Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[SMK]

Of course you are entitled to applaud and use smilies as you like. I'm not responding to that part of your post.



This reminds me of that sliver of space between "beyond reasonable doubt" and "beyond all conceivable doubt." Of course, a 20-year-old girl being involved in this crime is not beyond the realm of all possibility.

But her age and gender are only part of the equation. Other parts include the facts that:

1. She has no history suggesting a propensity for this type of crime. A few practical jokes do not a crazed sex killer make. (Even Mignini seems to recognized this, as he gets vaguer and vaguer when trying to explain how the "prank" got "out of control.") AK has no history of violence, gang affiliation or even long-running feuds with other girls.

2. She barely knew one of her alleged conspirators (RG), having met him briefly once and seen him around town a couple of times.

3. She'd only known the other alleged conspirator (RS) for about a week. This is where the comparison to Karla Homolka falls apart. Moreover, in the cases of thrill-killing couples I can think of, the male always takes the dominant role, at least in terms of public performance. The AK/RS bond is supposed to be the opposite. Possible? Perhaps. Likely? Of course not.

4. She and her alleged conspirators didn't share fluency in any language.

5. She and RS had little if any time to form the conspiracy with RG.

6. AK managed to do a "magical" clean up in which she removes almost all traces of herself and RS from the crime scene (and all traces from RS' apartment except the magically discovered knife), yet leaves large amounts of RG's DNA.

7. The attempts to show AK's "consciousness of guilt" are laughable. She did cartwheels? She got upset looking at knives after her friends was stabbed to death? Give me a break. The fact is she didn't run, she stayed and aided the investigation.

8. Perugia LE and court system have demonstrated their incompetence every step of the way.

And yet the Italian courts paint AK not just as a foolish bystander caught up in something she didn't expect, but as some sort of ringleader of the conspiracy. IIRC, RG's sentence was reduced in part because the court ruled he hadn't delivered the death blow. How the hell can the court possibly know that? It can't, of course. It's just as determined as ILE and English tabloids to paint AK as the fount of all that is evil.

I agree with all, and especially the last part which is bolded by me. How indeed can they say Guede deserves a short sentence, as he is not the one who slashed Kercher's throat? In fact, Hendry IMO has shown in his analysis that he did. Who can doubt that the killer is Guede, and Guede alone?

 

[wasnt_me]

Even in all RG's retellings, I guess he has two versions, only one person is attacking and killing MK--it's just not him.

So, though you can't really believe all the elements of his story, some parts of his story are supported by the evidence. he says he arrived around 830-845pm. MK's time of death is logically somewhere between her interrupted call to her mother at 8:56pm and 9:58pm when the phone attempts to call voicemail.

We have some kind of human based computer activity on RS's computer up till at least 926pm.

The judge says that MK is fiddling with her phone.

8:56pm fiddling with her phone to call her mom--something she was reported to have done nightly. Did not attempt to reconnect with her mom. however, weirdly enough, her mom didn't attempt to call her, according to the phone log.

9:58--fiddling on her phone AGAIN. This time to call voicemail and hang up on it a few seconds into the welcome recording.

10:00--Fiddling on her phone for a 3rd time. This time trying to incorrectly call her bank.

10:13 fiddling on her phone for a 4th time, doing a 9 second connection to the internet in a geographical location that appears to no longer be at the cottage. Pings off cell tower 30064, which could be at the cottage or could be enroute to the cell phone drop site.

After that, I guess MK said screw it, and didn't bother to "fiddle" with her phone anymore.

I'd even accept phone "fiddling" if the phones had been found at the cottage, but the fact that the assailant took the phones and dumped them makes me highly doubt that MK was the one doing the "fiddling" on all 4 fiddles.

 

[SMK]

Even in all RG's retellings, I guess he has two versions, only one person is attacking and killing MK--it's just not him.

So, though you can't really believe all the elements of his story, some parts of his story are supported by the evidence. he says he arrived around 830-845pm. MK's time of death is logically somewhere between her interrupted call to her mother at 8:56pm and 9:58pm when the phone attempts to call voicemail.

We have some kind of human based computer activity on RS's computer up till at least 926pm.

The judge says that MK is fiddling with her phone.

8:56pm fiddling with her phone to call her mom--something she was reported to have done nightly. Did not attempt to reconnect with her mom. however, weirdly enough, her mom didn't attempt to call her, according to the phone log.

9:58--fiddling on her phone AGAIN. This time to call voicemail and hang up on it a few seconds into the welcome recording.

