ME ME - Ayla Reynolds, 20 mnths, Waterville, 17 December 2011 - # 7

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BBM ~ I think that if any of the females were physically involved helping JD in the "cover up and disposal" that CMA (as in cover-my-azz) would be uppermost in their minds. Lying is one thing, that is bad enough, but if one of them had so much as touched this helpless baby, they are their own worst enemy. I suppose they may claim they were forced to help, but I will not shed a tear for them. I hope the truth escapes from one of them.

IMHO

I think it will, even if not intentionally. I would be very surprised if their every word and move isn't being recorded. I think that would be uppermost in their mind, themselves, not even their children, but themselves. I'm just thinking that he wouldn't trust them with it, Drug users are notoriously paranoid but, I'm not sure if he could do it alone. So, who is the one person in the world he probably thinks wouldn't ever roll over on him? His mama.
 
My DH just said that these people were not bonded to AYLA.
She was just an object that was forced on them to care for?
Then he said in some families children are disposable, just make another.
I wasn't going to say this, but it makes sense in some of these cases.

That's pretty much what profiler Pat Brown said about people like that. She said they feel about the child like it is a puppy. All is fun with the taking pics and playing until they get tired of doing that. That's when the problems start.
 
Okay...I might be waaay out there on this thought. But that is just what it is...a thought.

Have we heard ANY communication from Elisha? Is there a reason why she may not be ABLE to communicate? (As opposed to CHOOSING not to communicate) Is she impaired in some way? (I am not at all asking this in judgement or sarcasm.) But could there be a reason why others would cover for her?

Like I said..this is just a thought. And, though it may be on purpose to protect the case, I have not received the impression that she is a fully functioning human from media reports.
JMO
See the parking Lot thread, it appears that she is ok.
 
Crazy, I've been hearing "Occams Razor" in my head all day long. I HAVE to understand why a mother would protect someone that did something like this and then on top of it live with their little child in the same house? How terrifying could that even be! I just think there has to be some other reason they haven't rolled on him, some reason besides loyalty. These people know the legal system, they would take drug/endangerment charges in a heartbeat over charges relating to the murder and disposal of a child, I mean, wouldn't they?

There's a phenomenon called "Groupthink" that can overcome Occams Razor.

It's the sociological fact that sometimes people will go along with a leader and march right into trouble. People might be aware that they are going wrong, and someone might be tempted to say "no," but out of loyalty they won't rock the boat. They want to belong to that little group. So the whole group follows the leader out on a limb in what they call a "risky shift" that they wouldn't take by themselves.

This happens many times in cases like this when family loyalty comes before right, wrong, or common sense.

What are clues that this is happening? The fact that the Phoebe D. went along with the story that she was at home even though she knew that wasn't true. The fact that some blogger is posting several versions of the story, and that Justin is the one who gave them to her.

I see Justin as the leader of the "risky shift." Ayla was his child. Everyone else involved is somehow connected to him or is taking their cues from him. No one is really thinking for themselves yet and speaking out because they know it will make the family angry, and they want that in-group because it's all they have.

http://www.psysr.org/about/pubs_resources/groupthink overview.htm

Janis has documented eight symptoms of groupthink:

1. Illusion of invulnerability –Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.
(if people have gotten away with things in the past, then they have confidence in trying again under dire circumstances: hiding a body, lying to police, making up stories)

2. Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.
(They all must have good reasons for handling things this way, and meanwhile, no one is talking, everyone is lying, and they believe that's going to work for them)

3. Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.
(They thought Ayla would be better off with Justin because he thinks he is a superior parent and his family is morally superior. They still think they control what happens because Ayla belonged to them and it was their house - erroneous. It doesn't matter if drinking, drugs, or anything else was going on - they still know better than anyone what is "good for Ayla")

4. Stereotyped views of out-groups – Negative views of “enemy” make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.
(Trista was the enemy, the police are the enemy, now the suspicious public is the enemy, while the family is above everyone else)

5. Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group’s views.
(Again, no one is talking out of some type of fear, and maybe they are sworn to secrecy)

6. Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed.
(Phoebe DiP stuck with her "at home" story even on National TV - couldn't break with the group)

7. Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.
(This is the weak point - who will make a deal and break the vow of silence? Who is worried about custody of their own children? But Justin the leader probably still believes everyone is on board with the lies.)

