MD MD - Sr. Catherine Cesnik, 26, Baltimore, 7 Nov 1969 "The Keepers"

[kemo]

There is no question that abuse occurred a Keough but this inclusion of recovered memory "evidence" bothers me. I remember the Satanic Panic era very well and I saw how innocent people were railroaded into prison.

I have no training in psychology and no experience, directly or indirectly with the phenomenon of "recovered memory" but I do know that most of the science behind it has been discredited and the research on it has not been conducted with the level of rigor and peer review that would normally be expected before life and death decisions can be made based on such memories. The truth is that memory is always a bit problematic.

Were I a juror in court, I would discount any witness who claimed to have had no memory of a traumatic event until it somehow "resurfaced" years later. I'm not saying I don't believe it could happen; only that there would be no way to gauge its credibility.

Unfortunately, in this situation, without the "evidence" provided by Jane Doe, that Fr Maskell took her to Sr Cesnik's body, the theory of the crime become little more than conjecture. I think it very possible that she died at the hand of a Serial Killer who also killed Joyce Malecki and Pamela Conyers.

 

[HoneyWest]

It is very possible that she was killed by the same person who killed the other girls. If one goes with that theory, then the memories of Jane Doe have to be dismissed. That's where I have some difficulty. She also had repressed memories surface about the abuse she suffered at Keough. Would that be dismissed as well? I want to believe Jane Doe...if only there was something or someone to corroborate her seeing Cathy's body. I think her memory of the maggots count for something there.

This case is just so confusing, with so many abuse victims and so many abusers, then throw in a few murdered young women and what do you get? If I can discount Jane Doe's memories, then I can buy the serial killer theory. There's the rub...I just can't get myself to.

 

[msvick66]

Don't forget the other woman who says she went to Cathy's the night before to talk to her and Maskell and Magnus burst in, then later threatened to kill her and her boyfriend/family if she told anyone. That puts him on the premises very close to the time of the murder and presenting a threatening, menacing presence. I think the sexual abuse is a given, there are too many women telling similar stories.

As for recovered memories, though I don't think Jane Doe mentioned it, several of the women (and there were up to a hundred who were not featured in this documentary) talked about having fuzzy memories due to likely being drugged. There is no reason to think that if he drugged all these other girls that he didn't do the same to Jane Doe. This could be why her memories are so hazy, but they are there, just difficult to retrieve possibly. He had a doctor working with him that could prescribe whatever he needed. There was also talk of hypnosis. I don't know if I believe that, but if it's possible the way it is usually portrayed involves forgetting things. Maybe hypnosis was used under the influence of drugs to make it more viable. Not sure about that--again, I am skeptical of hypnosis. I could definitely believe the girls could have been told they were hypnotized as part of psychological therapy when he was really just drugging them and using hypnosis to account for why they cannot remember everything about what went on during their 'sessions'.

Cathy's murder was first and Joyce's the same week. The other two were much later. Who's to say Maskell wouldn't tell whoever he got to do the murders they should rape them. He was twisted sexually and associated with others who also were. Maybe this is a bit out there, but is it possible that if a man came in to his confessional confessing sexual perversion or even admitting to rape, that he wouldn't immediately latch onto that type of personality? He would have leverage over them if so as well. Do what he asks or risk exposure. The man was so evil I don't think it's out of the question.

 

[LaneGirl]

Compartmentalizing memories yes. Fuzzy memories yes. But I'm still grappling with "repressed" memories. I am still doing some research and hope someone in the mental health arena will come in and help with this. I just couldn't go forward after episode 3 and I'm not sure why. Its as if something is "off".

I absolutely believe in the abuse. There are too many to discount it. But repressed memories of seeing a body even though she had seen maggots which turned out to be true it still seems "off" and I don't know why.

 

[SuzieQue]

Because the body was shown to Jane Doe and another woman was shown the body.

https://insidebaltimore.org/2015/01...e-was-shown-body-of-murdered-baltimore-nun-2/

 

[LaneGirl]

I think were I get an "off" feeling is with the "repressed" memory of seeing the body.

 

[SuzieQue]

Repressed memories are indeed real. First had experience.

It is when suggestions are made that things get murky.
The fact that another woman was also taken to see the body proves Jane Doe's exprience.

 

[Truthy]

Hypnosis can make a person very vulnerable and compliant, and could be done in the guise of a therapeutic conversation. You can erase the person's memory of the session. I've had that happen to me. Also I think having been hypnotized leaves you a bit more capable of burying things in your own subconscious through the process of pushing them down. I've been hypnotized a few times - sometimes it didn't work (I was in a contrarian mindset) and other times went deep. I've practiced self hypnosis with limited success on myself. I've also buried memories sort of deliberately to the point (kept telling myself not to think about it, that there was no point in remembering it) where they were completely forgotten for a couple of years, and they emerged in a strikingly similar way as she described-sparked by something similar, and them bit by bit as if I was throwing them up. I was quite shocked I could repress them, I'd always thought that was just nonsense. But I have no doubt about what happened- I recall spending an entire day thinking about it while telling myself I couldn't handle thinking about it, and I knew I'd tell no one. I felt myself literally pushing it down till it was out of sight. Personally her description of the recovering the memories sounded eerily familiar.

