, lies, things that don't add up.

However, a couple things that are red flags to me about Adnan? His reaction when Sarah got the interview with the girl who said she saw him in the library. That is not explainable to me by the fact that they just finished an appellate procedure and lost. I think any innocent person'sfirst reaction would be relief and excitement. THEN, it would be exasperation and grief that the information didn't come earlier, at the crucial time.

To me, his initial silence and oh well attitude seem like how someone who knows it is not correct and this can't be proven, would react.

The second red flag is what Sarah kept describing as Adnan's adaptability. His comfort in prison. As if that is a sign he couldn't be a sociopath. Actually, those are precisely the traits and reactions of sociopaths or people who know they are guilty.

 

[gitana1]

I need to reveiw court document I believe, After knowing all the stories Jay has told and hearing about the actual towers not matching up to the call log/locations. I just do not feel confident in Adnan's conviction. I do believe he had ineffective council and I also believe Ashia statement should have been presented ,AND a mistrial declared on the second trial after it was found out about the lawyer meeting Jay in the prosectors office. There is no way Jay did not see the benefit of having that lawyer. He signed the papers ,plus he had asked for the lawyer. I think that is HUGE. CG should have filed a complaint with the bar for that. Or however you report those ethic issues.

I for the life of me do not understand why people say Jay seems like he is honest. I dont see it, not in the tone of his voice or the look on his face.

Imo he absolutely did not have anywhere close to ineffective assistance of counsel. Not frickin close. His attorney was a popular and formidable defense attorney with a phenomenal reputation as an intelligent bull dog. What i heard about how she presented the case sounded solid from an attorney perspective and Adnan is satisfied with her representation. There are often reasons you will never know as to why certain things aren't presented. Like lack of credibility or someone makes an appalling witness and it will actually hurt your case to put them on the stand.

Adnan got a solid defense. Not perfect but good.

 

[gitana1]

I know that she covered a story about Adnan's attorney Christina Gutierrez at some point, and that Rabia Chaudry contacted Sarah later to see if what she had found out about CG could have any bearing on Adnan's case. CG was disbarred for financial misconduct IIRC. Rabia thought CG may have intentionally lost the trial in order to make money doing the appeal.

I don't know what, if any, other options were, but that is how she got involved with Adnan's case. Rabia is a friend of Adnan's family.

Thats total insanity. She did not "throw" the case. Even Sarah dismissed that nonsense. There are so many reasons why that is a laughable proposition of Rabia's and there too many reasons why no lawyer would ever do such a thing. The variables alone. Forget it.

I do believe that is a typical conspiracy theory or hysterical accusation of people desperate to prove someone innocent.

She was the worst, WAS SHE NOT?

Lol

No. Not even close. She was an incredible attorney. The issues that led to her giving up her license had to do with financial mismanagement, probably due to her illness. Not even Adnan is accusing her of being ineffective which is grounds for appeal. So he gave that possibility up.

 

[circe221]

I have serious problems with Jay's story (just finished the podcast). Yes, his interview was solid and he comes off as believable. But there are holes, lies, things that don't add up.

However, a couple things that are red flags to me about Adnan? His reaction when Sarah got the interview with the girl who said she saw him in the library. That is not explainable to me by the fact that they just finished an appellate procedure and lost. I think any innocent person'sfirst reaction would be relief and excitement. THEN, it would be exasperation and grief that the information didn't come earlier, at the crucial time.

To me, his initial silence and oh well attitude seem like how someone who knows it is not correct and this can't be proven, would react.

The second red flag is what Sarah kept describing as Adnan's adaptability. His comfort in prison. As if that is a sign he couldn't be a sociopath. Actually, those are precisely the traits and reactions of sociopaths or people who know they are guilty.

I actually thought the whole Asia story was strange. She, like Koenig, seemed to have a crush on Adnan. I felt that way listening to the podcast first, then reading her letters to him while he was in prison. She sounded like one of those women who writes to an inmate in prison declaring their love. Maybe he knew her story was hokey and was nervous that it would reveal other things? I don't know, but it was definitely odd.

