Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #15

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Are you referring to this passage? If so, that is from the MOT (the first half) not me.

Oh, yeah, I was.

Thanks for pointing that out! Now I see what you were doing. I was basing my reading off thinking you were asserting that AK's story had inconsistencies. Now I have to read it again, not looking for your explanation of that "thesis," so to speak.

Thanks!
 
A raw video of RG testifying would be really nice.

Did Sollecito also get to make a statement after RG testified, or only AK?

Salem
 
ooooh, just seeing the remarks on YouTube of today's Umbria coverage of the court hearing, someone saying "read the Massei Report, she is guilty as sin, hope she rots in jail"....i think Rudy is the one who is the evil doer....as someone said, the victim lie gasping as he violated her and he it is who does not care for the truth....ugh.....:razz::razz::razz:

It's obivous. How dare he say he tried to help her and she was dressed when he left.

If she was dressed when he left, then how does he explain her bloody droplets on her breasts? The ones she got from breathing after her neck was stabbed and her bra and shirt moved from her chest?

I mean, is he saying that he left her alive and bleeding, and someone else returned to pull her shirt up and take her pants off as she gasped her last breaths? That's even a more hideous thought that what he did.

And I dont get how he's not blamed for not getting her help. That is absurd! They say he "Tried" to help her with some stinking towels? And that was a sufficient attempt in the judge's eyes? And so he went home, changed clothes and went clubbing, and the judge says, "That's okay. At least you tried to help her with some towels."

What the hell????

Why can't he be in more serious trouble for leaving her to die? I don't get it. What happens in the United states if you see someone injured and dying and you admit to leaving them in that condition? Seriously, I want to know. Is that willful manslaughter or something? It's got to be some kind of crime.
 
A raw video of RG testifying would be really nice.

Did Sollecito also get to make a statement after RG testified, or only AK?

Salem

From the video SMK posted, looked lke Ak spoke for a while and the RS did, but I think RG had been taken from the room before they did.
 
Yes, I agree. The truth is what matters, not some team winning. I am not "Team Knox" as some call it. I am on the side of truth. If someone can make me believe once again that Meredith is dead due in large part to AK and RS, then OK, let them be sentenced once more. Perhaps the Defense feels Rudy's reputation preceded him, and that they need not attack him? (I must admit, I was a bit upset to see how refined and handsome and well spoken he appears. If only people would just be all of what they appear to be.......ugh :razz: )

It's terrible that a man with his potential, given the chances that he was given just blew it profoundly. He reminds me of that kid, and I can't remember his name. The one who raped girls in high school and got away with it, and then his parents sent him abroad to escape justice. Also of Vanderslooth.

These young men get great, well-off families and chances at good educations, but blow it. I realize RG had a "woe is me" beginning, but he was adopted by good people, right? Anyways, I don't know or care, because I have no intention of sympathizing with him. The prosecution has done enough of that for everyone.
 
From Rolling Stone magazine, June 27, 2011:
wow, it was long...

when I read the article earlier today, it started off saying Rudy took "a swig of orange juice" right out of the carton. Technically incorrect because while we all may say oj... we know in his diary he actually says he drank apricot juice and water -

I know, not a big deal, just an observation -
eta: I thought the writer deleted it but it's on pg. 7

one other thing I wanted to add... Rudy drinking juice straight out of the carton seems to be a detail that sticks with everyone, repeated over and over... probably because it's one of Rudy's rare truths
the part that is always left off though is his reason for doing it.. because (she wasn't paying attention)
I think this is another rare truth
 
It was clear, from the purposeful savagery of this final blow, that the intent was to kill. But since the blade missed the carotid artery, Kercher's agony lasted as long as 10 minutes. An experienced killer would have known better.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/the-neverending-nightmare-of-amanda-knox-20110627

If this above is true, that she took 10 minutes to die, then there's no way someone else came back in and pulle her shirt over her head and pulled her bra off after RG left.

Imagine, she's stabbed. Now the clock ticks. Killer is yelling and fighting with RG. Maybe that takes 1 minute. He runs out the house, and I assume RG gets his pants on and gets the towel. Maybe that takes two minutes. He tries to staunch the bleeding. I'm giving that 3 minutes. He can't do it, so he looks through her purse for the money--I mean the phones--but there's no phone. He rinses off and runs out. 10 minutes ought to be up by then.

