Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

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Right, "this splendid, marvelous girl" ----- whom he attempted to rape, from the DNA evidence. No way would Meredith want sex with him just because her beloved was gone for a few days. He has no standards, obviously. The more the rags go on, the more the old vile aura of 2008 comes back.:maddening:

Jailed Guede: Knox killed Meredith
By LAURA CAROE
Published: Today
KILLER Amanda Knox was left visibly shaken when a key witness said she murdered flatmate Meredith Kercher on a "cursed" night.
In a letter read at court, Rudy Guede, 24 — jailed 16 years for his part in the student's murder — said: "This splendid, marvellous girl was killed by Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox."


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...Guede-Knox-killed-Meredith.html#ixzz1QWJFx7c7
 
With respect, otto, if that was your point, it was not what you wrote. You wrote:



If anything, Italian appeals are more like re-trials than U.S. appeals.

U.S. appeals are rarely concerned with evidence per se, except to the extent that evidence was or wasn't properly introduced. U.S. appeals deal with judicial procedures and whether the correct ones were followed.

I don't view the Italian appeal as a retrial by any stretch of the imagination. The verdict from the trial is not vacated, but the judge does rule that one or more pieces of evidence will be reconsidered. The bulk of the evidence will not be reconsidered in this appeal and requests to have it reconsidered were denied at the start of th appeal. I'm curious whether the review of the DNA results will open the door for other new evidence to be considered.
 
She's a math teacher, so I'm assuming that school is out for the summer.

In the spirit of making Salem's job easier, I'm going to edit my post above to indicate that you have explained your choice of phrase.

Feel free to edit your quote as well.
 
Well, I wonder why he should be believed over Knox and Sollecito, when his DNA was found inside the victim. I would not believe anything he has to say. I knew he would be self-serving and thus ILE serving, but I thought the Defense has been waiting years to tear him apart on the stand? Maybe they just believe he is a lying fool. :waitasec:

It's a bit of a odd situation though. If he had said that Knox and Sollecito were not there, everyone would be praising him for speaking the truth that they wanted to hear. Because he spoke his truth, he is considered untruthful.

In any case, I think this was predictable. He needs to put the murder onto someone else and as long as he blames someone else, he looks a little less evil.
 
Not at all. Somebody played some music between 5 and 6 a.m., if ILE's computer techs are right. (Big "if.")

I don't see that that proves anything re when AK and RS went to bed or when they got out of bed.

I guess I'm viewing untruthful statements provided by the pair during a murder investigation as deliberate deception, and you are viewing those same statements with a more forgiving approach ... as misspeaks.
 
I have been lurking on these forums for a little over a month. After today's events, I had to break down and register. This saga is just infuriating to my sense of a logical and rational world of law. I know it does not exist, but every case like this further erodes my misplaced faith (hope?) in justice ultimately prevailing.

I started following this case around mid-November of 2007. I got all of my initial information from the British press. At first, I wondered why they thought she was involved, and I felt they were really playing up the "ugly American" angle for the UK audience. I wondered if she was really one of the perpetrators. My healthy skepticism of the tabloid coverage (I have visited the UK numerous times in the last decade and a half) was overwhelmed by the deluge of negative press for AK, and I started to think she was involved in the alleged orgy/murder. When I stopped paying attention PL was a main suspect, and RG was just being mentioned but not by name yet. I still thought AK might not be involved, because the coverage seemed so slanted to play up AK's guilt that I wondered if the overkill was overcompensation for lack of real evidence.

I brushed up on the case when AK and RS were convicted in 2009. I just read the Wikipedia entry. From reading that, it seemed like they were guilty due to the DNA evidence and the way it was written on Wikipedia at the time. Although, the case the prosecution presented was much different than the one that was printed in the press when I was reading about the case back in 2007.

