Deceased/Not Found MD - Sarah, 3, & Jacob Hoggle, 2, Clarksburg, 9 Sept 2014 *Arrest*

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Highly misleading media headlines are the culprit here.Such as:
Judge: Hoggle mom can't show police where missing kids are
Catherine Hoggle Offers to Take Police to Two Missing Children
Catherine Hoggle in court, claims her missing kids alive, offers to take police to them
Judge won't allow Hoggle out to look for kids

Mentally Ill Mom Offers To Take Police To Her Two Missing Children

From comments in the articles I've read, people seem to think she went to court yesterday and told the prosecutor she wanted to go out with the police to show them where the kids are. This was not the case at all, but many of the articles suggest this. I'll get to what transpired to lead to this in a minute, but want to point out that nothing I've read has suggested she said anything in the court yesterday other than answering the judge when he was asking her if she understood the court proceedings. I've found nothing to suggest she told the prosecutor this, or police, or had her attorney make arrangements about this. What I have read is that the states attorney made this request to the judge "based on information they received," which I'll get to below. Please let me know if you do find anything contrary to this as I do not like being a provider of false information. I have researched at least 11 news sources as of right now.

What appears to have transpired is that she has told Troy and her mother that she would go out with police at some point in the last week, via a phone conversation, and this was relayed to the prosecutor who made a request to the judge to have her released to search for the children. I have no doubt she did say this to her family. But my point is what the media is saying is not the same as what really transpired. Headlines should say, "Catherine Hoggle in court, prosecutor requests her released to search for kids based information received."

I'm not sure what the prosecutor's motive is here to be honest. This seems highly questionable because Montgomery County is supposedly building a homicide case against her, and a request like this could get the case thrown out. Unless - they are doing this as some sort of strategy to cause a reasonable doubt that the children are not alive by giving her a chance to produce the children. Oddly enough, the judge cited that "this could lead to possible self-incrimination" if he allowed her to go out like this.

I feel really bad for the family. A glimmer of hope and it's crushed. To be honest, I think this may have led to even more disappointment and frustration for them. Why? Catherine's lawyer stated that she does not want to go out with the police, so she may have flat out refused to go with them if this was granted. There's also the fact that this wouldn't be the first time she went out with police to "find the children" and it went nowhere. As of last week, she was also making statements that she was in contact with the people who have the children, which was proven to not be true cause outgoing calls are all recorded.

I strongly feel there's going to be resolution in the case within weeks. Why? The prosecutor made mention of "superceding an indictment in this matter" and also mentions "final decisions will come in the next couple weeks" which appears to be regarding homicide charges. Which means her defense attorney is going to have to make some quick moves in the next week if MC is about to drop serious charges on her. Which I suspect might be some plea bargaining in exchange for the children's whereabouts. Her mother stated she seems ready to talk about this now, whether it's on her own or knowledge of where the legal proceedings are is anyone's guess.
 
Greetings all - I haven't posted in quite a while, but I've followed this case since early on.
I have a few questions ~
1) Has there been any additional information regarding CH's mental health history? As best I can tell, the only info we've heard (from TT) is that she became "psychotic" last year around the holidays. Prior to that, there seems to be nothing.... That seems almost unbelievable to me, as I would think that there had to have been other major incidents prior to her all of a sudden becoming psychotic.
2) Do we know for a fact that TT's mother was the individual who "had her committed", according to various reports? Was there ever any clarification as to whether or not it was an involuntary committal, or what the circumstances were?
3) Has there been any reports of CH ever reporting any incidents of abuse by TT?
4) Has there been a SINGLE friend or associate of CH who has spoken publicly about her at all? It seems odd, quite frankly, that she didn't have any friends or associates who have publicly reached out to her, or spoken in her defense.
5) Do we have any idea what the relationship between TT /his family & CH's family is like? Have they appeared together publicly? Do they seem to be supportive of each other?
5) Could it be possible that perhaps her children WERE in danger, and she is sacrificing herself in order to keep them away from TT?
6) Could it be possible, if that were the case, that there is an underground network that assists abused women/children (they do exist) that is helping by keeping the children hidden?
 
