Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #11

[Allusonz]

More information regarding Frank

A couple of things i found to be extremely interesting. First that they were given a tip, as well they did there own investigation. How I would love to read what that has to say :giggle:

Nina Ognianova, from the Committee, told Crimesider that their investigation into all of this began in February when they got an e-mail tip. The Committee did its own independent investigation in Italy.

Amazing that they did not get charged with something or arrested :floorlaugh:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...tml?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

 

[flourish]

Cheers, folks
:toastred:

 

[Allusonz]

Thanks!

Sniped from what he says:
"What took place bore more resemblance to the Inquisition than to an interrogation." !!!

For 8 hours! OMG! Overnight. Without food or water. In a police station. In a foreign country. In a foreign language. By a dozen different officers. Without being allowed a lawyer.

Add to that the number of hours she had already been questioned by them

 

[Allusonz]

Yeah, even so, I want a breakdown because I'm sure Otto got something significant out of the 145am thing. So if they started at 1030pm, which I think they probably started more like 1045pm, and went to 145am, that was 3 hours, but what is it that happened at 145am? Otto said it was some sort of statement, but didn't give great detail of what it was about, just that it was the implication of patrick. From this link we read, seems she didn't give that up until 6am. So I'm confused about that.

Otto must know his stuff, so I can't believe he's completely incorrect. There is just a confusion to sort out.

IIRC there is not much different between the 1:45 and 5:45 statements. I could be wrong so will have to look over the 1:45 statement again. I had thought though that it was more at that point in time that she had named Patrick and her status was supposedly changed from that of witness to suspect thus they called in Mignini

I don't believe for a minute that the interrogation stopped at any point. The statements were typed in Italian and since we dont have any video/audio we can only go on testimony etc of which we know

I as well believe that this planned and from links that i have posted earlier as well as Malkmus they did consider her to be suspect prior to this. I as well believe that although they called RS in first that whether she had gone with RS or not she was going to be called in. Why else would you have 12 detectives waiting? I also believe that they had to get her to state something prior to the arrival of her mother on the 6th

 

[Allusonz]

and yet..........Knox and Sollecito have been imprisoned for 3 1/2 years......forums exist where attorneys and experts speak of how confident they are that the appeal will fail, and that the convictions will be upheld. It is a nightmare beyond nightmare....I can only pray that Providence will send some intervention, and that the 2 will be freed, and their families will sue for millions.........

I have very mixed thoughts on this as I truly do not believe the evidence supports the verdict and I feel that this was truly tried in the Court of Public Opinion of which there was a tremendous amount of misinformation reported. That being said it is the Italian justice system thus I am concerned.

As with any appeal, the defense lists what it perceives to be injustices against them. They must present backup to support those claims and in this case Judge Hellmann would of reviewed it prior to the first court date. No one knows what his thinking is on this but there have been a few clues.

He has been known to be a bit of a maverick. He has overturned a 2000 murder conviction.

I read closely what he said such as "conviction could only be secured against an accused if it was beyond all resonable doubt". He did state that the only thing that can be certain is that a murder happened.

Many have stated that Guede will testify against AK and RS but this judge reserved bringing in the 2 new witnesses.

I am concerned that Guede's sentence was reduced to 16 years (some say in return for testimony against AK and RS) but he is also known to of had many accounts with respect to this murder and if I was a betting person the one thing that might not look well for him is the fact that he had 2 previous opportunities to testify against them and did not. His credibility at this point is worthless

The other part to this is if the expert analysts find as many problems with the DNA testing as I suspect they will, I believe there is a strong chance that Guede could question the handling of the DNA used against him.

I am a firm believer in Karma and can only hope that this judge does what should of been done along time ago. Unfortunately, I can't read his mind nor do I know what his thoughts are after he reviewed the Motivational Report

At the end of the day those that believe in their guilt will continue to do so and those in their innocence/not proven beyond a reasonable doubt will continute to do so.

If this does not end at this stage, I truly will be interested at the international reaction, as I expect it to be relentless. Yes I know some believe this to be an American/Italian issue but I do not believe the majority do see it this way.

Much of this is MOO and I will continue to watch closely the decisions this particular judge does indeed make

ETA You can guarantee that ILE, newspapers, blogs, forums and individuals have been documented that have been behind much of this. I suspect there will be alot of litigation resulting from this and those will hurt deeply. If they think they are safe hiding in a forum they will be sadly mistaken especially as I believe some can be proven to of been of very malicious intent

 

[Allusonz]

Cheers, folks
:toastred:

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

But but but we need enough for the gang!!! At the rate I am going I could probably drink those all my little self, quite certain that I would not remember the last one for sure :innocent:

It would truly be so totally cool to get this group together, sit at a little restaurant in Perugia....yes I know I am crazy thus you might have to make those rubber bottles of wine :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[sherlockh]

Thanks!