Then I saw the Lifetime movie in February of this year, and thought there were many discrepancies in the film from the actual facts of the case. If I remember correctly, they portrayed MK as living in the apartment before AK, when AK moved in first in reality. A minor change, but the film seemed intent upon casting AK in a more unfavorable light than the facts would suggest. A much more significant change was that RS was portrayed as calling the police after the Postal Police had arrived which was very damning to RS and AK. I think the portrayal of AK was extremely unfortunate due to the fact that many people in the US will assume that the film is relatively accurate, and that she is the person the film presented.

After watching the film, I watched an on-demand Lifetime "documentary" of the case and Barbie Nadeau was one of if not the featured talking heads that discussed the case. She mentioned many facts I found pertinent in the case that would cast doubt on AK and RS's involvement. After listening to her, I got the sense she thought the state did not make its case, because I found it difficult to square the evidence she relayed with a guilty verdict. However, she stated towards the end she thought they were guilty. I found it very odd and became really intrigued with the case.

Which lead me into the Pandora's Box that this case is on the web. All of the ills of Western civilization are exposed by this case: cronyism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, and numerous others. Almost every single notable person that is involved in this case has skin in the game to promote their pro guilty or innocent book or website. I find it extremely maddening and disheartening. I just want to know who killed Meredith Kercher.

I started at the True Justice for Meredith Kercher site, but I found their pro-prosecution bias overwhelming if not downright nauseating. It is fine to support a verdict but to be so gleeful about it is unseemly. Then to compound their bad manners, they are boorishly disrespectful of anyone that is not enamored with the verdict or questions any element of the prosecution&#8217;s actions. Their cavalier <modsnip> responses do nothing in terms of attaining real and lasting justice for MK. If anything, they are attempting a fool&#8217;s errand to build a citadel on the faulty foundation of the first trial.

Then I went to the pro-AK sites and was almost equally disturbed. Many half-truths and character assassinations are presented to deflect potential holes in the defense of AK and RS. If you are interested in this side of the case, I have found Ron Hendry and Mark Waterbury to be the most credible. Bruce Fisher and Steve Moore seem as unhinged and unreliable as Peter Quennell and Will Savive do on the other side.

The crux of the problem seems to be that people have to present themselves as experts on this case, and if you do that you have profess that is overwhelmingly evident that AK is guilty as sin or as innocent as Mother Theresa (not good example for Christopher Hitchens fans). However, if you are an honest analyst, no sweeping judgment like that is really possible if you look at all the evidence, because you have to ignore too much information that does not fit tidily into those confining conclusions.

<modsnip>

But Amanda Knox&#8217;s story also has significant inconsistencies.

First, the reason given by Amanda Knox for which she would return to the house in Via della Pergola 7 on the morning of November 2 does not appear credible. She states that she went back home to change her clothes, take a shower and fetch the mop to dry the floor.

Since she knew she and Raffaele had made plans for a trip to Gubbio on November 2nd, she could well have brought the clothes with her that were going to be needed for the next day, and there were no circumstances shown that, occurring and unforeseen, may have given rise to such needs; on the evening of the same November 1st, she had already showered and washed her hair at Raffaele&#8217;s house, and therefore it is hardly credible there is a need to repeat both those actions, and it is not understandable why, in addition, she would have to repeat all this somewhere else and not where she already just had a shower and washed her hair, especially since for the scheduled trip it would have been advisable to save time. (p.85)

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

First of all, this reminds of the confusion over the colloquial farewell &#8220;see you later&#8221; which in the U.S. means goodbye and until we meet again (indefinite frame), not literally I will see you later that evening, night, etc. (definite time frame). I know in France and other parts of Europe it is customary for many if not the majority to bathe/shower less frequently than in the U.S. The judge finds it unbelievable that a woman would shower/bathe after having showered the day before. This guy does not know U.S. college girls. I know many that showered in the morning and showered again in the evening if they were going out that night. Really, he finds it inconceivable that a young woman that was about to meet her new boyfriend&#8217;s parents for the first time would want to shower after having smoked illegal drugs and had sex the night before? I find this to ludicrous reasoning. He also finds it hard to believe she would want to shower in her own apartment? I find it very much like the behavior that my girlfriends exhibited in college. I also remember in college not utilizing the most efficient time management when we had a holiday road trip. I mean she lost approximately 10 minutes showering in her apartment if they had been able to leave for their trip.
Reading this report, Massei comes across as having a template for how a good young woman should comport herself, and if AK fails in Massei&#8217;s ideal of a young woman her failure to live up to Massei&#8217;s unrealistic representation is portrayed as nefarious.