I'm just confused about this whole thing!
If she has killed her children and is not saying where they are is it because she doesn't remember? Doesn't want to go to prison? Can't believe she actually did it?
Do you lose memory in a psychotic break? If you know you did it and just aren't telling us that just manipulative and using mental illness to cover?
Id really like to know the reason behind her not saying anything!!!


MOO!!
 
She isn't saying anything because she is still in the middle of a psychotic episode in which she believes the children are somewhere safe and will only remain safe if they stay there.

As for suggesting that her husband is abusive and has somehow managed to convince numerous HCPs that she is schizophrenic when she isn't is completely ridiculous. A diagnosis of Paranoid Schizophrenia is not easy to come across and wouldn't be completed by just one person.

You are all trying to work out her behaviour from a rational starting point. But she isn't anywhere close to rational. She is SEVERELY mentally ill. Schizophrenia isn't mild depression. You don't pop a pill, do some exercise and get on with your day. It is an extremely debilitating and isolating illness. It is all encompassing. It is a physical illness of the brain.

She is not evil. She needs treatment and support. If she has killed the children I really don't think she will ever face trial because she will probably be found insane or whatever form of insane that leaves her with diminished responsibility.
 
I'm just confused about this whole thing!
If she has killed her children and is not saying where they are is it because she doesn't remember? Doesn't want to go to prison? Can't believe she actually did it?
Do you lose memory in a psychotic break? If you know you did it and just aren't telling us that just manipulative and using mental illness to cover?
Id really like to know the reason behind her not saying anything!!!


MOO!!

I've already spoken about my experiences of psychosis.

I don't believe that she would be pretending. The doctors are watching her in the psych unit, if they had any inkling that she was faking they would haul her *advertiser censored* back to jail faster than you could say Schizophrenic! A secure psych unit isn't exactly an easy option. They are horrible places, with many other severely mentally ill people around you. It is by no way the easy option!
 
I've already spoken about my experiences of psychosis.

I don't believe that she would be pretending. The doctors are watching her in the psych unit, if they had any inkling that she was faking they would haul her *advertiser censored* back to jail faster than you could say Schizophrenic! A secure psych unit isn't exactly an easy option. They are horrible places, with many other severely mentally ill people around you. It is by no way the easy option!

I don't doubt she is mentally ill, I guess I'm just confused about recollection? Had she completely blanked it out? Does she not remember? Or does she remember what she did with the kids and thinks it's not real? Or does she know and just isn't saying.


MOO!!
 
Greetings all - I haven't posted in quite a while, but I've followed this case since early on.
I have a few questions ~
1) Has there been any additional information regarding CH's mental health history? As best I can tell, the only info we've heard (from TT) is that she became "psychotic" last year around the holidays. Prior to that, there seems to be nothing.... That seems almost unbelievable to me, as I would think that there had to have been other major incidents prior to her all of a sudden becoming psychotic.
2) Do we know for a fact that TT's mother was the individual who "had her committed", according to various reports? Was there ever any clarification as to whether or not it was an involuntary committal, or what the circumstances were?
3) Has there been any reports of CH ever reporting any incidents of abuse by TT?
4) Has there been a SINGLE friend or associate of CH who has spoken publicly about her at all? It seems odd, quite frankly, that she didn't have any friends or associates who have publicly reached out to her, or spoken in her defense.
5) Do we have any idea what the relationship between TT /his family & CH's family is like? Have they appeared together publicly? Do they seem to be supportive of each other?
5) Could it be possible that perhaps her children WERE in danger, and she is sacrificing herself in order to keep them away from TT?
6) Could it be possible, if that were the case, that there is an underground network that assists abused women/children (they do exist) that is helping by keeping the children hidden?
1)She has suffered from mental illness for many years:
"For more than a decade, Lindsey Hoggle has tried to sort through her daughter’s tangled mind. Never has it been so heartbreaking."
"The first signs of trouble came when Catherine, the oldest of four, was in middle school..."
read more at http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...c3f3f4-5df8-11e4-91f7-5d89b5e8c251_story.html

2)From the article it sounds like the entire family (her parents and boyfriend) was involved in having her committed and it also mentions several incidences that happened last year

3)Not that I have seen

4) not that I know of, but it is not uncommon for a person with such sever mental illness to have few or no friends

5) they are all very supportive , according to the article "Troy set up a network — one that included her parents, T’s mother, his sister, Catherine’s siblings, T’s friends and a babysitter. They tried to always have a second adult near Catherine and the children." Unfortunately, because she seemed to being doing better her father thought it was ok for her to take the son to get pizza by herself.