 

[kemo]

A fundamental problem hanging over any investigation of sexual abuse at Keough is that the scandal broke in the early 1990's during the Satanic Panic era when there were widespread stories of all kinds of sexual abuse going on in trusted institutions and victims coming forward with incredible stories of abuse tended to be believed without question.

Of course some who knew all along that they had been abused now found the confidence that they would finally be believed but others saw an opportunity for some attention and others, hearing stories of abuse, came to truly believe things had happened to them that they previously had no memory of.

People came forward with not only "memories" of sexual abuse but Satanic orgies and depraved acts of murder, cannibalism and human sacrifice. People were arrested, prosecuted and sentenced to decades in prison with no evidence save questionable memories of victims. Others were never prosecuted but enough people believed the accusations that careers were destroyed, families broken and lives ruined.

Along with those who thought they were abused, were those that suspected/imagined/knew that friends, relatives or acquaintances were involved in these activities. News stories of abuse, murders or other high profile crimes generated hundreds of "leads" from citizens reporting their suspicion. You have to wonder how credible the leads were that turned up the various "suspects" identified in this documentary. Unless there is solid physical evidence, I am not ready to trust anyone's memory in these kinds of cases. If folks recollections are all we have, the case will probably never be solved. Some are going to be satisfied that Fr Maskell had Sr Cesnik murdered to shut her up, but many others, like myself, will remain skeptical and her friends and family will get no satisfaction.

 

[Mercedes]

Compartmentalizing memories yes. Fuzzy memories yes. But I'm still grappling with "repressed" memories. I am still doing some research and hope someone in the mental health arena will come in and help with this. I just couldn't go forward after episode 3 and I'm not sure why. Its as if something is "off".

I absolutely believe in the abuse. There are too many to discount it. But repressed memories of seeing a body even though she had seen maggots which turned out to be true it still seems "off" and I don't know why.

LaneGirl,

There is a lot of research also on "planted memories." Just saying

 

[msvick66]

At the end of that article that the link went to about another girl being shown the body by policemen, it mentions the possibility she had been pulled over by police that night. I am leaning towards it being one of Maskell's cops that were participating in these rapes as being the killer. It could have even been two police cars. This would definitely be a way to get Cathy to comply. She was probably accosted as she was returning to the apartment. The only thing that's odd for that scenario is the twig hanging from the steering wheel or turn signal and I think they mentioned mud on her car? That makes one think they took her car to the dump site and then brought it back. But if they were going to abandon it why make it stick out like that? Why not just park it normally somewhere?

Either way, I am pretty well convinced the cops covered it up because a cop was actually the one (or two) who physically killed her and dumped her body. They would have done it at the behest or with the full knowledge of Maskell. It's not hard to believe since we know that many girls said they were raped by a few different cops, so they would have motive for the murder and the cover up. This is also why they won't investigate properly nearly 50 years later.

 

[avaami]

I have thoughts like that too and then I think, well you have Jane Doe's recovered memories. And the reason that I believe her is because I've read in articles that her details of the crime scene were only know to investigators at the time. And then you also have the maggot situation.

Aside from that, in an article I read, Deep Throat said he once got a call from a superior telling him "This is a career buster. We knew who the hell killed her back when it happened. You'll find out. And you'll find out things you shouldn't. Let it go." And I read another article in which police officers allegedly told victims that they knew he [Maskell] was involved [with Cathy's death] but they couldn't do anything about it.

With a pedophile ring as big as this and with so much at stake, I don't think the simple option is the best option here. I think that's a slippery slope to charging innocent people. And after watching the documentary, reading articles, and seeing the Archdiocese's own responses; to me, it's clear that there is a cover-up at play here. That's why I can't logically accept that Sr Cathy's murder had no tie to it all.

 

[Suglo]

A fundamental problem hanging over any investigation of sexual abuse at Keough is that the scandal broke in the early 1990's during the Satanic Panic era when there were widespread stories of all kinds of sexual abuse going on in trusted institutions and victims coming forward with incredible stories of abuse tended to be believed without question.

Of course some who knew all along that they had been abused now found the confidence that they would finally be believed but others saw an opportunity for some attention and others, hearing stories of abuse, came to truly believe things had happened to them that they previously had no memory of.

People came forward with not only "memories" of sexual abuse but Satanic orgies and depraved acts of murder, cannibalism and human sacrifice. People were arrested, prosecuted and sentenced to decades in prison with no evidence save questionable memories of victims. Others were never prosecuted but enough people believed the accusations that careers were destroyed, families broken and lives ruined.

