Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[For The Kids]

What she is trying to say is that since the perugian authorities illegally conducted the interview with AK without recording it, thus making it impossible for either side to 'prove' their story, the slander charges should be dropped.

When you say they illegally conducted the interview are the interviews normally recorded there or rather were they normally recorded at that time? And the other thing is if Amanda cant prove her story maybe she should stop making allegations also?

 

[For The Kids]

Yeah, that's the TV movie I'm talking about. I thought it was pretty non-committal in terms of AK's and RS' guilt, and not unduly tacky for that sort of film.

But I don't blame the victim's father for not liking it. Why would he?

Of course he wouldnt like it...it just opens the wound for him over and over

 

[Sonata]

Wasnt Meredith offered Amandas job?

No, that is a rumour that was spread. Both girls worked at the same bar. In fact part of the evidence in the case is based around the fact that Amanda was scheduled to work that night so we know she still had her job.

PS Nice to see a fellow Brit here!

 

[Sonata]

Erm i can assure you that i am not new to the case...with being English that would be kind of hard to be honest

As for the claims...what I dont understand is IF she was slapped ( which i dont personally believe she was) the logical idea would been to get her lawyer there immediately and photo any bruises immediately for proof and then put a complaint in immediately. As for her parents i think they have there own agenda for saying what they did as its far easier to blame the horrible foreigners than accept that her beloved daughter is simply a liar and for that matter probably far worse.

MOO

Amanda clearly knew nothing about her rights in the first place. She should have refused to talk to officers without a lawyer present let alone call a lawyer to corroborate the alleged slap.

What I'm saying is to me this is not a sign of her lying, it is a sign of her general naivity during the process.

To me, the fact that she neglected to involve a lawyer as an educated young woman is further evidence of her innocence. Surely a guilty party would insist on a lawyer present so that they didn't mess up?

JMO

 

[For The Kids]

Amanda clearly knew nothing about her rights in the first place. She should have refused to talk to officers without a lawyer present let alone call a lawyer to corroborate the alleged slap.

What I'm saying is to me this is not a sign of her lying, it is a sign of her general naivity during the process.

To me, the fact that she neglected to involve a lawyer as an educated young woman is further evidence of her innocence. Surely a guilty party would insist on a lawyer present so that they didn't mess up?

JMO

To be honest im not sure its evidence of her innocence cos she spoke with out a lawyer..some people simply think there too clever to mess up.

 

[Sonata]

To be honest im not sure its evidence of her innocence cos she spoke with out a lawyer..some people simply think there too clever to mess up.

I agree - it's not to be counted as evidence. I was just saying IMO it backs up my belief that she is innocent. Those who believe she is guilty probably see it as the opposite. The fact that it is so variable seems to me to show that it is not worth analysing since there are too many ways to spin it. It's just not solid enough to consider seriously as part of a reasoned argument.

 

[SMK]

Salon.com is running a feature today about Nina Burleigh's new book on Amanda, and how she looks like Perugia's ancient Madonnas:

Amanda Knox's captivating womanhood
The world was gripped by her murder trial -- but for many Italians, it was her femininity that held the appeal

The icon is a larger-than-life, clearly pregnant young woman, painted in 1515 by Giannicola di Paolo, one of Perugia’s Renaissance greats. She wears a brocade blue dress, and her pale eyes are strangely distant and slightly uneven. Perugians hundreds of years ago adorned her image with a real crown. Every day, parishioners can be seen kneeling before her. Over the centuries, they have appeased or thanked her with thousands of ex voto offerings — silver hearts and other body parts tied with small red ribbons -- tucked in the glass case behind her.

Both Perugia’s Madonnas have pale, heart-shaped faces, tiny pert noses, light distant eyes, small perfect mouths. Amanda Knox bears an uncanny resemblance to both of them. The hippie soccer player from twenty-first-century Seattle could have been the Renaissance artist’s model.

http://www.salon.com/news/crime/?story=/mwt/feature/2011/08/03/amanda_knox_excerpt

 

[otto]

Perhaps some interviews were forbidden, but not all.