This really comes across in how he tries to pigeonhole AK&#8217;s relationship with RG as a friendship when I would describe it as a tenuous acquaintance at best.

It has already been stated that Rudy Guede was acquainted with the inhabitants of via della Pergola, and that he had a good relationship of friendship and fun with them (with all of the boys from downstairs; with Amanda, in whom he had actually shown some interest; and with Meredith). (p.48)

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

So according to Massei RG was &#8220;good friends&#8221; with AK and MK.

Moreover Rudy did not have access to the key to the house at 7 Via della Pergola and he did not have special visiting relationships with the girls from upstairs, where it does not turn out he had ever gone, and thus there was no reason at all that suspicions about what had been done to Meredith, about whom, it must also be observed, he had never manifested any interest, should have been directed towards him.

&#8230;

Under other circumstances, it seems unlikely that Meredith, alone at home at night (her coming home as has been seen took place no earlier than 21:00 pm) would have opened the door to the house to Rudy and let him come in.

Indeed, she had only had occasional meetings with Rudy, while she was with others and never alone. She did not talk about Rudy, and her English girlfriends declared that they did not know who he was and that Meredith had never said a word about him. 58

Besides, if Rudy had asked about Giacomo Silenzi or some other of the boys downstairs with whom he had some relationship, it would have been enough to let him know that there was nobody there, thus removing any reason that Meredith may have had for letting Rudy come into the house.

And even if it is admitted that Meredith could have allowed Rudy into the house, since Rudy went into the big bathroom (the one next to the living room) and all the action of the violence took place in Meredith&#8217;s room (it is enough to consider that in that room the body of the victim was found, her clothes torn and removed, the blood) and that there are no signs indicating a different place for the action of the violence, it must be hypothesised that Meredith, alone in the house at night (after 21:00 pm) allowed Rudy to enter the bathroom and went back into her own room.

This too is [47] an unlikely hypothesis: the front door was defective and it would not have been enough to pull it in order to close it: consequently Meredith would have had to take herself from her own room into the living room and from there to the entrance door to lock up as soon as Rudy, leaving the bathroom, called her to say he was going away.

Better to wait in the living room and thus prevent Rudy, who was coming out of the bathroom, from being able to take himself into Meredith&#8217;s bedroom and try to make a &#8218;move&#8219; on her.
..

Such a cunning scenario cannot be traced back to Rudy Guede, who on the other hand, entered the house through the entrance door, without any [48] breaking in or forcing, but with the agreement of whoever had available the house and the key to the entrance door.

Whoever permitted Rudy Guede to enter the house that night was not Meredith but others who also had the house available and could freely gain access to it. (p.57-59)

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

Then when it suits his narrative, there is no earthly reason that MK would let Rudy in to the apartment. It must be his other &#8220;good friend&#8221; AK. Yet, Massei has no idea how MK could let him in the apartment. However, Massei surmises AK would not only allow him in the apartment but conspire to murder and sexually assault MK along with RS whom no one has ever been able to confirm RG had ever met before that night.

Neither, AK nor MK had any real relationship with RG. AK is damned, because RG stated an interest in her. There are other examples (I am too lazy to find them all), where Massie infers a relationship due to RG&#8217;s interest. It reads as a very sexist perspective, and I don&#8217;t know if it is due to Massei&#8217;s age, Italian machismo, or something is lost in the translation. However, it is very demeaning that if a man shows interest in a woman they have a &#8220;good relationship or friendship&#8221;.