Along with those who thought they were abused, were those that suspected/imagined/knew that friends, relatives or acquaintances were involved in these activities. News stories of abuse, murders or other high profile crimes generated hundreds of "leads" from citizens reporting their suspicion. You have to wonder how credible the leads were that turned up the various "suspects" identified in this documentary. Unless there is solid physical evidence, I am not ready to trust anyone's memory in these kinds of cases. If folks recollections are all we have, the case will probably never be solved. Some are going to be satisfied that Fr Maskell had Sr Cesnik murdered to shut her up, but many others, like myself, will remain skeptical and her friends and family will get no satisfaction.

I feel the same way. I also have an issue with Deep Throat. The women have all bared their souls and gone public. It's his turn.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Am I the only one who thinks Gerry did it? He had a very clear motive. He had just been rejected by her. And her letter makes it sound like they were having sex. ( do we even know she wrote that letter? It was typed. He could have typed it.)

He said their relationship was platonic, but her letter said they were romantic. So he lied. And WTF was that story about her vagina wrapped in newspaper!?!

She had already been gone for four months. Why would the priests come after her that long after she had left? Why would she wait that long to report any abuse?

I do believe the abuse happened, but I just don't think it is related to sister Cathy's murder.

And I do not believe the recovered memory about Jane Doe being taken to see the dead body. The police said that maggots would not be present in the time period between November and January. It was too cold. Of course, that means we have to believe the police, and I am not a bug expert, so I don't know if that is true. But I don't see why anyone would risk being exposed as a murderer by showing somebody a dead body.

Gerry had motive, means, and opportunity. I think he is the simplest answer and the suspect that makes the most sense.

 

[LaneGirl]

Repressed memories are indeed real. First had experience.

It is when suggestions are made that things get murky.
The fact that another woman was also taken to see the body proves Jane Doe's exprience.

except they were in different locations correct?

I'm not automatically dismissing I promise. I just have a few issues with it. These are not children were are talking about teens.

 

[HoneyWest]

Am I the only one who thinks Gerry did it? He had a very clear motive. He had just been rejected by her. And her letter makes it sound like they were having sex. ( do we even know she wrote that letter? It was typed. He could have typed it.)

He said their relationship was platonic, but her letter said they were romantic. So he lied. And WTF was that story about her vagina wrapped in newspaper!?!

She had already been gone for four months. Why would the priests come after her that long after she had left? Why would she wait that long to report any abuse?

I do believe the abuse happened, but I just don't think it is related to sister Cathy's murder.

And I do not believe the recovered memory about Jane Doe being taken to see the dead body. The police said that maggots would not be present in the time period between November and January. It was too cold. Of course, that means we have to believe the police, and I am not a bug expert, so I don't know if that is true. But I don't see why anyone would risk being exposed as a murderer by showing somebody a dead body.

Gerry had motive, means, and opportunity. I think he is the simplest answer and the suspect that makes the most sense.

I briefly considered Gerry, but put him aside because he doesn't seem like he has it in him to murder someone.

Regarding the maggots, didn't the police confirm there were maggots on the body, but had kept that information from the public? The interviewer disclosed Jane Doe's memory of the maggots to the officer (I forget his name) and he was surprised that she mentioned them.

 

[JaimeInLA]

I briefly considered Gerry, but put him aside because he doesn't seem like he has it in him to murder someone.

Regarding the maggots, didn't the police confirm there were maggots on the body, but had kept that information from the public? The interviewer disclosed Jane Doe's memory of the maggots to the officer (I forget his name) and he was surprised that she mentioned them.

Yes, I just finished episode 6, so now I am caught up on the maggots. I will go back and delete that part of my comment. You are correct!

Oops - it is too late to edit my original comment. So let's all just disregard the part about the maggots.

I definitely think Gerry had it in him. He made me uncomfortable.

 

[LaneGirl]

I briefly considered Gerry, but put him aside because he doesn't seem like he has it in him to murder someone.

Regarding the maggots, didn't the police confirm there were maggots on the body, but had kept that information from the public? The interviewer disclosed Jane Doe's memory of the maggots to the officer (I forget his name) and he was surprised that she mentioned them.

Yes she said on the face. LE said no way for that time of year but autopsy disclosed maggots in the mouth and throat.

This is the part that makes my hinky meter go off.

I believe Jane Doe, but I don't think as a teenager she had "repressed" memories. I think maybe she was actually afraid of LE.

ETA - I've not watched based episode 3.

 

[HoneyWest]

Yes she said on the face. LE said no way for that time of year but autopsy disclosed maggots in the mouth and throat.

This is the part that makes my hinky meter go off.

I believe Jane Doe, but I don't think as a teenager she had "repressed" memories. I think maybe she was actually afraid of LE.

ETA - I've not watched based episode 3.

Oh! Sorry all! I binge-watched the whole series about a week ago, so naturally I assume everyone else did as well.

 

[LaneGirl]

Oh! Sorry all! I binge-watched the whole series about a week ago, so naturally I assume everyone else did as well.

No need to apologize.

I stopped watching after episode 3 because I had a hinkey meter go off about a teenagers "repressed" memories. I think I can understand a child's repressed memories but I guess I can't a teenagers.

I'm not saying I disagree that Jane Doe saw what she saw I actually believe her, I just think she was scared of LE to come forward until she was an adult.