Here is a link to an interview AK gave to the Italian magazine Oggi. The article isn't dated, but it contains a reference to AK's sentence of 26 years, so the interview was obviously done after AK's conviction:

http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=646&sid=343998


So much for a ban on all media interviews with Italian prisoners.

While looking for this info, I also found numerous instances of Italian mobsters publishing their autobiographies while in prison and even discovered that AK acted in a fictional film, the release of which is being held until after her trial is concluded. (That film has nothing to do with MK's murder or AK's trial.)

And of course, Italian MP, Rocco Girlanda, was allowed some 20 visits with AK while preparing his book, Take Me With You: Talks with Amanda Knox in Prison.

So the idea that Italian convicts have no way to profit while they are still in prison is entirely the unsourced invention of one poster here.

Was she interviewed in jail, or was she answering questions while at the courthouse?

 

[OldSteve]

Amanda clearly knew nothing about her rights in the first place. She should have refused to talk to officers without a lawyer present let alone call a lawyer to corroborate the alleged slap.

What I'm saying is to me this is not a sign of her lying, it is a sign of her general naivity during the process.

To me, the fact that she neglected to involve a lawyer as an educated young woman is further evidence of her innocence. Surely a guilty party would insist on a lawyer present so that they didn't mess up?

JMO

BBM
I believe if she was guilty she would have been on the first train out of there to Germany, and then home to the US.... then gotten lawyer'ed up!

This is especially so since her mom told her to come home on the very morning when AK told her mom what had happened... IIRC

 

[OldSteve]

SMK notice in what you quoted, and BBM :
"Both Perugia’s Madonnas have pale, heart-shaped faces, tiny pert noses, light distant eyes, small perfect mouths. Amanda Knox bears an uncanny resemblance to both of them. The hippie soccer player from twenty-first-century Seattle could have been the Renaissance artist’s model.

Since when did AK become a hippie?

 

[otto]

BBM
I believe if she was guilty she would have been on the first train out of there to Germany, and then home to the US.... then gotten lawyer'ed up!

This is especially so since her mom told her to come home on the very morning when AK told her mom what had happened... IIRC

I have to wonder why Edda and Knox's aunt both told her to get out of the country as soon as Knox phoned. I wonder if it had anything to do with the first phone call Knox made, the one where nothing had happened ... the call that Knox has inexplicably erased from her memory. It's rather drastic for Edda to immediately take a leave of absence from teaching, hop on a plane and fly to Italy to get her daughter out of the country.

 

[SMK]

SMK notice in what you quoted, and BBM :
"Both Perugia’s Madonnas have pale, heart-shaped faces, tiny pert noses, light distant eyes, small perfect mouths. Amanda Knox bears an uncanny resemblance to both of them. The hippie soccer player from twenty-first-century Seattle could have been the Renaissance artist’s model.

Since when did AK become a hippie?

I know, she does not seem like the hippies of my generation (b. 1960) - I guess they mean "Neo-hippie" because of the guitar playing, the yoga, the "free spirit" mentality, which did not serve her well with the PLE.

 

[SMK]

I have to wonder why Edda and Knox's aunt both told her to get out of the country as soon as Knox phoned. I wonder if it had anything to do with the first phone call Knox made, the one where nothing had happened ... the call that Knox has inexplicably erased from her memory. It's rather drastic for Edda to immediately take a leave of absence from teaching, hop on a plane and fly to Italy to get her daughter out of the country.

1. Most mothers would say "come home" to "my roommate was murdered".
2. Edda came when the police were "seeing her too much" and on the cusp of her arrest.
They did not tell her to leave the country "as soon as Knox phoned"; they advised her to do so when she told them the police were talking to her daily.

 

[dgfred]

Why not just say I was confused and badgered into accusing Patrick? Not so suspicious.

Why not just say my daughter accused Patrick because she was confused and badgered? Problem solved.

Don't take 2 weeks, don't take 3 years, etc.

 

[SMK]

Why not just say I was confused and badgered into accusing Patrick? Not so suspicious.

Why not just say my daughter accused Patrick because she was confused and badgered? Problem solved.