If not, then very darn close to up. too close for others to return to the house, pull her shirt up, remove her bra, and then she's still breathing.

So is this article right? 10 minutes?

It does fit the scenerio of RG subduing her, dragged her to the middle of the floor to sexually assault her, becoming sickened that she's dying while he's doing it, so he stops, gets the towels, maybe searches her purse for the phone to call for help (doubt it) then she's dead while he's still there.

If this 10 minutes is correct, I do not understand why the court would believe one thing RG said about trying to help MK.
 
Yeah, "sounded" good, but I don't know what the heck happened in court today.:waitasec::maddening:

I don't either... I thought you had some good questions though..
the ones that made me lol

1) Did you know that prosecutor Mignini told Oggi that you “rummaged through” Meredith’s purse?

2) You say you saw AK fleeing? did she have the mop bucket? or just the mop?

3) Did you have some mushrooms on you that night?​

(or any on his kabob?)
 
.

I was interested in hearing the other inconsistencies, but Welcome to the maddeness!

However, if you are interested in what inconsistencies (holes might be a better term) here are few. An even better phrase might be concerns that raise doubt about involvement.

1. The time of dinner-Amanda did try to move it out later than it seems from others statements about the time. I think it could be an honest mistake or an attempt to create stronger alibi. Even if she is lying and not mistaken it could be because she was worried about becoming a suspect. I might do it under similar circumstances. I think Randall Adams did the same thing, because he got dropped off by David Harris immediately before Harris shot the officer. I think Adams fibbed by about 30-60 minutes about what time he got back to his motel room. This was not brought out in the film, but it was my interpretation of when drive-in movies play and when shows were on in the Central Time Zone back in 1980.

2. RS bleeding after dinner according to AK-People cut themselves all the time while preparing a meal. I think it is more likely that he cut himself repairing or trying to fix the leaking pipe, if he really was bleeding. Again it is not that weird but seems suspicious when there is a murder.

3.Transportation of the mop-Again people do this sort of thing all the time, but seems sketchy if a murder has occurred.

4. Demeanor at the time of discovery of Meredith Kercher's body-Difficult to discern how much of it is after the fact interpretation by the witnessess. I know in the Willingham case if you compared the witness transcripts to the officers at the scene to those same witnesses trial testimony it was almost 180 degrees opposite interpretation of Willinghams actions and demeanor. Why? Because the witnesses had altered their recollections of Willingham to fit their new judgement that he was guilty.

I would vote for not guilty for AK and RS at the present time. I have theory they might have looked at MK for a time period before they called police, because of RS is suppposedly into gore. When I was in college, I worked at a hospital and this student around my age came into the E.R. D.O.A. I had seen corpses before, but I had not seen one that was my age and not of natural causes. So, a coworker told me to go check it out (I worked in a different dept.), to see what happened. It was gruesome the section that killed the student, but the rest of the body was just as healthy looking as any other person that age. I looked over the body for a good ten minutes, because I found it fascinating. I think RS and AK might have done that or something similar not out of maliciousness, just curiosity, and they have tried to cover up that aspect, which has created problems in their alibis. Anymore involvement at the moment I found too difficult to believe, unless RG had given a credible statement in today's proceedings.

There are probably many more discrepancies in AK and RS statements/actions, but I am tired and worn out. I would really like to read transcripts of the witnesses and suspect testimony to the LE before the trial if that is available. One thing I have noticed in the cases I have followed is that many witnesses trial testimony does not match up to their initial and or follow-up statements. Willingham's wife's testimony/statement changed at least three times during the course of the investigation. People lie or make mistakes about their memories or what exactly they saw frequently in these types of investigations, but it does not mean they were guilty of the murder or capital crime being investigated. I bet if the police wanted to pin this on Infallibamena (my nickname for Filamena) or Giorgio Cocciaretto they could make basically the same case.

Does any else think Cocciaretto might have been involved? Idle speculation (which I should refrain), but while reading the MOT he gave off the David Harris vibe to me, fingering Amanda and Rudy (he was the only one that stated RG told AK that he liked her) if I am reading the report correctly. Again if I am reading the report correctly, he also did not live with guys downstairs and from the report seemed the closest to RG. If he was or was not involved, and I have no real reason to believe he was, I wonder if the boys in the apartment downstairs were investigated very thoroughly.
 