10:00--Fiddling on her phone for a 3rd time. This time trying to incorrectly call her bank.

10:13 fiddling on her phone for a 4th time, doing a 9 second connection to the internet in a geographical location that appears to no longer be at the cottage. Pings off cell tower 30064, which could be at the cottage or could be enroute to the cell phone drop site.

After that, I guess MK said screw it, and didn't bother to "fiddle" with her phone anymore.

I'd even accept phone "fiddling" if the phones had been found at the cottage, but the fact that the assailant took the phones and dumped them makes me highly doubt that MK was the one doing the "fiddling" on all 4 fiddles.

Right, I believe Meredith was dead, as Hendry says, early on - he places TOD @ 9:30 PM - and Guede was fiddling with the phone, trying to see if he could get $$, turn it off.

 

[wasnt_me]

Here is that story about RG trying to pay someone to let him have their car outside the cottage.

I believe this witness has been discredited, because he had orginially said he'd had the AK and RS incident the day before. Also, we have two other witnesses who put RG outside that cottage at 10pm. This is why also why I think the murder has transpired already by 10pm.

2200 - 2230 Meredith is either dead or dying. A breakdown truck arrives for a broken down car containing a family of three, man, woman and child. The Albanian 'superwitness', Hekuran Kokomani, arrives by car at the rubbish bins area a short way down the road from the cottage. HK punches RS, throws a phone and olives at AK, who threatens HK with knife. HK drives further down the road encountering RG who recognises HK and offers money to hire HK's car, first 50, then offering 250 euros. HK hears banging sounding like 'wood on wood' from the house. RG says there is a birthday party at the cottage. HK refuses hire his car, driving off having seen RS in his wing mirror running at him with knife. RS persues him to the lights, where a motorist asks HK for directions. HK has to reverse his car to allow the breakdown truck, which is probably just arriving, to manoeuvre. HK leaves (per HK)

2200 - 2230 “Alessandra Formica, said her partner was almost knocked over by a black man running away from scene”. The couple also witness the broken down car and breakdown truck. This now matches testimony by Kokomani, both in time and event. The breakdown truck was information that had been withheld from the public by police, so both had to have been there

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2

I got this info off their timelines, but their timelines contain some information that has been discredited since the timeline was produced.

 

[wasnt_me]

Right, I believe Meredith was dead, as Hendry says, early on - he places TOD @ 9:30 PM - and Guede was fiddling with the phone, trying to see if he could get $$, turn it off.

Right. Because as I recall, I read somewhere that the bank call was to find out her balance.

2213 SMS requesting account balance sent from MK's mobile to her bank

From a different timeline on PMF.

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2

HOWEVER, I don't know how they can know it was a balance request when the call couldn't connect, via having no area code before the actual number. Even so, I do believe that Rudy, who had her bank cards, was trying to call that number, probably got it off the back of her card, to see if she had any money in that account, so he could use it to buy stuff with that night or the next day. That's why stores really ought to be checking who's using your card. I swipe myself, press credit, sign, and they never look at my ID to see if I'm using my own card.

However, I'd think he'd want to check the balance, so he wouldn't raise suspicion in the store if he charged too much on it. Know what I mean? cause then, he's standing there with a bunch of merchandise, no other money and someone else's card. The store clerk might ask to see the card to help with the "swiping" and then discover that he is not MK.

see what I'm saying?

 

[SMK]

Here is that story about RG trying to pay someone to let him have their car outside the cottage.

I believe this witness has been discredited, because he had orginially said he'd had the AK and RS incident the day before. Also, we have two other witnesses who put RG outside that cottage at 10pm. This is why also why I think the murder has transpired already by 10pm.

2200 - 2230 Meredith is either dead or dying. A breakdown truck arrives for a broken down car containing a family of three, man, woman and child. The Albanian 'superwitness', Hekuran Kokomani, arrives by car at the rubbish bins area a short way down the road from the cottage. HK punches RS, throws a phone and olives at AK, who threatens HK with knife. HK drives further down the road encountering RG who recognises HK and offers money to hire HK's car, first 50, then offering 250 euros. HK hears banging sounding like 'wood on wood' from the house. RG says there is a birthday party at the cottage. HK refuses hire his car, driving off having seen RS in his wing mirror running at him with knife. RS persues him to the lights, where a motorist asks HK for directions. HK has to reverse his car to allow the breakdown truck, which is probably just arriving, to manoeuvre. HK leaves (per HK)

2200 - 2230 “Alessandra Formica, said her partner was almost knocked over by a black man running away from scene”. The couple also witness the broken down car and breakdown truck. This now matches testimony by Kokomani, both in time and event. The breakdown truck was information that had been withheld from the public by police, so both had to have been there

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2

I got this info off their timelines, but their timelines contain some information that has been discredited since the timeline was produced.