8. Self-appointed ‘mindguards’ – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group’s cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.
(This blogger friend of Justin's appointed herself spokesperson and writes that everything is fine, everyone in the family is on the same page, and nothing is wrong except that Ayla is gone and the public is too suspicious. She attacks any different theory as vicious, and thinks everyone should just accept that Ayla is living somewhere else where she is just fine, fine, fine. She's like the spokesperson for denial. )
 
Okay...I might be waaay out there on this thought. But that is just what it is...a thought.

Have we heard ANY communication from Elisha? Is there a reason why she may not be ABLE to communicate? (As opposed to CHOOSING not to communicate) Is she impaired in some way? (I am not at all asking this in judgement or sarcasm.) But could there be a reason why others would cover for her?

Like I said..this is just a thought. And, though it may be on purpose to protect the case, I have not received the impression that she is a fully functioning human from media reports.
JMO

She is only 19. If it were my 19 yr old daughter I would not want her to make any public comments either.
 
She is only 19. If it were my 19 yr old daughter I would not want her to make any public comments either.

I honestly feel sorry for her. She's probably got all these people - Mom, Big Brother, Friends - telling her what to do and she may not have the maturity at that age to break away and look out for herself. (See my post above)
 
THOUGHTFOX
Great post, could go for so many like the Anthony's and Cummings family also!
and they got away with so much!!! murder to say the least, IMO
 
She is only 19. If it were my 19 yr old daughter I would not want her to make any public comments either.

An article posted today said she is 23. Either way, she is over 18 and apparently old enough to be a mother.
 
are all 3 children in the terrible 2's????
Could 1 of the children have pushed AYLA
and they all are protecting a child?
Just another random thought...............
 
Idk. . .I'm still more inclined to think whatever happened happened long before the 16th. I know I read, but I don't remember where, that 12/8 was the last day TR spoke to Ayla. . .after that JD kept putting her off. We also have the missed Dr's appt. I believe there was some social media "clean-up" that also happened before the 16th. Has anybody been able to find any pics of JD taken before this happened besides the one of him holding Ayla? I thought it was reported that he and CR dated on and off for 5yrs, but yet no pics of him on any of CR's sites. It's very odd.

If Ayla suffered abuse at the hands of JD, it wouldn't be the first time PD covered for him, IMHO. I actually think she might be the most culpable next to JD. There's a reason she was not there the night Ayla was reported missing. There has to be some reason that is keeping them all quiet. My gut tells me it has something to do with CR's sister's bust. 1000 pills is not small time drug dealing, it is major distribution. . .something like $100,000 worth. . .just the pills. . .and CR lived with her. Hmmmmm. . . .:waitasec:
 
I hadn't even thought of this, but reading your thoughts....it reminds me of the case in Ohio where the Father claims he has sent his 3 sons off for safe keeping. Can't think of the name right now, but sure you all know who I am talking about.

Tanner, Alexander and Andrew Skelton. Beautiful little boys that still haven't been found :(
 
Idk. . .I'm still more inclined to think whatever happened happened long before the 16th. I know I read, but I don't remember where, that 12/8 was the last day TR spoke to Ayla. . .after that JD kept putting her off. We also have the missed Dr's appt. I believe there was some social media "clean-up" that also happened before the 16th. Has anybody been able to find any pics of JD taken before this happened besides the one of him holding Ayla? I thought it was reported that he and CR dated on and off for 5yrs, but yet no pics of him on any of CR's sites. It's very odd.

If Ayla suffered abuse at the hands of JD, it wouldn't be the first time PD covered for him, IMHO. I actually think she might be the most culpable next to JD. There's a reason she was not there the night Ayla was reported missing. There has to be some reason that is keeping them all quiet. My gut tells me it has something to do with CR's sister's bust. 1000 pills is not small time drug dealing, it is major distribution. . .something like $100,000 worth. . .just the pills. . .and CR lived with her. Hmmmmm. . . .:waitasec:

I realy hope it's not that complicated. Finding Alya would be delayed possibly. The sister part and drugs. jmo
 
There's a phenomenon called "Groupthink" that can overcome Occams Razor.

It's the sociological fact that sometimes people will go along with a leader and march right into trouble. People might be aware that they are going wrong, and someone might be tempted to say "no," but out of loyalty they won't rock the boat. They want to belong to that little group. So the whole group follows the leader out on a limb in what they call a "risky shift" that they wouldn't take by themselves.