The whole report reads like these excerpts. There are numerous incidents: the break-in, the cell phone activity, the heroin dealer/informant &#8220;eyewitness&#8221;, RG&#8217;s criminal activity, the non-existent purchase of bleach, etc. which are open to interpretation about how they are occurred. They are almost all coin flips (could have been a break-in or it could have been staged) at best, and every time Massei makes the coin land on its head. The bleach incident is not even a 50/50 proposition; I think it is highly unlikely that incident happened, since there were bleach bottles at both AK&#8217;s and RS&#8217;s residences, and the forensic team testified that the crime scene did not appear to have been scrubbed.

This Court deems that the testimony of Quintavalle is reliable. It was discovered that Inspector Volturno did not ask Quintavalle if, on the morning of November 2, he saw Amanda Knox in his shop.

He was asked &#8211; so Quintavalle recalled - about purchases made by Raffaele Sollecito. Mr. Quintavalle did not say anything about having seen Amanda Knox on the morning of November 2, 2007 in his [76] shop because he was not questioned about this and because, as indicated by Quintavalle himself, he considered this fact to be insignificant.

He later spoke about having seen Amanda Knox because a young man who used to live above his shop, who he knew, Antioco Fois, had just graduated and had become a freelance reporter for the newspaper Giornale dell&#8217;Umbria. When he passed him, he would sometimes ask: "But do you know anything? Did you see something? Did you hear something?" So one day Quintavalle told Fois that he had seen Amanda Knox on the morning of November 2; later he decided to go to the Public Prosecutor&#8217;s Office because Antioco Fois convinced him that this fact might be important.

Consequently, the fact of not telling Inspector Volturno about seeing Amanda on the morning of November 2 and the fact of having come forward only after having been convinced by Antioco Fois about the possible significance of this event, do not reduce the reliability of the witness, since these facts do not affect the genuineness of the memory.

Conversely, it is worth observing that the witness gave a precise description of what he saw on the morning of November 2 and also provided a description of certain physical features of the woman he saw (light blue eyes and pale face) which, together with the unusual time, may well have fixed in his memory what Quintavalle said he saw. In addition, it should be added that one evening prior to November 2 and shortly after 20:00 pm, he noticed the young woman when she came into the shop with someone he knew well (Raffaele Sollecito) after the shop had closed. To this it should be added that witness Ana Marina Chiriboga, at the time an employee in Quintavalle&#8217;s shop, said that Quintavalle asked her whether that morning she had seen Amanda and Chiriboga answered no (page 74, hearing on June 26, 2009). This question necessarily presupposes that Mr. Quintavalle had seen 85
Amanda Knox that morning. And since he did not know whether or not she had bought anything (see above-mentioned statements by Quintavalle, hearing on March 21, 2009), he was asking his employees in order to gather information on that subject.

These elements contradict the version provided by Amanda of a peaceful night of continuous and prolonged sleep that she and Raffaele allegedly spent together; elements which also show a peculiar condition in which both Amanda [77] and Raffaele must have found themselves: at 5.32 am, Raffaele Sollecito went to his computer and listened to music for about half an hour; he also turned on his cellphone; at 7.45 am Amanda was already out of the house and entering into Quintavalle&#8217;s shop, showing a particular urgency to buy and do something; the trip to Gubbio had by now been forgotten and when Francesco Sollecito phoned his son at 9:30 am about that trip, his son was still in bed.(p.84-85)
&#8230;
Amanda and Raffaele were seen together, constantly and by several people on November 1, 2007: Filomena Romanelli and her boyfriend Marco Zaroli had seen them together in the afternoon in the house in Via della Pergola; Jovana Popovic saw them together in the house in Corso Garibaldi.

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito lived, in those days, like in symbiosis, as if they were a couple according to what has already been presented. (p.87)

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

Two pages dedicated to support unreliable testimony from a person paid by the Italian press for his exclusive eyewitness account. Then, a short mention that the other coworker contradicts the person who had a financial incentive to testify. Not to mention this incident destroys Massei&#8217;s contention throughout the report that AK and RS were unable to do anything independent of each other during the time of these events.