Yes, not only was Kokomani discredited, but now it seems the black man was NOT Mr. Guede: http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/new-scenario-for-murder-of-meredith.html

 

[wasnt_me]

Hekuran's story is ridiculous, but i wonder how he knew about the tow truck. He had to have been there. But it makes no sense because when he first came out with the story, he said he saw AK and RS by the trashcans on Oct. 31 and there was no mention of RG AT ALL.

Makes me wonder about him, since the text claims that RG recognized him and asked to borrow his car. When he wouldn't do it RG chases HIS car down while carrying a knife? Just wonder if he'd been waiting for RG outside the house and then maybe saw the blood on his clothes and changed his mind about helping RG with anything.

Just totally guessing. But I'm trying to figure out how this HK guy really fits in.

 

[SMK]

Hekuran's story is ridiculous, but i wonder how he knew about the tow truck. He had to have been there. But it makes no sense because when he first came out with the story, he said he saw AK and RS by the trashcans on Oct. 31 and there was no mention of RG AT ALL.

Makes me wonder about him, since the text claims that RG recognized him and asked to borrow his car. When he wouldn't do it RG chases HIS car down while carrying a knife? Just wonder if he'd been waiting for RG outside the house and then maybe saw the blood on his clothes and changed his mind about helping RG with anything.

Just totally guessing. But I'm trying to figure out how this HK guy really fits in.

Yes, on TJFMK forum, they still believe Koko----but as you say, his story is too inconsistent and full of holes....maybe a grain of truth, as you say....but why not just say it, simply? why did he embellish and make it in the end unbelievable?

 

[wasnt_me]

I read that article you put in, and I wonder how this witness knows beyond any doubt that it was NOT RG running?

Well, I wonder, too, if they asked her if his pants were wet or if he had blood on him. Which is another reason not be believe HK. I can't imagine RG as the killer, running up the street with blood on him and a knife in hand, and HK is the ONLY person who saw this. Likewise with what he said about AK and RS.

So in the course of 10 minutes, HK is separately threatened by all 3 murder suspects up on the main road, where a broken down car with a family inside sees nothing. a couple sees the broken down car and a man running but doesn't see HK getting chased by a bloody knife-wielding man or being chased by a knife-wielding AK?

Oh, and then, I guess RG gets tired and stops chasing HK, but HK then feels calm enough to give a motorist directions somewhere.

Kind of makes me wonder if instead of asking him what else he saw, ILE asked him, "did you see the broken down car or the tow truck?"

To which he answers, "Of course," and then incorporates it into his story.

 

[SMK]

I read that article you put in, and I wonder how this witness knows beyond any doubt that it was NOT RG running?

Well, I wonder, too, if they asked her if his pants were wet or if he had blood on him. Which is another reason not be believe HK. I can't imagine RG as the killer, running up the street with blood on him and a knife in hand, and HK is the ONLY person who saw this. Likewise with what he said about AK and RS.

So in the course of 10 minutes, HK is separately threatened by all 3 murder suspects up on the main road, where a broken down car with a family inside sees nothing. a couple sees the broken down car and a man running but doesn't see HK getting chased by a bloody knife-wielding man or being chased by a knife-wielding AK?

and did HK phone the police and report this at the time? The whole thing is dubious---I do wonder how Guede escaped with the blood on him...

 

[wasnt_me]

Right! I added more to the post while you were posting. More stuff that was EVEN MORE ridiculous about HK's story.

I'm not gonna even mention throwing cell phones and olives. Where the hell did olives even come from?

 

[SMK]

Right! I added more to the post while you were posting. More stuff that was EVEN MORE ridiculous about HK's story.

I'm not gonna even mention throwing cell phones and olives. Where the hell did olives even come from?

Yes, he supposedly threw olives in Amanda's face---the whole thing was absurd.

 

[wasnt_me]

ANd if he punched RS, he didn't have any evidence of that on his face or it would have been noted, surely, because FR and all her friends and the postal police saw him the next day.

