Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[SMK]

Well then how do you explain Mr. Markoff, who was an excellent medical student, accused of killing a girl in a hotel room? Just because someone excels academically doesn't make them incapable of a crime.

True. These stereotypes do not always hold. I guess if the evidence were strong and not so disputed, and it the theory were better, and if so many things had not been shot full of holes, I would believe Knox and Sollecito had murdered and were where they are supposed to be. As things stand, I don't.

 

[Nova]

RBBM
Really? How do we know this? Do we take this person's word for it?? WHERE IS THE PHOTO showing that, then? I can't imagine that in all of Italy, there isn't one interested and appropriate person who can demonstrate how to get into that window and DOCUMENT the ENTIRE process on film....

If it was done and Allusonz believes it was, I'm sure it was filmed.

I believe I stated in my earlier post that IMO the appropriate response would be, "I don't know because as I said the last time I used it on Nov. 1, when I turned it off, it was fine."

Yes, of course. But let's imagine hours of such questioning and the possibility that AK wasn't a true-crime aficionado and didn't know how to handle that approach.

Hmm...being a "good girl" takes precedence over telling the truth and maybe saving your booty...

Well, when you're repeatedly called a liar for telling the truth, it might occur to you that telling the truth is not considered the appropriate response. And the whole point of coerced statements is that it comes to seem as if you must agree with your interrogators in order "save your booty."

I've been questioned by police. In an incredibly serious matter and manner, and I was not being questioned as just a witness, if you get my drift. It didn't occur to me to be anything but truthful. I certainly didn't just repeat what they just said to me even if I knew it wasn't true, or try to insinuate things, as may have been the case with AK's answer. Again, yes, she is not me, I am not her (thank goodness), but I'm hesitant to chalk it up to simply trying to be a "good girl."

Were you questioned in Italian? Had you roommate been murdered?

 

[Nova]

Well, and if it was indeed three against one, then she wouldn't have had much of a chance.
I'm a bit disturbed at the statement that "maybe she laid down and just let someone..."

There's a middle ground between going all whoop-a$$ on someone and just lying there and taking it... :sigh:

I thought it was already established that MK had defensive wounds, so I'm not sure why this is still an issue. (Not blaming you, flourish.) It's clear she did what she could to defend herself, which may not have been much if she was surprised by a large, athletic man with a knife (or by three assailants, but there really isn't any evidence that that happened except in Mignini's imagination).

But there are plenty of other cases where victims have become absolutely passive in the face of lethal weapons. In some cases, it saved their lives.

 

[Nova]

...but I don't think the reports are greatly inflated.All I need to do is read her own words,the e-mail she wrote to her friends and family to find proof of this.
That's why I'm conflicted,because when I think about RG I feel fear and disgust but also a level of understanding and it just blows my mind that I could have more sympathy for this then someone like AK.I think empathy for a murdered friend should not require any training.

To me, judging AK's supposed callousness from media reports and TV coverage is like diagnosing her alleged autism from afar. The likelihood of confusing the medium and the message is great.

Lots of people (including myself and my entire family) aren't comfortable expressing grief in public. So what? We can find any number of examples of AK expressing regret over MK's death, so I assume you are responding to an overall impression; and I don't think using emails, transcripts and tabloid articles to do that is very reliable.

Some experts have argued that the U.S. as an entire country keeps death at arm's length (nowadays as opposed to when most people died at home), that none of us acts appropriately in the face of death because we have so little experience with it.

(ETA that AK can't catch a break on the "empathy" issue. When she's confronted with knives and shudders, breaks into tears, etc., it's at least as reasonable to believe she's thinking of her dead friend and how she must have suffered. But, no, that's presented as evidence of AK's "guilty conscience." I think everyone needs to recognize the concerted media campaign that was waged against a 20-year-old from the first days after the murder. I seriously doubt any of us could have done better at that age.)

 

[Nova]

LG: I see. Do you remember when you called Filomena, more or less, on that
morning?

AK: I called Filomena when Raffaele advised me to call someone.

LG: And what did Filomena say?

AK: Filomena was worried. She asked me if I had called Meredith, and I said
I had already called but she wasn't answering. I told her what I had seen,
and she said "OK, when you've finished, go to the house and check everything
that happened and call me back."

LG: And the carabinieri? Did Filomena say anything about calling the
carabinieri or the police?

AK: I don't know how to call the carabinieri or the police, but she only told
me to go see how things were.

LG: Did you try to climb over the balcony?

AK: Yes. When I saw that Meredith's door was locked, and that if she was in
there, she wasn't answering, I really wanted to find out whether she was in
there or not. I was confused about this, because why should her door be locked
if she wasn't inside? So first I tried -- the way the house is situated,
she had a window near that little balcony, so I first tried to climb over
the balcony to see if I could see inside. But I couldn't, and [laughing]
Raffaele was saying "No, get back here!" and pulling me back onto the balcony.
So then he tried to knock the door down.