Not sure about them appearing publicly as I have not followed that aspect of the case I wouldn't be surprised, though, if there was tension btw T & Catherine's dad because he didn't tell T about the "sleepover." T may have handled the morning much differently than he did and maybe would have woken early and prevente dher form taking the daughter out of the house.

5-6) Highly doubt it. She is clearly mentally ill. It is not easy to get someone involuntarily committed. The entirely family was involved trying to keep her safe and spend time with the kids. If any of her family thought the kids' dad was abusive, I am sure her parents would have spoken up by now. It sounds like her boyfriend did everything her could to keep this mother in his kids's lives.
If an underground network that assisted abused women/children had the kids, they would surely have turned the children over to the authorities once they realized the severity of the mother's mental illness. They are there to help kids after all, not keep them away from concerned parents.

I am certain this was all her doing. Sadly, I think the kids were killed. As someone mentioned up thread, they are "safe with Gd."
 
I am bothered by this:
Two hours later, Catherine returned alone. She said she’d left Jacob at a friend’s house for a planned sleepover. The slightly smaller crowd — R [her dad], Catherine, Catherine’s oldest son and Sarah — returned to the Clarksburg apartment.
I wonder why her dad did not question where Jacob was? Did she pack things for him to use at the sleepover? When was this supposedly 'planned'?. Because "T [kids dad] arrived from work about midnight. He noticed that Jacob wasn’t in his toddler bed in the master bedroom. That wasn’t unusual. The little boy often got up and crawled into bed with a sibling. T went to sleep."
-- if there really was a planned sleepover, why would he even look for Jacob in the bed at home? For a family that made sure she was not left alone with her kids, it is very, very odd that the father did not question her more the night before.

It is also disturbing because this sounds like something she planned. The two kids were not taken away at the same time, but at two different times. She made sure that she left the house with her daughter before the boyfriend woke up. At the very least, the girl's disappearance was not spur of the moment.

I do think that once the boyfriend realized what was going on, he tried to placate her in order to get her to tell him what was going on. I think he knew something was wrong early on but felt he had to approach her carefully. Maybe he thought going to her treatment program would help.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...c3f3f4-5df8-11e4-91f7-5d89b5e8c251_story.html
 
I don't doubt she is mentally ill, I guess I'm just confused about recollection? Had she completely blanked it out? Does she not remember? Or does she remember what she did with the kids and thinks it's not real? Or does she know and just isn't saying.


MOO!!

She knows what she is doing, and what she knows exactly what she did. She is using the mental illness as a cover to make sure she isn't held accountable for her actions. Apparently, a lot of people agree with her methods and tactics. "I'm mentally ill, you can't blame me for what happened"........

If you go back to the beginning of the thread, you will see how much in control of the situation she was in.

Day one--one kid vanishes,

Day 2--second kid vanishes, mom manages to sneak away from father at restaurant----

Rest of the week---mom manages to hide and elude authorities while cutting her hair to change her appearance. She has a missing persons flyer in her pocket with her own picture on it. When recognized, she attempts to flee the scene.

After arrest---Mom refuse to divulge any information about the missing children or their whereabouts. This is pretty typical of every person we encounter in here that has harmed a child, nothing out of the ordinary.

Hardly sounds like someone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. IIRC Her mental illness diagnosis was less than a year old, and who knows if there was ever a second opinion requested either.

Sounds like she is running the whole show to me...........and still is.
 
IIRC Her mental illness diagnosis was less than a year old, and who knows if there was ever a second opinion requested either.
She wasn't simply diagnosed with a mental illness, she was involuntarily committed. In Maryland, the law requires a psychiatric evaluation by two physicians or a physician and a psychologist. She was then sent to a facility and treated by a doctor who was likely not one of the two who had her committed. And isn;t she under treatment now? I think she diagnosis is correct.
 