My take on Adnan's ease in fitting into prison life was that he didn't think he would be there for long. Maybe someone outside was telling him they would appeal, or continue to fight for him. I am sure most prisoners maintain their innocence, but I can see Adnan moreso because I think he believed it to an extent.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I think Adnan fit in well in prison because he knows he is guilty, and I think protesting his innocence is just what he does with the 'straight' world, I doubt he bother doing the same with his fellow inmates.

There must be a few who find this whole situation with 'Serial' rather amusing.

 

[Concerned Mama]

I actually thought the whole Asia story was strange. She, like Koenig, seemed to have a crush on Adnan. I felt that way listening to the podcast first, then reading her letters to him while he was in prison. She sounded like one of those women who writes to an inmate in prison declaring their love. Maybe he knew her story was hokey and was nervous that it would reveal other things? I don't know, but it was definitely odd.

I thought the storytelling aspect was well done, in first making you believe that here was a legitimate alibi for Adnan which had been overlooked. But the later reveal about Asia clearly remembering snow falling later that day just proved she had her days mixed up.

 

[gitana1]

I actually thought the whole Asia story was strange. She, like Koenig, seemed to have a crush on Adnan. I felt that way listening to the podcast first, then reading her letters to him while he was in prison. She sounded like one of those women who writes to an inmate in prison declaring their love. Maybe he knew her story was hokey and was nervous that it would reveal other things? I don't know, but it was definitely odd.

My take on Adnan's ease in fitting into prison life was that he didn't think he would be there for long. Maybe someone outside was telling him they would appeal, or continue to fight for him. I am sure most prisoners maintain their innocence, but I can see Adnan moreso because I think he believed it to an extent.

I don't know. Because he stated a few times during he podcast that he had a life there in prison and nothing he said indicated he felt he would be exonerated. In fact, he was almost casual about the whole thing: "Either you believe me or you don't." And something about how his parents know he is doing well.

 

[khaki]

I thought the storytelling aspect was well done, in first making you believe that here was a legitimate alibi for Adnan which had been overlooked. But the later reveal about Asia clearly remembering snow falling later that day just proved she had her days mixed up.

I know what you mean about the snow, but I think they had an ice storm later that day/evening and schools were closed, so part of me wants to give her the benefit of the doubt...(snow storm vs ice storm...either way, it was cold, wet, icky, winter weather that caused school closings)

 

[gitana1]

The court transcripts are a must read.

Debbie places Adnan in the school at 245. Which I somehow missed. page 338. In case anyone wants to check that out. Also the jury question on 339 in interesting, However this is the first trial so that doesnt matter but I see why CG might have thought it was not going well ,when actualy it looks as if it is going pretty well for Adnan at this point.

Can you remind me who Debbie is and what the signficance of the sighting is to the timeline? My memory is bad right now!

There potentially is a smoking gun here with the DNA that was never tested. If Hae has Jay's DNA under her fingernails how will he explain that? Or what if it's an unknown source?

I just cannot get past the fact that they only looked at Adnan because of an anonymous phone call and Jay's friend Jenn's statement saying Jay told her Adnan killed Hae. Meanwhile Jay admits to helping bury her and knowing where her car is, but denies that he killed her and walks away with no consequences after his nice plea deal with made by his prosecution-provided lawyer.

I keep feeling like I'm missing something here, but I haven't seen anything that even comes close to real evidence in this case.

That kind of DNA evidence would be significant. That's for sure. Maybe there wasn't any debris nor skin cells under her nails?

But besides Jenn's statement and the anonymous phone call, there are two, other, serious reasons why Adnan was a suspect: He was the recent ex boyfriend. Statistically the likely murderer. And two, Jay told LE that Adnan confessed to him. So there was a lot to point them to him.