 

[SMK]

PERUGIA, Italy — An Albanian man told an Italian trial court in sometimes confusing testimony Saturday that an American student charged with the murder of her British roommate had brandished a knife outside their apartment house.
The presiding judge often interrupted Hekuran Kokomani asking him to speak up and be clearer, as the witness recalled seeing U.S. student Amanda Knox, her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and a suspect from the Ivory Coast in front of the apartment house in the university town of Perugia where the victim was killed.
Kokomani, described by prosecutors as a key witness, could not specify if he saw the three together the night in November 2007 when British student Meredith Kercher was stabbed to death in her bedroom.
Occasionally speaking in Albanian through a translator, and often mumbling, Kokomani said he was driving and then stopped in front of the building where he "bumped into a big black trash bag."
The "bag" turned out to be Knox and Sollecito, Kokomani said, identifying the suspects in court. He then said he punched Sollecito, while Knox threatened him with a knife.
'I'll show you'
"This girl pulled out a 16-inch knife from a green bag and brandished it, saying, 'Come here and I'll show you,'" Kokomani said, gesturing with his hands. He said Knox was holding the knife above her head with both hands, but was not pointing it at him.

Kokomani said Sollecito tried to reassure him, saying "she's a girl, she's not doing anything."




The man testified with police officers standing behind him. He was arrested last month on drug charges.
At one point Kokomani testified that he "threw olives and a cell phone" at Knox after she showed him the knife and then maneuvered to drive away when he saw Rudy Hermann Guede.
Guede told Kokomani that the knife had been used to cut a cake during a party in the young women's apartment, according to the Albanian.
Lawyers for Knox and Sollecito read statements Kokomani gave police during questioning that appeared inconsistent with his version in court.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29928796/ns/world_news-europe/

 

[wasnt_me]

I can't believe that let these fools testify. 16 inch knife? really? above her head with both hands, really? and you are the ONLY person who saw that?

 

[Allusonz]

Well, it's different to go without food and water when one is asleep; one's metabolism functions differently. When one is awake for the same period, the body is more apt to respond with hunger and thirst.

But in general I agree that a lack of food and water weren't the primary factors in the coercion. By AK's own account, she was more upset by the yelling.

Although I agree with you in this case re the food and water, imagine if she was a diabetic or as in my case a borderline hypoglycemic. You can tell very quickly if your sugars drop but I as well must bring them up quickly as well and an interrogation of that length I would of had to of had something within about 2 or 3 hours.

Thus I must admit that I do become upset with people that state why would she need food and water she just ate

 

[Allusonz]

Sounds right to me.

I've never known whether AK was actually struck, or just touched and it felt like a blow in that context. To me, she is telling us how it felt at the time and that is the point. Whether ILE committed what we usually call "police brutality," I don't know. AK doesn't claim she was injured, just intimidated.

I have a feeling, and this is just MOO that she was instructed by her lawyers to downplay this as well as not identify the individual. It though is not difficult to determine whom had long brown hair rofl

 

[wasnt_me]

Just watched a 48 hours case where a man spent 18 years in jail, on death row, because the real killer stated that he was the accomplice. A lot of corruption in the case, and before being executed, the real killer confessed that he'd lied on the guy. So the guy is finally free. Same bogus info happened with the confession and with the murder weapon as has happened with knox. Shame, really, that this happens to innocent people all the time. They also said the killer couldn't have acted alone in the TX trial. apparently he did, and says he named the innocent guy because he happened to see him on the corner as he was being arrested.

There wasn't a false confession in this case I'm talking about, but the lengths the prosecutor went to in order to ensure his convictions was diabolical.

Anyway, he's free now, but his life ruined.

 

[SMK]

Just watched a 48 hours case where a man spent 18 years in jail, on death row, because the real killer stated that he was the accomplice. A lot of corruption in the case, and before being executed, the real killer confessed that he'd lied on the guy. So the guy is finally free. Same bogus info happened with the confession and with the murder weapon as has happened with knox. Shame, really, that this happens to innocent people all the time. They also said the killer couldn't have acted alone in the TX trial. apparently he did, and says he named the innocent guy because he happened to see him on the corner as he was being arrested.

There wasn't a false confession in this case I'm talking about, but the lengths the prosecutor went to in order to ensure his convictions was diabolical.

Anyway, he's free now, but his life ruined.

This is what gets me angry. It may be idealistic, but to me, both prosecution and defense should be interested in objective justice and truth, and not just spinning things for their own side.

 

[SMK]

I read this article about the Idaho Innocence Project becoming involved with Knox case, but have no idea what influence they could possibly have:

http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/amanda-knox-case-being-examined-by-idaho-innocence-project-video#ixzz1KXGaDw2E