She knows what she is doing, and what she knows exactly what she did. She is using the mental illness as a cover to make sure she isn't held accountable for her actions. Apparently, a lot of people agree with her methods and tactics. "I'm mentally ill, you can't blame me for what happened"........

If you go back to the beginning of the thread, you will see how much in control of the situation she was in.

Day one--one kid vanishes,

Day 2--second kid vanishes, mom manages to sneak away from father at restaurant----

Rest of the week---mom manages to hide and elude authorities while cutting her hair to change her appearance. She has a missing persons flyer in her pocket with her own picture on it. When recognized, she attempts to flee the scene.

After arrest---Mom refuse to divulge any information about the missing children or their whereabouts. This is pretty typical of every person we encounter in here that has harmed a child, nothing out of the ordinary.

Hardly sounds like someone who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. IIRC Her mental illness diagnosis was less than a year old, and who knows if there was ever a second opinion requested either.

Sounds like she is running the whole show to me...........and still is.

I can understand why people may think this.

I guess that unless you have personal experience of this type of severe mental illness, or you know someone who suffers from it, its difficult to understand.

No one said that Schizophrenia didn't make someone manipulative or take away their ability to forward plan. It doesn't. Planning and controlling a situation isn't the problem, its the perception of reality that is the issue. The reason for the plan not the execution.

She has a dx of Paranoid Schizophrenia. A paranoid person will of course cut their hair, and carry a flyer that shows their face. That was actually maybe the only time her paranoia was justified!!! People were actually out to get her, it wasn't just in her head. And the flyer was physical proof.

Its very easy to lob her in with all the other evil people we see in cases on here and in general, but to do that is to say that you have no faith in the medical personnel that have actually met her and treated her, not just read some articles about her on the internet.
 
Hi Everyone!
My 1st time posting but definetly not my 1st time here. Been lurking since Caylee Marie went missing.

This story has me so attached...
So I checked out her Facebook page. The one that has only 1 friend and I read her status on Dec. 21st.
*https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100006426429383&tsid=0.3982102470472455&source=typeahead

Anywho I was trying to see if she had another Facebook page. I found this one... Not sure if it has been posted but I am sure it's her because I found it by using her phone # that's listed on the arrest warrant. And there is a status post identical to the one above. But this one was posted 1sr on Dec. 19. The last line has me very intrigued of what happen...
...I'd like to tell you I'm disappointed in you...
And I wonder if she used this name to get a phone under or credit cards... Etc.
*https://m.facebook.com/cathy.guardianella?fref=ts&tsid=0.8944203762803227&source=typeahead

I don't know who to contact but this may be helpful. Maybe she rented a storage unit or something?!? Not sure I just want those beautiful babies found. And if the case be let the family have closure.
 
This case is very disturbing. I can't excuse her in any way, I wish they could put more pressure on her to reveal where the children are & what happened to them, but I do believe she suffers from a significant mental illness. The story in the WAPost this past week outlined all the things her family & the father of her children have dealt with, & the progression of her illness.
 
Hi Everyone!
My 1st time posting but definetly not my 1st time here. Been lurking since Caylee Marie went missing.

This story has me so attached...
So I checked out her Facebook page. The one that has only 1 friend and I read her status on Dec. 21st.
*https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100006426429383&tsid=0.3982102470472455&source=typeahead

Anywho I was trying to see if she had another Facebook page. I found this one... Not sure if it has been posted but I am sure it's her because I found it by using her phone # that's listed on the arrest warrant. And there is a status post identical to the one above. But this one was posted 1sr on Dec. 19. The last line has me very intrigued of what happen...
...I'd like to tell you I'm disappointed in you...
And I wonder if she used this name to get a phone under or credit cards... Etc.
*https://m.facebook.com/cathy.guardianella?fref=ts&tsid=0.8944203762803227&source=typeahead

I don't know who to contact but this may be helpful. Maybe she rented a storage unit or something?!? Not sure I just want those beautiful babies found. And if the case be let the family have closure.
Wow, that's a great find. It may be worth passing on to LE. According to the Washington Post article upthread, you can call the Montgomery County police at 240-773-5070.
 
yes I'd call that in, heck it couldn't hurt, you never know, and who knows what LE knows or not...one little thing might help
 
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