Don't take 2 weeks, don't take 3 years, etc.

They more or less DID say this.

 

[dgfred]

There is not justice if innocent people or people that have been convicted without evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

Thus I must ask what is your threshold for reasonable doubt?

Don't believe that is what happened in this case.

I guess it could be very similar to the judges/jurors threshold.

 

[SMK]

Don't believe that is what happened in this case.

I guess it could be very similar to the judges/jurors threshold.

My favorite definitions of the threshold from my days of studying philosophy of jurisprudence, from US and Canada:

Reasonable doubt is not mere possible doubt.

"It is that state of the case which, after the entire comparison and consideration of all the evidence leaves the minds of the jurors in that condition that they canot say they feel an abiding conviction to a moral certainty of the truth of the charge."

"A reasonable doubt is not an imaginary or frivolous doubt. It must not be based upon sympathy or prejudice. Rather, it is based on reason and common sense. It is logically derived from the evidence or absence of evidence.

"Even if you believe the accused is probably guilty or likely guilty, that is not sufficient. In those circumstances you must give the benefit of the doubt to the accused and acquit because the Crown has failed to satisfy you of the guilt of the accused beyond a reasonable doubt. On the other hand you must remember that it is virtually impossible to prove anything to an absolute certainty and the Crown is not required to do so. Such a standard of proof is impossibly high.

"In short if, based upon the evidence before the court, you are sure that the accused committed the offence you should convict since this demonstrates that you are satisfied of his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/R/ReasonableDoubt.aspx

 

[dgfred]

US and Canada legal 'reasonable doubt' is not the same as in Italian court.

:razz: Here's one for your collection so you don't send one back at me. :truce:

 

[SMK]

US and Canada legal 'reasonable doubt' is not the same as in Italian court.

:razz: Here's one for your collection so you don't send one back at me. :truce:

well, show me , pray, what ITALY's standard of reasonable doubt is? I was trying to Google, but only came up with this::razz::razz::razz:

The trial in the Umbrian college town of Perugia has dragged on just short of a year. As this week’s closing arguments showed once again, the case has very little to do with actual evidence and much to do with the ancient Italian code of saving face.

In closing arguments, Knox was described as a “Luciferina” and “a dirty-minded she-devil.” Preposterous, made-up sexual motives were ascribed to her. One prosecutor speculated before the jury what Knox may have said to Meredith Kercher before, he claimed, forcing an orgy that resulted in her death:
“You are always behaving like a little saint. Now we will show you. Now we will make you have sex.”
Nobody alleges that Knox said this to Kercher. But prosecutors asked the jury to imagine her saying such a thing.

http://www.businessinsider.com/henr...ial-for-murder-in-italy-2009-12#ixzz1U5TGxwb5

 

[SMK]

And this site shows the threshold for the burden of proof to be HIGHER in Italy::razz:

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art315.htm

Burden of Proof:

In Italy the "burden of proof" is extremely high, and this allows many criminals to go free. While this is obviously a serious matter in organised crime, it is also relevant in matters of lesser gravity. For example, the fact that a man is in possession of stolen property, whether automobiles, motor scooters or jewellery, may not be held against him to the extent that it would be in Britain, Australia, Canada or the United States, even though possession of stolen property is a criminal offence in Italy as elsewhere. The question of burden of proof also comes into play in rape trials (see below).

and this is not so good for Italy:

Presumption of Innocence: While this technically exists in Italy, in practice it is frequently overlooked entirely, especially in the investigations leading to trial. Some years ago, a company which sold legal *advertiser censored* (in digital media such as DVDs) via the internet was investigated because somebody suspected that it was selling child *advertiser censored* as well. The investigation itself was legal, but a number of customers were arrested based on an unsubstantiated suspicion that they had purchased the illicit material even though no company records or other evidence indicated this. Elsewhere, they might have been called in for questioning; in Italy police "SWAT" teams burst into their homes at six o'clock in the morning to search for the offending material (see Search and Seizure above). It is doubtful that an American or British judge would have summarily permitted such searches based on such a flimsy pretext.