LG: Yes, and I know that you had tried to open the door together, hadn't you?

AK: Yes. Raffaele tried giving it a kick, and also pushing it with his shoulder
to open it, because we didn't know why that door should be locked.

LG: And you also tried calling out Meredith's name?

AK: Of course, and I also tried looking in the keyhole.

BBM: AK contradicts herself here. Elsewhere she says MK used to lock her door when she went back to England for visits and that when she (AK) found the locked door, her first thought was that maybe MK went home for the holiday. But by the time she returned to the cottage, I'm sure Filomena had told her that MK did NOT go to England for the weekend, so that idea is no longer in AK's head.

THIS IS VERY MUCH THE SORT OF CONTRADICTION THAT ORDINARY PEOPLE MAKE WHEN THEY ARE TELLING THE "TRUTH". It's not really a contradiction if one notes that AK had a slightly different frame of reference in the early morning v. the later morning.

 

[Nova]

Originally Posted by wasnt_me
From her testimony, AK seems unaware of friction in the cottage:

And maybe it was not all that big of a deal. This is what troubles me. Why did her flatmates bring this to light in the face of a murder investigation? Can you imagine having conflict with college room mates, and it being brought in at a time like this???

I'm sure ILE was pushing them to think of any examples of friction between MK and AK. If you are asked often enough and think about it long enough, the everyday tensions of cohabitation can begin to seem very significant.

Just the fact that police are asking about something can make the trivial seem unduly important.

Let's keep in mind that it would be very surprising if ILE were NOT hinting to the English girls that AK was involved in the murder. ILE wouldn't have to spell it out, just hint at "discrepancies" and things not being "right."

 

[Nova]

Why? They saw how AK behaved first hand, they heard the lies, they saw the fake break-in. AK was the only roommate in town with a key. What do you know about the frictions between MK and AK? How can you say those were normal? How can you say it was extreme if you weren't even there? I can understand the roommates were suspicious. The investigation only confirmed their worst fears. JMO.

We can say the frictions were normal because the ones that have been reported (disagreements about chores, the cleanliness of the bathroom, the intrusion of male guests) are all normal conflicts between new college-age roommates.

How are you making your decisions about the case if not from trial testimony and media reports?

 

[Nova]

Each time I come across this final piece of reasoning of motive from the Massei Report ( p. 367-8 ) - and it stunned me the first time I read it - I cannot see how preceding room mate friction, drugs, or any of the precedents could lead to this scenario:

Therefore it may be deduced that, accustomed to the consumption of drugs and the effects of the latter, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito participated actively in Rudy’s criminal acts aimed at overcoming Meredith’s resistance, subjugating her will and thus allowing Rudy to act out his lustful impulses; and this is considered to have happened because, for those [i.e. for people] who did not disdain the use of drugs (Amanda has stated that on that evening, before ‚making love‛, they had consumed drugs), watching films and reading comic books in which sexuality is accompanied by violence and by situations of fear, disregarding the concept of sexuality as an encounter of [two] persons moved by reciprocal and free emotion (see the comic books seized from Raffaele Sollecito and the statements on the viewing of films which had drawn the attention of the tutors of the ONAOSI College attended by Raffaele Sollecito), the prospect of helping Rudy in [his] goal of subduing Meredith in order to sexually abuse her may have seemed to be an exciting stimulant which, although unexpected, had to be tried.

Maybe it is me, but this seems absurd. Even if drugs were a factor, or preceding friction, why would this scenario come to be?

It wouldn't. I'm glad we know what Massei was thinking, but his leaps of logic are really troubling in a jurist. To take but one: if everyone who looks at anime committed murder, there wouldn't be enough of us left to arrest anyone.

 

[SMK]

Why? They saw how AK behaved first hand, they heard the lies, they saw the fake break-in. AK was the only roommate in town with a key. What do you know about the frictions between MK and AK? How can you say those were normal? How can you say it was extreme if you weren't even there? I can understand the roommates were suspicious. The investigation only confirmed their worst fears. JMO.

Right, It took Nova to make me see why this irritated. Of course I know about the friction: It was said to be over bathroom cleanliness, chores, and male guests----any one who had college roommates can recall these. And yeah, they are normal. I don't know why it takes Nova for me to find my voice. I imagine Amanda also has trouble finding her voice.

 

[Nova]

All kind of things can lead to murder. Look on another thread, a whole bunch of teenagers are accused of a brutal murder of a 15 year old over what appears to be your basic teenager squabbles. So for AK supporters to argue that it just couldn't be because there is no obvious motive -well that is just silly.
Because there isn't always an obvious motive.

Well, in the first place, the teens in the case you reference all spoke the same language.

In the second, there was an extended period of escalating conflict on Facebook.

In the third, there WAS a motive in the Orlando case: the girl and her new boyfriend felt she had been "dissed" by her previous boyfriend. So she, her boyfriend and their friends set out to deliver payback.