Sniped from what he says:
"What took place bore more resemblance to the Inquisition than to an interrogation." !!!

For 8 hours! OMG! Overnight. Without food or water. In a police station. In a foreign country. In a foreign language. By a dozen different officers. Without being allowed a lawyer.

I don't know but what is so strange about a night without food or water? She just had dinner anyway.

 

[sherlockh]

The number of hours is the total for that night, not the number of hours before she implicated PL. She made at least three statements over the course of that night of interrogation.

It is the first one that came more or less 2 hours after that latest round of questioning began. So otto is right about that, AFAIK.

The other number we hear is 40 hours. That's a total one of the defense attorneys came up with for the hours of interrogation between the discovery of the body and AK signing the PL statement.

Not 40 hours of interrogation but 40 hours of being present in the police station, sitting in the waiting room, doing home work, and being extremely bored until it is her turn to answer some questions.

 

[SMK]

I don't know but what is so strange about a night without food or water? She just had dinner anyway.

She said she left for the police station just as they were about to have dinner - the call interrupted them.

 

[SMK]

I have very mixed thoughts on this as I truly do not believe the evidence supports the verdict and I feel that this was truly tried in the Court of Public Opinion of which there was a tremendous amount of misinformation reported. That being said it is the Italian justice system thus I am concerned.

As with any appeal, the defense lists what it perceives to be injustices against them. They must present backup to support those claims and in this case Judge Hellmann would of reviewed it prior to the first court date. No one knows what his thinking is on this but there have been a few clues.

He has been known to be a bit of a maverick. He has overturned a 2000 murder conviction.

I read closely what he said such as "conviction could only be secured against an accused if it was beyond all resonable doubt". He did state that the only thing that can be certain is that a murder happened.

Many have stated that Guede will testify against AK and RS but this judge reserved bringing in the 2 new witnesses.

I am concerned that Guede's sentence was reduced to 16 years (some say in return for testimony against AK and RS) but he is also known to of had many accounts with respect to this murder and if I was a betting person the one thing that might not look well for him is the fact that he had 2 previous opportunities to testify against them and did not. His credibility at this point is worthless

The other part to this is if the expert analysts find as many problems with the DNA testing as I suspect they will, I believe there is a strong chance that Guede could question the handling of the DNA used against him.

I am a firm believer in Karma and can only hope that this judge does what should of been done along time ago. Unfortunately, I can't read his mind nor do I know what his thoughts are after he reviewed the Motivational Report

At the end of the day those that believe in their guilt will continue to do so and those in their innocence/not proven beyond a reasonable doubt will continute to do so.

If this does not end at this stage, I truly will be interested at the international reaction, as I expect it to be relentless. Yes I know some believe this to be an American/Italian issue but I do not believe the majority do see it this way.

Much of this is MOO and I will continue to watch closely the decisions this particular judge does indeed make

ETA You can guarantee that ILE, newspapers, blogs, forums and individuals have been documented that have been behind much of this. I suspect there will be alot of litigation resulting from this and those will hurt deeply. If they think they are safe hiding in a forum they will be sadly mistaken especially as I believe some can be proven to of been of very malicious intent

My fear is that if they could be convicted in the first place - on such flimsy evidence - then the convictions could be upheld on the same, and in time, AK and RS will be forgotten. I hope I am wrong, as I want just the opposite: For them to be vindicated, and sue for the ruination of their young lives.

 

[sherlockh]

She said she left for the police station just as they were about to have dinner - the call interrupted them.

Mmhh, about to have dinner or having dinner? It is not totally clear to me.

LG: All right, I've exhausted this topic. Now, I said we were just coming to the
evening when you were called in, or rather when Raffaele was called in to
the Questura on Nov 5. Where did you come from? Were you having dinner
somewhere? Do you remember?