The whole report reads like this passage. Pages of unsubstantiated reasoning contorted to fit contradictory and convoluted facts. Steely Dan wrote an album about this type of thinking called &#8220;Pretzel Logic&#8221; back in the early 1970s. I have no idea how people can be so sanctimonious about this report and profess any claims of AK&#8217;s and RS&#8217;s innocence are refuted by this document. I suspect many have not read it at all, and those that have read it hope no critical thinkers are able stay awake long enough to finish it.

For the appeals process, it seems like a show trial that Mussolini would have been proud of back in the early 1930s. Heilmann is lathering on a veneer of verisimilitude on this pig, but truth is just something to be manipulated to satisfy the masses. Overturning the original verdict seems about as likely as Meredith Kercher ever getting any real justice.
 
I guess I'm viewing untruthful statements provided by the pair during a murder investigation as deliberate deception, and you are viewing those same statements with a more forgiving approach ... as misspeaks.

True. I think you could take any of us--certainly any two of us--and grill us long enough and end up with a list of inconsistent statements.

This is why NOBODY should talk to LE without a lawyer, because the inconsistent statements produced by the interrogation process almost invariably end up being held as proof of "lying." If LE finds a better suspect, no problem; but if not...
 
I have been lurking on these forums for a little over a month. After today's events, I had to break down and register. This saga is just infuriating to my sense of a logical and rational world of law. I know it does not exist, but every case like this further erodes my misplaced faith (hope?) in justice ultimately prevailing.
<modsnip>
.

:Welcome1::welcome: Still reading and digesting your long post but want to welcome you. You make many good points. I was disappointed today, not in Guede, but in the lack of a rigorous cross-examination by the Defense. I agree about the pretzel logic , too :laugh:
 
Regarding the dinner time, phone call and water leak:


Knox places the water pipe break after dinner, Sollecito places the water leak after dinner. Sollecito told his father about the water leak after dinner at 8:42. Therefore, they had dinner before 8:42, before the water leak, before the phone call.


"Therefore, she stayed with Raffaele, with whom she smoked some marijuana. They had dinner together, but quite late, perhaps 23:00 pm. After dinner, she noticed a bit of blood on Raffaele&#8217;s hand and had the impression that &#8218;it had to do with blood coming from the fish&#8219; that they had cooked. Raffaele, after having eaten, had washed the dishes, but a break in the pipes had occurred under the sink. And water was leaking, with flooding on the floor. Since they didn&#8217;t have a mop, they decided that they would do the cleaning the next day with a mop that she could get from her house."

pg 67

"They ate dinner, &#8218;but very late&#8219; (page 77). They ate fish and salad. Then, while Raffaele was washing the dishes, from the sink, a leak was noticed: &#8218;water was leaking below and he looked at it; he turned off the water and then looked below the sink, and this pipe had become loose, so the water that was coming from the faucet was leaking out.&#8219;"

pg 69

"In the course of her witness examination she indicated that they had dinner around 21:30 pm to 22:00 pm; then she put the time further out, at about 23:00 pm. But this claim is contradicted by the declarations made by Francesco Sollecito. He, as noted, stated that he spoke with his son on the phone at 20:42 pm (phone records corroborate his statement), who told him "he was with Amanda" (p. 16, hearing of June 19, 2009). Indeed, later on, around midnight of that "November 1", knowing that he was with this girl, he limited himself to just sending him a text message (p. 19, hearing cited above). Francesco Sollecito also explained that, during the 8:42 pm call, his son mentioned "that while he was washing dishes he realised he had a water spill" (p. 45)."

pg 78

Ref: Massei Report
 
I started at the True Justice for Meredith Kercher site, but I found their pro-prosecution bias overwhelming if not downright nauseating. It is fine to support a verdict but to be so gleeful about it is unseemly.

@ mdana: I agree, and have felt the same at Perugia Murder File. To be soberly pro-prosecution is OK; to be giddy and blood-thirsty - and it takes a LOT to get me to accuse anyone of such - is undignified and unseemly and suspicious.
 