***

But back to Perugia, you still have a 20-year-old girl with no history of violence agreeing to participate in a rape and murder of her friend, and doing so in a few minutes with two boys who didn't speak her native language.

There's simply no comparison.

 

[Nova]

Well then how do you explain Mr. Markoff, who was an excellent medical student, accused of killing a girl in a hotel room? Just because someone excels academically doesn't make them incapable of a crime.

Although the numbers are less, I agree that educated people can commit crimes. And it's true that motive isn't always apparent, which is why prosecutors are (ETA not) required to prove motive.

But in a case like this, where the conspiracy is not only unlikely but logistically almost impossible, it's fair to ask WHY would these three join together to commit this particular crime? The answer, of course, is that they wouldn't, which is why the prosecution proposed every motive under the sun, hoping something would stick.

 

[sherlockh]

We can say the frictions were normal because the ones that have been reported (disagreements about chores, the cleanliness of the bathroom, the intrusion of male guests) are all normal conflicts between new college-age roommates.

How are you making your decisions about the case if not from trial testimony and media reports?

I didn't make any decisions on this part. The roommates and friends know much better the exact details about the frictions than me. Besides I believe the point was that the roommates did something bad by mentioning the friction? They are called to testify and shouldn't tell the truth about the accused? Whatever.

 

[miley]

I'm sure ILE was pushing them to think of any examples of friction between MK and AK. If you are asked often enough and think about it long enough, the everyday tensions of cohabitation can begin to seem very significant.

Just the fact that police are asking about something can make the trivial seem unduly important.

Let's keep in mind that it would be very surprising if ILE were NOT hinting to the English girls that AK was involved in the murder. ILE wouldn't have to spell it out, just hint at "discrepancies" and things not being "right."

Similar to the way amanda reacted or handled the line of questioning regarding PL.
It seems like they were all trying to appease LE or be "good girls" like you were saying - I never really thought of it like that.

 

[SMK]

Similar to the way amanda reacted or handled the line of questioning regarding PL.
It seems like they were all trying to appease LE or be "good girls" like you were saying - I never really thought of it like that.

Yes, this makes an interesting point regarding these scholarly young women in the face of authority figures, including Amanda.

 

[SMK]

I didn't make any decisions on this part. The roommates and friends know much better the exact details about the frictions than me. Besides I believe the point was that the roommates did something bad by mentioning the friction? They are called to testify and shouldn't tell the truth about the accused? Whatever.

No, the point was not that they did something bad, the point was that who was I to say these conflicts were normal? But of course they were, as described by Filomina and Laura.

 

[flourish]

If it was done and Allusonz believes it was, I'm sure it was filmed.

Sweet, where's the film? Or some other still shots? If they exist...I just have a hard time believing that only that ONE photos is available/leaked/viral, etc....??

Yes, of course. But let's imagine hours of such questioning and the possibility that AK wasn't a true-crime aficionado and didn't know how to handle that approach.



Well, when you're repeatedly called a liar for telling the truth, it might occur to you that telling the truth is not considered the appropriate response. And the whole point of coerced statements is that it comes to seem as if you must agree with your interrogators in order "save your booty."



Were you questioned in Italian? Had you roommate been murdered?

*Sigh* It's my own fault for opening this :worms:I thought I made it clear that my sharing that was a "FWIW" and not meant to be a direct comparison between myself and AK.

So FWIW, I was 21, everyone was speaking United States English, I was not a "true-crime aficionado," and no, it wasn't my roommate who had been murdered--it was my child.

 

[OldSteve]

None of us really know what her reaction was, considering we don't know what had happened.
At best we can speculate.
Was there any evidence that she was actually fighting? I have not heard about any DNA found under her fingernails.

On the ID In Cold Bold 4/20/11 show, it was mentioned MK did have defense wounds on her..

 

[OldSteve]

Originally Posted by wasnt_me
From her testimony, AK seems unaware of friction in the cottage:

And maybe it was not all that big of a deal. This is what troubles me. Why did her flatmates bring this to light in the face of a murder investigation? Can you imagine having conflict with college room mates, and it being brought in at a time like this???

From what I gleaned watching the ID In Cold Blood show - her flatmates did not like her... she not popular with them... they tolerated her.... meanwhile, AK was a bit naive about to how a click can act against you...

 

[SMK]

From what I gleaned watching the ID In Cold Blood show - her flatmates did not like her... she not popular with them... they tolerated her.... meanwhile, AK was a bit naive about to how a click can act against you...

Yes, in this case, it was unfortunate that she did not grasp this, and move out before the murder occurred (assuming she is innocent, as I do at this juncture). How was this shown on the ID ICB show?

 

[SMK]

*Sigh* It's my own fault for opening this :worms:I thought I made it clear that my sharing that was a "FWIW" and not meant to be a direct comparison between myself and AK.

So FWIW, I was 21, everyone was speaking United States English, I was not a "true-crime aficionado," and no, it wasn't my roommate who had been murdered--it was my child.

OMG, your child???? I am so, so sorry to hear this, how awful??