AK: We were at the apartment of a friend of his, who lived near his house, and
we were having dinner with them, trying, I don't know, to feel a bit of
normality, when Raffaele was called by the police.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165

 

[sherlockh]

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165

Ok, so lets say they got interrupted during their evening meal. Off they go the police station. RS gets questioned around 10:30pm? And gets coerced in an hour or so. That is no surprise. He is the weaker species after all...lol... Too bad he forgot to mention this 'coercion' in court. In the mean time, AK is doing some homework because that is what you do if you are exhausted after 40 hours of questioning in the previous days. Oh, and cartwheels at 11pm. I almost forgot those Then somewhere after 11pm, AK is being asked some questions, and before they start checking her phone a police officer comes over and says that RS is no longer covering for her. The nightmare begins.

Interrogated and coerced by 10 police offers simultaneously until about 1:45am when she had already mentioned Patrick, 'the real killer'. Not so strange if you realize she had been without any food or water for the whole 2 to 2 1/2 hours. By then they had to stop questioning her since she had become a suspect. Although of course the real suspect had then become Patrick Lumumba. AK can finally go pee-pee and get her water...phew.

I am not totally sure if it was on her own request or if the police wanted to know more about the 'real murderer' (Patrick), but at 3:30am AK had some more explaining to do. This was in the presence of Mignini. This resulted in the 5:45am statement and was longer (5 pages?) than the 1:45am statement. In the 5:45am statement she added that she was very frightened of Patrick. For some reason she never seemed very frightened of RG or even angry.

CP: Why didn't you say this to the police in the statement of 1:45?

AK: Say what?

CP: That you were afraid of Patrick.

AK: Because they hadn't asked me yet.

Ok then, they hadn't asked her yet. Makes sense :innocent: Also, in the 5:45am statement her 'dream' becomes suddenly very clear when they ask her the last time she met Patrick.

CP: Listen, in the statement of Nov 6 at 5:45, you declared to the police that you met Patrick in the morning of Nov 5, in front of the Universita per Stranieri.

AK: Yes.

CP: My question is the following: was this also suggested to you by the pubblico ministero?

AK: They asked me when was the last time I had seen Patrick, so I told them it was on that morning.

CP: And this true circumstance served to strengthen the accusation against Patrick?

GCM: Excuse me, let's avoid analysis and simply ask about circumstances of fact.

Say what? They asked her a question and she actually just told them the truth? See how that works?

The police now knew AK was present during the murder, and the real killer was still out there. They had to act fast. Little did they know the real murderer was sitting right there in front of them, and had them all fooled. A scary thought.

P.S. I know I wrote it in a sarcastic kinda way, but it is not funny at all. An innocent mans life got destroyed by a very selfish girl whose only intention was to divert the attention from her to someone else. Even in the weeks after, she never even bothered to make it clear that Patrick was innocent. Not a single judge/juror ever believed a word of the 'coercion' fairy tale. Ask Patrick Lumumba and see how he feels about AK. AK was convicted for one year in jail for the accusation of an innocent man. Not a minor issue.

Peace out. Justice for Meredith Kercher. The real victim.

All JMO

 

[SMK]

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=165

Ok, so lets say they got interrupted during their evening meal. Off they go the police station. RS gets questioned around 10:30pm? And gets coerced in an hour or so. That is no surprise. He is the weaker species after all...lol... Too bad he forgot to mention this 'coercion' in court. In the mean time, AK is doing some homework because that is what you do if you are exhausted after 40 hours of questioning in the previous days. Oh, and cartwheels at 11pm. I almost forgot those Then somewhere after 11pm, AK is being asked some questions, and before they start checking her phone a police officer comes over and says that RS is no longer covering for her. The nightmare begins.

Interrogated and coerced by 10 police offers simultaneously until about 1:45am when she had already mentioned Patrick, 'the real killer'. Not so strange if you realize she had been without any food or water for the whole 2 to 2 1/2 hours. By then they had to stop questioning her since she had become a suspect. Although of course the real suspect had then become Patrick Lumumba. AK can finally go pee-pee and get her water...phew.

I am not totally sure if it was on her own request or if the police wanted to know more about the 'real murderer' (Patrick), but at 3:30am AK had some more explaining to do. This was in the presence of Mignini. This resulted in the 5:45am statement and was longer (5 pages?) than the 1:45am statement. In the 5:45am statement she added that she was very frightened of Patrick. For some reason she never seemed very frightened of RG or even angry.



Ok then, they hadn't asked her yet. Makes sense :innocent: Also, in the 5:45am statement her 'dream' becomes suddenly very clear when they ask her the last time she met Patrick.



Say what? They asked her a question and she actually just told them the truth? See how that works?

The police now knew AK was present during the murder, and the real killer was still out there. They had to act fast. Little did they know the real murderer was sitting right there in front of them, and had them all fooled. A scary thought.