I have been lurking on these forums for a little over a month. After today's events, I had to break down and register. This saga is just infuriating to my sense of a logical and rational world of law. I know it does not exist, but every case like this further erodes my misplaced faith (hope?) in justice ultimately prevailing....

Welcome to WS and wow! That is one hell of a debut post!

I'm impressed not just with your knowledge of the case but with the allusions to Christopher Hitchens and Charles I.

I hope you plan to stick around and participate.

P.S. I'm not a girl and I'm not 20, but I wouldn't dream of going out after sleeping (much less to meet my boyfriend's parents) without showering and washing my hair. My husband is the same.

Since AK was scheduled to work late that night, is it possible she didn't originally intend to stay over with RS? I know they had been glued at the hip, but if she was working late and he had nothing special to do, maybe the original plan was for AK to stay at home, and then pack and shower at the cottage in the a.m.
 
Regarding the dinner time, phone call and water leak:


Knox places the water pipe break after dinner, Sollecito places the water leak after dinner. Sollecito told his father about the water leak after dinner at 8:42. Therefore, they had dinner before 8:42, before the water leak, before the phone call.


"Therefore, she stayed with Raffaele, with whom she smoked some marijuana. They had dinner together, but quite late, perhaps 23:00 pm. After dinner, she noticed a bit of blood on Raffaele’s hand and had the impression that ‚it had to do with blood coming from the fish&#8219; that they had cooked. Raffaele, after having eaten, had washed the dishes, but a break in the pipes had occurred under the sink. And water was leaking, with flooding on the floor. Since they didn’t have a mop, they decided that they would do the cleaning the next day with a mop that she could get from her house."

pg 67

"They ate dinner, ‚but very late&#8219; (page 77). They ate fish and salad. Then, while Raffaele was washing the dishes, from the sink, a leak was noticed: ‚water was leaking below and he looked at it; he turned off the water and then looked below the sink, and this pipe had become loose, so the water that was coming from the faucet was leaking out.&#8219;"

pg 69

"In the course of her witness examination she indicated that they had dinner around 21:30 pm to 22:00 pm; then she put the time further out, at about 23:00 pm. But this claim is contradicted by the declarations made by Francesco Sollecito. He, as noted, stated that he spoke with his son on the phone at 20:42 pm (phone records corroborate his statement), who told him "he was with Amanda" (p. 16, hearing of June 19, 2009). Indeed, later on, around midnight of that "November 1", knowing that he was with this girl, he limited himself to just sending him a text message (p. 19, hearing cited above). Francesco Sollecito also explained that, during the 8:42 pm call, his son mentioned "that while he was washing dishes he realised he had a water spill" (p. 45)."

pg 78

Ref: Massei Report

otto, thanks for refreshing our memories.

When I first read the Massei Report, I wondered why Massei assumed that the washing of dishes that resulted in the leak took place AFTER that evening's meal. I know Massei reports that sequence; I just don't know how he draws that conclusion.

As mdana points out, some of us do dishes before cooking dinner as well as afterwards.

As mdana also points out, we sometimes speak generally on the phone without thinking our words will become evidence in a murder trial. Did RS mention the leak so as to get off the phone and back to his girlfriend? Did RS say they had eaten, or was that an assumption by his father?

These may seem like a lot of trivial questions, but this "trivia" is being used to put two people in prison for a quarter-century each.
 
Starting a new thread here and updating the rules of engagement. From this point forward TOS and posting policies will be enforced.

Please do a review of the rules here: The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

and pay particular attention to this thread: Best Practices Dealing with your fellow posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

If you have any questions or concerns, let me or one of the other mods know.

Thank you for your cooperation and may this appeal be concluded soon :wink:

Salem

ETA: Please thank this post to indicate you have reviewed the rules before posting in this thread.

This might be a good time to remind everyone of the Terms of Service.
 
otto, thanks for refreshing our memories.