This happens many times in cases like this when family loyalty comes before right, wrong, or common sense.

What are clues that this is happening? The fact that the Phoebe D. went along with the story that she was at home even though she knew that wasn't true. The fact that some blogger is posting several versions of the story, and that Justin is the one who gave them to her.

I see Justin as the leader of the "risky shift." Ayla was his child. Everyone else involved is somehow connected to him or is taking their cues from him. No one is really thinking for themselves yet and speaking out because they know it will make the family angry, and they want that in-group because it's all they have.

http://www.psysr.org/about/pubs_resources/groupthink overview.htm

Janis has documented eight symptoms of groupthink:

1. Illusion of invulnerability –Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.
(if people have gotten away with things in the past, then they have confidence in trying again under dire circumstances: hiding a body, lying to police, making up stories)

2. Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.
(They all must have good reasons for handling things this way, and meanwhile, no one is talking, everyone is lying, and they believe that's going to work for them)

3. Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.
(They thought Ayla would be better off with Justin because he thinks he is a superior parent and his family is morally superior. They still think they control what happens because Ayla belonged to them and it was their house - erroneous. It doesn't matter if drinking, drugs, or anything else was going on - they still know better than anyone what is "good for Ayla")

4. Stereotyped views of out-groups – Negative views of “enemy” make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.
(Trista was the enemy, the police are the enemy, now the suspicious public is the enemy, while the family is above everyone else)

5. Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group’s views.
(Again, no one is talking out of some type of fear, and maybe they are sworn to secrecy)

6. Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed.
(Phoebe DiP stuck with her "at home" story even on National TV - couldn't break with the group)

7. Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.
(This is the weak point - who will make a deal and break the vow of silence? Who is worried about custody of their own children? But Justin the leader probably still believes everyone is on board with the lies.)

8. Self-appointed ‘mindguards’ – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group’s cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.
(This blogger friend of Justin's appointed herself spokesperson and writes that everything is fine, everyone in the family is on the same page, and nothing is wrong except that Ayla is gone and the public is too suspicious. She attacks any different theory as vicious, and thinks everyone should just accept that Ayla is living somewhere else where she is just fine, fine, fine. She's like the spokesperson for denial. )

Good one. I'm familiar with Janis. I'm also familiar with many criticisms of Janis. One being that the relationship between groupthink-induced decision defects and outcomes were not as strong as Janis suggests, and that group think almost exclusively deals with only the first part of decision making, while decision making is a multi staged process. Janis doesn't give credit to, or at least underestimates, the fragmentation that can occur and often does over long term problems solving. Also there is empirical evidence (please don't ask me to cite because I'll never remember where I read this) that supports the idea that opposing pressure from an outsider(s), in long term problem solving, the group isn't just fragmented but is easily fragmented. PARTICULARLY when motivated by personal gain, in this case being not being imprisoned. The proverbial dangling carrot can bring down the house of cards. Now, all that being said, sure, it's just as likely as any other logical theory that would explain how "it" happened and the motives behind all the actions of each player after the fact.
Just ideas, thoughts, ya know. I do think, in this case, we'll know some of the answers eventually, either due to fragmentation of the groupthink dynamic or something else.
Thanks for all the information, I love this sort of conversation/brainstorm.
 
I realy hope it's not that complicated. Finding Alya would be delayed possibly. The sister part and drugs. jmo

I agree. . .and I'm usually such an Occam's Razor type. BUT it's just such shades of Julia Biryukova. . .she did a lot of putting off in order to not have to produce Sky. I just can't help feeling suspicious about why JD did not let TR talk to Ayla. It's hinky to me. . .and it's makes the situation a lot more complicated too. Ugh!
 
I realy hope it's not that complicated. Finding Alya would be delayed possibly. The sister part and drugs. jmo

Finding Ayla will likely be impossible unless someone confesses, no matter how complicated the scenario, IMO...
 
Well I haven't posted too much about this certain case because I just don't like hearing about babies :( I was watching Nancy Grace tonight (because my families pic was on the family album) and this isn't good....at 1st i really thought the mom had something to do with the disappearnce but now I think different...I actually think the little baby hasn't been seen since Dec 8th or around then.....just stating my opion!!!
 
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