P.S. I know I wrote it in a sarcastic kinda way, but it is not funny at all. An innocent mans life got destroyed by a very selfish girl whose only intention was to divert the attention from her to someone else. Even in the weeks after, she never even bothered to make it clear that Patrick was innocent. Not a single judge/juror ever believed a word of the 'coercion' fairy tale. Ask Patrick Lumumba and see how he feels about AK. AK was convicted for one year in jail for the accusation of an innocent man. Not a minor issue.

Peace out. Justice for Meredith Kercher. The real victim.

All JMO

If AK and RS are innocent, then they are indeed also "real victims". And it is ILE's responsibility for suggesting Patrick, and then holding him when he had an airtight alibi.

ETA:I did read all you wrote, & I do understand your reasoning. I just believe PL's dilemma was born of the police reading too much into the text message, & harassing Amanda. I do not believe the evidence gives us reason to view her as the killer.

 

[SMK]

"The police now knew AK was present during the murder, and the real killer was still out there. They had to act fast. Little did they know the real murderer was sitting right there in front of them, and had them all fooled. A scary thought."(Sherlock) They had not counted on Guede yet. . .

ETA: which reminds me of your bringing up of the Paul Cortez case and innocence project:http://www.freepaulcortez.org/2008/06/guilty-unless-p.html

This is different because with the Cortez case, there is not another man whose DNA is in the victim's body and all over the place who admitted to being there, like Rudy Guede.

 

[Allusonz]

What happened in the interrogation rooms between 11 p.m. and 5:45 a.m. to make Amanda tell a crazy story about her boss, Patrick Lumumba, saying she met him at the basketball court the night of the killing? Claiming she went to the cottage where he may/may not have killed Meredith. Even then she says she is confused about the statement and, worse, her memory was impaired by the marijuana she’d smoked with Raffaele Sollecito, her boyfriend, the night of the murder.

Most crucially: The text Amanda sent to Patrick the night of the murder. Why did police paraphrase it so that it conveyed the exact opposite meaning? She showed it to officers during her interrogation. It was still on her cell. There was no reason not to simply set it down in black and white.

“Ci vediamo piu tardi. Buona serata (see you later, good night), Amanda texted to Patrick on the night Meredith Kercher died, after he texted her, saying she didn’t have to come to work.

Yet the officer paraphrased it on her 1:45 a.m. statement and turned it topsy-turvy.

Ho riposto al messaggio dicendogli che ci saremmo visti subito. I replied to his message saying I would see him immediately.

Now it looks like she’s going to meet him right away, just in time to kill Meredith


http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2009/03/

 

[Allusonz]

Such as: Who first brought up Patrick as a suspect? Amanda says the police. She says they pressured her. They hit her on the back of the head. The police say she fingered Patrick, when she showed them the SMS.

However, they said the opposite two years ago. Police Chief Arturo De Felice boasted to reporters that:

“The police found text messages on her phone from Lumumba, fixing a meeting between them at 8.35pm on the night Miss Kercher died.”

Here’s what Amanda said in her December interrogation:

The reason that I thought of Patrick was because the police were shouting at me about Patrick, continuing to speak of a message, that I had sent a message to Patrick. That was the worst experience of my life. I was never more confused than then.


Was she hit? The officers say no. She says yes

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2009/03/

 

[Allusonz]

So far the prosecution has tied the crime to: smiling, tears not shed in public, condoms, hashish, a toy vibrator, yoga, a hug that wasn’t huggy enough, pizza, kissing and, well, everything Amanda did after the crime.

Please, Mr. Prosecutor, could we please discuss the evidence?

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2009/03/

 

[jjenny]

AK sure wouldn't be the first person to either to falsely confess or to falsely implicate someone else. This has happened in US as well. I guess the moral of the story is to not talk to police without an attorney present.

 

[Allusonz]

Interrogated and coerced by 10 police offers simultaneously until about 1:45am when she had already mentioned Patrick, 'the real killer'. Not so strange if you realize she had been without any food or water for the whole 2 to 2 1/2 hours. By then they had to stop questioning her since she had become a suspect. Although of course the real suspect had then become Patrick Lumumba. AK can finally go pee-pee and get her water...phew.

Snipped for space

Take 2 aspirin and call your doctor in the morning :giggle:

 

[Allusonz]

AK sure wouldn't be the first person to either to falsely confess or to falsely implicate someone else. This has happened in US as well. I guess the moral of the story is to not talk to police without an attorney present.

so very true!!!