When I first read the Massei Report, I wondered why Massei assumed that the washing of dishes that resulted in the leak took place AFTER that evening's meal. I know Massei reports that sequence; I just don't know how he draws that conclusion.

As mdana points out, some of us do dishes before cooking dinner as well as afterwards.

As mdana also points out, we sometimes speak generally on the phone without thinking our words will become evidence in a murder trial. Did RS mention the leak so as to get off the phone and back to his girlfriend? Did RS say they had eaten, or was that an assumption by his father?

These may seem like a lot of trivial questions, but this "trivia" is being used to put two people in prison for a quarter-century each.

All that is really relevant is what Knox and Sollecito did on that particular evenings. They ate dinner of fish and salad, they did dishes, there was a water leak and Sollecito gave this information to his father during an 8:42 phone call. The various times that Knox and Sollecito gave as the time of dinner were all untrue.
 
All that is really relevant is what Knox and Sollecito did on that particular evenings. They ate dinner of fish and salad, they did dishes, there was a water leak and Sollecito gave this information to his father during an 8:42 phone call. The various times that Knox and Sollecito gave as the time of dinner were all untrue.

But that's what I'm asking: how do we KNOW what RS said to Dr. S?

Do we have a translation of Dr. S' testimony?

ETA for example: if I tell you in a phone call that I am washing dishes and just discovered a leak, you might well assume that I have finished dinner and I am washing up afterwards. But maybe I'm washing the dishes from breakfast and lunch BEFORE making dinner.

This is just one of the "facts" in the Massei Report where I can't tell if I'm reading a statement of fact or somebody's conclusion based on a misunderstanding.

(BTW re TOS, as far as I can tell, we're all behaving rather well, don't you think?)
 
But that's what I'm asking: how do we KNOW what RS said to Dr. S?

Do we have a translation of Dr. S' testimony?

I posted information the last time we dissected this particular point ... not going to look for it again ... but his original testimony was a couple of hundred pages in length. I have not seen a translation of his testimony.
 
Regarding the dinner time, phone call and water leak:


Knox places the water pipe break after dinner, Sollecito places the water leak after dinner. Sollecito told his father about the water leak after dinner at 8:42. Therefore, they had dinner before 8:42, before the water leak, before the phone call.


"Therefore, she stayed with Raffaele, with whom she smoked some marijuana. They had dinner together, but quite late, perhaps 23:00 pm. After dinner, she noticed a bit of blood on Raffaele’s hand and had the impression that ‚it had to do with blood coming from the fish&#8219; that they had cooked. Raffaele, after having eaten, had washed the dishes, but a break in the pipes had occurred under the sink. And water was leaking, with flooding on the floor. Since they didn’t have a mop, they decided that they would do the cleaning the next day with a mop that she could get from her house."

pg 67

"They ate dinner, ‚but very late&#8219; (page 77). They ate fish and salad. Then, while Raffaele was washing the dishes, from the sink, a leak was noticed: ‚water was leaking below and he looked at it; he turned off the water and then looked below the sink, and this pipe had become loose, so the water that was coming from the faucet was leaking out.&#8219;"

pg 69

"In the course of her witness examination she indicated that they had dinner around 21:30 pm to 22:00 pm; then she put the time further out, at about 23:00 pm. But this claim is contradicted by the declarations made by Francesco Sollecito. He, as noted, stated that he spoke with his son on the phone at 20:42 pm (phone records corroborate his statement), who told him "he was with Amanda" (p. 16, hearing of June 19, 2009). Indeed, later on, around midnight of that "November 1", knowing that he was with this girl, he limited himself to just sending him a text message (p. 19, hearing cited above). Francesco Sollecito also explained that, during the 8:42 pm call, his son mentioned "that while he was washing dishes he realised he had a water spill" (p. 45)."

pg 78

Ref: Massei Report

I guess I had forgotten the MR's conclusion. My problems would be a "spill" would be a sink overflow and a "leak" would be a pipe leaking water. I would like to read the orignal transcript of some of these summaries, because context is lost and Massei always goes with the most damning inference. Another question I have is there any translation confusion with dinner and supper like in the states people state supper interchangeably with dinner and lunch. So I might be talking about having suppper and my listener might interpret I meant dinner when I meant lunch. I doubt it makes any difference, just curious.