While it wasn't "evidence," really, what stood out to me is that when Hae went missing, everybody who knew her was trying to call her, hoping she would answer to say she was okay. Adnan did not make one single phone call to Hae's number after she went missing, even though he had called her multiple times in the days leading up to her disappearance. Very telling, imo.

I felt that was significant as well. Like why call if you know she's dead? But her then current boyfriend Don also didn't call.

Serial is my first exposure to Ms. Koenig.
While listening, I was struck by how she often sounded like a starstruck teenager.
Her voice and vocal cadence grated on my nerves, but I would have overlooked that if I thought the content of what she was saying was worth it. It wasn't.
After reading that interview with the Prosecutor (and yes, I know that is his perspective, so I am sure the "truth" of what happened during the trial is somewhere in the middle), I truly believe that Koenig did not approach Serial with the objectivity that she attempted to portray. She clearly had an agenda, and that agenda included some manipulation of the facts to suit her storyline.

I liked her. Her style didn't bother me at all- I think she's a good storyteller- but her vocal fry started to really get on nerves. Boy that is a trend I wish would disappear.

And yeah, she totally had an agenda. She admitted very openly that she did, that she badly wanted him to be innocent. But her initial bias did not allow her to come off the fence. So I think it was honest storytelling/journalism. Not totally objective, not meant to be, but honest and thus fair.

If she was dishonest she would be certain to publicly determine Adnan was railroaded and publish a story that made the facts fit her conclusion. She didn't do that though. She remained on the fence. Totally.

 

[Soulmagent]

Can you remind me who Debbie is and what the signficance of the sighting is to the timeline? My memory is bad right now!



That kind of DNA evidence would be significant. That's for sure. Maybe there wasn't any debris nor skin cells under her nails?

But besides Jenn's statement and the anonymous phone call, there are two, other, serious reasons why Adnan was a suspect: He was the recent ex boyfriend. Statistically the likely murderer. And two, Jay told LE that Adnan confessed to him. So there was a lot to point them to him.



I felt that was significant as well. Like why call if you know she's dead? But her then current boyfriend Don also didn't call.



I liked her. Her style didn't bother me at all- I think she's a good storyteller- but her vocal fry started to really get on nerves. Boy that is a trend I wish would disappear.

And yeah, she totally had an agenda. She admitted very openly that she did, that she badly wanted him to be innocent. But her initial bias did not allow her to come off the fence. So I think it was honest storytelling/journalism. Not totally objective, not meant to be, but honest and thus fair.

If she was dishonest she would be certain to publicly determine Adnan was railroaded and publish a story that made the facts fit her conclusion. She didn't do that though. She remained on the fence. Totally.

Here is a legal doc that has info on it, She places Adnan in the school at and at 3:30.That is not mentioned in this document ,but it has some good sleuthing stuff.

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-PUUcby-AZWfEhcuW/2002_WL_32510997_djvu.txt

This is a people map from serials website.

http://serialpodcast.org/maps/people-map The debbie info is there.
Hope it helps.

Also, Gitana1,

Have you read the transcripts of the trial?
I saw where the judge asked her once if she was still with them, and saw where she responded with the wrong context at the end of a question. All her legal work ,like the stuff that mattered was done correctly , it has been said. IMO from reading the transcripts available I think she was unfocused for parts of it. Where I heard the recording from trial ,I said to myself ,oh wow she is on pills.. Then I found out she was sick. I dont know if she was on pills but that was my first impression on hearing her.
She also never contacted Asia to see if she would be a good witness, or not so I dont know her motives for that. She might have had a good one,and there was snow on the ground in Jan 14 it iced and snowed. School was closed like she said.
He is an opinion article a guy wrote on the 14 about watching cars sliding around on it.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-01-14/features/9901140248_1_salt-chunk-light-tuna-eyewitness

 

[gitana1]

Here is a legal doc that has info on it, She places Adnan in the school at and at 3:30.That is not mentioned in this document ,but it has some good sleuthing stuff.