I don't either... I thought you had some good questions though..
the ones that made me lol

1) Did you know that prosecutor Mignini told Oggi that you “rummaged through” Meredith’s purse?

2) You say you saw AK fleeing? did she have the mop bucket? or just the mop?

3) Did you have some mushrooms on you that night?​

(or any on his kabob?)

Oh Miley, priceless!

:floorlaugh:
 
I know, I know about RF, but why did she bring a whole gang of people with her?

Had the lovers waited for the carabinieri, a series of catastrophic blunders would likely have been avoided. For starters, the carabinieri would have prevented anyone from tramping through the crime scene. The two postal-police officers, however, allowed themselves to be led through the house in search of clues by a band of child sleuths out of Scooby-Doo. For there were now six of them in all — shortly after the officers showed up, two cars had arrived with Romanelli, her boyfriend and a third couple, friends of Romanelli's.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/the-neverending-nightmare-of-amanda-knox-20110627?page=2
 
A raw video of RG testifying would be really nice.

Did Sollecito also get to make a statement after RG testified, or only AK?

Salem

Sollecito, 27, who is serving 25 years, also addressed the court on Monday, stating: "Amanda Knox and I have been fighting against shadows and voices for four years."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/27/amanda-knox-appeal-sex-change

He gave other statements, but I can't locate a better article I read earlier. Yet another problem with this case, the reporters and headline writers stress the luridness and the AK angle over comprehensive coverage and RS's involvement. I feel sorry for both of them, but RS always gets the short end of the stick in coverage, if he is even mentioned in reports, by the UK and US media.
 
Does any else think Cocciaretto might have been involved? Idle speculation (which I should refrain), but while reading the MOT he gave off the David Harris vibe to me, fingering Amanda and Rudy (he was the only one that stated RG told AK that he liked her) if I am reading the report correctly. Again if I am reading the report correctly, he also did not live with guys downstairs and from the report seemed the closest to RG. If he was or was not involved, and I have no real reason to believe he was, I wonder if the boys in the apartment downstairs were investigated very thoroughly.

a couple things you mention don't really faze me and I counted them as irrelevant based on other evidence, but the cut on RS. I didn't know about that. And I was fixated on that Mop bucket thing for a minute.

I'm tired, too, but I appreciate your fresh approach to the case.
 
Italian judicial system explained easily by Rolling stone.

same thing others here have said:

The Italian system, despite its many celebrated inefficiencies and inanities, is not all bad. The Italian appeal process, for instance, is more lenient than the American model. In Italy, the appeals judge is allowed to retry the entire case. To the enormous relief of the Knox family, Judge Claudio Hellmann began the appeal with an assertion of reasonable doubt. "The only thing we know for certain in this complex case," he declared, "is that Meredith was murdered."

Hellmann ordered new analyses of the DNA tests by independent experts — a request that was refused, for no particular reason, during the original trial. There have been indications that the readings on the knife and the bra clasp will be ruled too weak to satisfy international forensics guidelines. If this is what the independent experts conclude, the Knox team anticipates a full acquittal.

Italian observers are skeptical. The Italian judicial system is carefully designed to ensure that no one is penalized or shamed egregiously. As in Italian politics, everyone gets a little something. The initial criminal trial is closer to an inquisition, and favors the prosecution. Sentences tend to be harsher than merited. But that is because the trial is merely a prologue to the mandatory appeal, which often results in a reduced sentence.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/the-neverending-nightmare-of-amanda-knox-20110627?page=6
 
This was originally in the Manifesto Alert, hopefully edited enough for posting. It should read like this, and the deletion of this section makes the piece not make sense. The deletion is perhaps the reason wasnt me could not follow the post. If an editor finds this kosher for the thread, please delete this post and edit the bold section into the original post, but unbold this edited section, if you make that correction. Thanks.

...

The crux of the problem seems to be that people have to present themselves as experts on this case, and if you do that you have profess that is overwhelmingly evident that AK is guilty as sin or as innocent as Mother Theresa (not good example for Christopher Hitchens fans). However, if you are an honest analyst, no sweeping judgment like that is really possible if you look at all the evidence, because you have to ignore too much information that does not fit tidily into those confining conclusions.