Lastly, this prefaced all of AK's testimony for the dinner in question.


In that piece of writing, Amanda Knox prefaced her explanation of the various circumstances with the following phrase: ‚in my mind there are things that I remember and things that are confused. (p.66)

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

Could be establishing a false alibi, could be a kid who did too much alcohol and drugs the previous weeks. Hell it could be me, my wife, or my parents any night of the week. It is amazing if you quiz people about things like this how off 2-4 people can be. At least, three out of four us would be liars if it wa my family.
 
Right, it was a total waste. He did not even need to appear. All he said has been said before, and the Judge and jury already knew he did not corroborate inmates' testimony. Just a big nothing. Defense did not even bother attacking him.

And from Huffington Post:
Rudy Hermann Guede: Amanda Knox And Ex-Boyfriend Are The Killers

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/rudy-hermann-guede-amanda-knox-testimony_n_885005.html
Why did everyone who is pro-Knox act as though getting Guede on the stand was a good thing???:maddening:
I can answer that by saying I thought that since he was a witness, he'd be questioned just like that homeless guy, like FR, like AK, like that half deaf lady, and all the others.

I thought he'd be treated like a new witness. I don't know what the hell that was today.
 
Lastly in regards to TOD2 (time of dinner), Dr. Sollecito might have might have stated the leak happened in the conversation when RS told him later, perhaps thinking it would buttress RS's alibi. Unlikely but it is possible.

This case reminds me of the documentary The Thin Blue Line in some respects, because the prosecution goes after the one person (or in this case persons) who had no alibi while completing disregarding the most likely suspect (who never completelly confessed but alluded to his own guilt). Why, because the prosecution wanted someone to fry and David Harris the most likely killer was a juvenile. He then went onto kill others (convicted of two suspected of at least another one) and eventually was electrocuted in the same state two decades later. Another similarity is the lead investigator claiming he could tell they AK and RS were guilty just by looking at them, while in the Randall Adams case (falsely put on death row for a decade) one of the jurors stated almost the exact same thing. The biggest similarity is that Randall Adams had no record (might have had a pot possesion if he had anything can't remember for sure) at the time of his conviction. However, at the age of 28 he morphs into a deranged psychopath according to the Dallas prosectution. Does that sound familiar?



Melvyn Carson Bruder: Prosecutors in Dallas have said for years - any prosecutor can convict a guilty man. It takes a great prosecutor to convict an innocent man.

Randall Adams: You have a D.A, he doesn't talk about when they convict you, or how they convict you. He's talking about how he's going to kill ya. He don't give a damn if you're innocent, he don't give a damn if you're guilty. He's talking... about killing ya.


David Harris: [asked if Randall Dale Adams is innocent] Did you ask him?
Errol Morris: Yes.
David Harris: What did he say?
Errol Morris: Well, he's always said he's innocent.
David Harris: There you go. You didn't believe him did you? Criminals always lie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096257/quotes

Great movie if you haven't seen it. All the witnessess came across as deranged, even the ones that destroyed the prosecution's witnessess. What struck me was the prosecutor of the case was so proud that the jury was unanimous and the Texas Supreme Court voted 8-1 to nullify (might not be the correct term) the verdict. He was crowing about how he really won, because it was 12-8 guilty, if you combined the two "scores". Absolutely sickening that a public servant would treat these serious matters so flippantly. I think he became a judge, but I could be mistaken.

I think originally, the police and Mignini went after AK and RS because, they really thought they were involved. I think after the whole PL fiasco and when RG turned out to be involved they had to continue with the diversion of these two. If not for this circus, questions and a scandal would have arisen from how they allowed RG to slip through their fingers for the burglaries (I suspect he was an informant) right before the murder. That is my theory for why they are still in jail.
 
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