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-PUUcby-AZWfEhcuW/2002_WL_32510997_djvu.txt

This is a people map from serials website.

http://serialpodcast.org/maps/people-map The debbie info is there.
Hope it helps.

Also, Gitana1,

Have you read the transcripts of the trial?
I saw where the judge asked her once if she was still with them, and saw where she responded with the wrong context at the end of a question. All her legal work ,like the stuff that mattered was done correctly , it has been said. IMO from reading the transcripts available I think she was unfocused for parts of it. Where I heard the recording from trial ,I said to myself ,oh wow she is on pills.. Then I found out she was sick. I dont know if she was on pills but that was my first impression on hearing her.
She also never contacted Asia to see if she would be a good witness, or not so I dont know her motives for that. She might have had a good one,and there was snow on the ground in Jan 14 it iced and snowed. School was closed like she said.
He is an opinion article a guy wrote on the 14 about watching cars sliding around on it.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-01-14/features/9901140248_1_salt-chunk-light-tuna-eyewitness

No, I haven't read it. I will take a look. I was basing my opinion on the podcast, her reputation, Adnan admitting she wasn't ineffective (which is huge, because he would know that's one of the main grounds for an appeal), and my own knowledge as an attorney.

No trial is perfect. In every single case, lose OR win, you reflect back on things you could've done better. It's fast paced, no sleep, super stressful and you never get to present everything you initially want to or plan to.

But that doesn't mean you didn't present a solid case. And it doesn't mean the lawyer was ineffective. That's actually a really hard thing to prove and there is wide latitude. Your talking about things like falling asleep during trial, not presenting exculpatory evidence without reason, etc.

For example, if Adnan's lawyer knew he wasn't at the library when the gal said he was, it would be an ethical violation for the lawyer to present that evidence.

But I will take a look. Can you tell me what pages stood out to you? TIA!!

 

[Soulmagent]

No, I haven't read it. I will take a look. I was basing my opinion on the podcast, her reputation, Adnan admitting she wasn't ineffective (which is huge, because he would know that's one of the main grounds for an appeal), and my own knowledge as an attorney.

No trial is perfect. In every single case, lose OR win, you reflect back on things you could've done better. It's fast paced, no sleep, super stressful and you never get to present everything you initially want to or plan to.



But that doesn't mean you didn't present a solid case. And it doesn't mean the lawyer was ineffective. That's actually a really hard thing to prove and there is wide latitude. Your talking about things like falling asleep during trial, not presenting exculpatory evidence without reason, etc.

For example, if Adnan's lawyer knew he wasn't at the library when the gal said he was, it would be an ethical violation for the lawyer to present that evidence.

But I will take a look. Can you tell me what pages stood out to you? TIA!!

I dont remember what pages exactly I read them a few weeks ago,when the second trial is released I will post as I read them.

I do remember the Judge asked "Mrs G are you still here with us?" I dont think she was asleep.

 

[Soulmagent]

Transcripts in text format ,thanks to a gifting redditor.

Part 1 jan 28 2000.
http://pastebin.com/CVsvYZff

Part 2 jan 29 2000
http://pastebin.com/mUrW7PtT

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Transcripts in text format ,thanks to a gifting redditor.

Part 1 jan 28 2000.
http://pastebin.com/CVsvYZff

Part 2 jan 29 2000
http://pastebin.com/mUrW7PtT

Is this Trial 1, the mistrial? Or Trial 2? Don't have time to open them and search for the answer myself at the moment, thank you!

ETA thanks for posting them, btw! Both trials have info I want to read.

 

[Soulmagent]

Is this Trial 1, the mistrial? Or Trial 2? Don't have time to open them and search for the answer myself at the moment, thank you!

ETA thanks for posting them, btw! Both trials have info I want to read.

This is the second trial, the first 2 days of it.

 

[Soulmagent]

Today marks 16 years since Hae's murder.

Here the interview she did on the day she was murdered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OQ6Vlv9h-U