<modsnip>

For example, some might argue for the prosecution side that Dr. Sollecito’s testimony must mean irrefutably that AK and RS ate prior to 8:40. However, when a person is on the phone, and they mention they are doing something does not mean conclusively they are actually doing what that they mention in the conversation at precisely that time. Many times when I am conversing with my mom, I will state something that is not factually accurate about eating. For an example, I might state “we are about to eat”, when I really mean I am getting ready to make the meal or I just want to get her off the phone, and we are not going to eat for another hour or two. Many times I am not precise about something, like when I went to the movies, I might tell a friend it was Saturday and really went on Sunday. I might realize quite soon after (or much later) I misspoke, but it does not really matter (unless I am a suspect in a murder investigation) so I don’t correct my “damning lie.” Unless RS and Dr. S were videoconferencing, I don’t think AK and RS are necessarily lying if they state they ate later.

Some seem convinced, because AK was scheduled to work later that evening that she would have had to have eaten at this specific time, as if her schedule revolves around a preconceived notion about an adequate time to have dinner before a 10:00 shift. I am not as convinced that it is so unfathomable for the two to have eaten later.

Rigidity of thought to a specific course of action for something that could have many alternate possibilities reminds me of the Massei Report, which is just absurdly illogical and frankly misogynistic.


<modsnip>

But Amanda Knox’s story also has significant inconsistencies.

...
 
I didn't realize you couldn't get out the front door if it was locked and you didn't have a key. Makes the finding Meredith's keys much easier for me to believe.
 
Thanks.

I posted a long time ago when this same thing was rehashed that I am one who must wash dishes BEFORE I cook. IF I cook. And that usually because, being single, I have left cups, small plates for quick meals, coffee cups, spoons to stir coffee etc all over the kitchen counter.

So the once every week or two that I want to make a real meal, yeah, I gotta clean up the kitchen first or there will be NO room on the counter to cook on. Geez, the last time I cooked might have been over a month ago. Besides some little egg sandwich that is. and as of right now, I used both skillets to make my egg sandwiches over the weekend, so now if I want to use a skillet, I have to wash dishes first.

RS is a male college student, who had a maid. So I'm going out on a limb to say he probably left his dishes for her to, and that would mean that he'd have to clean up the kitchen before sponteniously cooking with AK.

I'm just guessing, but again, it's one of those things where people want to stereotype people as all being the exact same and if you deviate from what someone else THINKS your home life is supposed to be like, then that makes you a liar or killer. That is not logical.

In my house there are three of us. We leave breakfast and lunch dishes to soak in the sink and then someone washes them just before we make the one, communal meal of the day, evening supper. Then the dishes are washed again after that third meal.
 
It's obivous. How dare he say he tried to help her and she was dressed when he left.

If she was dressed when he left, then how does he explain her bloody droplets on her breasts? The ones she got from breathing after her neck was stabbed and her bra and shirt moved from her chest?

I mean, is he saying that he left her alive and bleeding, and someone else returned to pull her shirt up and take her pants off as she gasped her last breaths? That's even a more hideous thought that what he did.

And I dont get how he's not blamed for not getting her help. That is absurd! They say he "Tried" to help her with some stinking towels? And that was a sufficient attempt in the judge's eyes? And so he went home, changed clothes and went clubbing, and the judge says, "That's okay. At least you tried to help her with some towels."

What the hell????

Why can't he be in more serious trouble for leaving her to die? I don't get it. What happens in the United states if you see someone injured and dying and you admit to leaving them in that condition? Seriously, I want to know. Is that willful manslaughter or something? It's got to be some kind of crime.

The U.S. has a lot of states with different laws, but generally speaking we don't have the "duty to lend aid" laws that are popular in France and other European countries.

So if you did nothing to cause a person's injuries, but simply walked away without assisting the victim, you probably wouldn't be guilty of a crime.

If you did ANYTHING to cause the injuries (including committing any other felony with the actual killer), however, you'd probably be convicted of murder. I think it's safe to say LE would look for any possible way to charge you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
164
Guests online
1,744
Total visitors
1,908

Forum statistics

Threads
606,769
Messages
18,211,039
Members
233,962
Latest member
Kudo-magician179
Back
Top