Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[wasnt_me]

I don't see how you can know that, otto. As long as AK is seen as a lone American railroaded by a foreign court, somebody will have his checkbook open to pay her for interviews and/or a book. I'm sure it isn't their primary concern, but the Kerchers may yet see some money from those judgments.

My two cents is that the lawyer might see the win of that kind of money also as "symbolic," seeing as more clients will choose him for his ability to win that much money.

 

[wasnt_me]

I am not going to pretend to be a DNA expert but I know that when they have a full DNA profile that 'possible' is not part of the equation. It is either Meredith's or it isn't.

I'm gonna attempt to explain this.

The experts are saying that they were not there at the original test. They did not perform the original test. They could not recreate the test. Though they read the results and think that it is completely wrong, it is always possible that MK's profile was found. They just do not see any scientific, competent, and retraceable way that actually happened, given the information that they analyzed.

For example, they would probably say it's "possible" that big foot exists. Is that probable? Highly unlikely.

This is the precise argument the other side uses when the experts say they cannot rule out contimination. Here, though, the experts have a long list of proof of possible contamination.

Well the experts will not "rule out" that it might be MK's DNA. Here, they see no possible way Stephanoni gathered that from the evidence presented.

That's just what it is. Believe it or not.

 

[wasnt_me]

I shouldn't have let myself get baited into talking about that, please pretend I didn't mention it - I'd rather not have someone accuse me of playing the victim card.

I think that's precisely what others are doing in reference to MK and her lawyer, though, when they lash out at others for the mere mention of the money.

 

[Nova]

Erm i can assure you that i am not new to the case...with being English that would be kind of hard to be honest

As for the claims...what I dont understand is IF she was slapped ( which i dont personally believe she was) the logical idea would been to get her lawyer there immediately and photo any bruises immediately for proof and then put a complaint in immediately. As for her parents i think they have there own agenda for saying what they did as its far easier to blame the horrible foreigners than accept that her beloved daughter is simply a liar and for that matter probably far worse.

MOO

To my knowledge, AK has never claimed she was bruised. Her point was that she was startled by the head slap, not that she was injured or even in much pain.

It's easy to shrug off AK's account. But we know Patrick Lumumba was beaten by PLE; we know Frank the blogger was accosted and roughed up.

How many incidents do we need before we admit that members of PLE have anger management issues? Personally, I've heard enough. I believe Amanda about the head slap; but I believe she was shocked not wounded.

 

[Nova]

SMK notice in what you quoted, and BBM :
"Both Perugia’s Madonnas have pale, heart-shaped faces, tiny pert noses, light distant eyes, small perfect mouths. Amanda Knox bears an uncanny resemblance to both of them. The hippie soccer player from twenty-first-century Seattle could have been the Renaissance artist’s model.

Since when did AK become a hippie?

Good point. Since when did anyone become a hippie after 1969?

 

[Nova]

Um, your first statement is totally contrary to reality. The US courts weight evidence and often convict on a preponderance of evidence, rather than on one piece of evidence.

I really don't know where these ridiculous ideas about the American Justice system are coming from (not targeting you with this bit fred, but posters in general), but if they have something to do with that stupid Anthony trial, please ignore it, as Florida is a nation unto itself when it comes to the laws and courts. Is the US system flawed? Yes. But no more so than European systems.

All that aside, preponderance of evidence and weighting of evidence are two of the most important of many factors that lead up to deciding on the presence or lack of reasonable doubt, not something that you replace it with.

I know what you mean, SV, but "preponderance of evidence" has a specific legal meaning in the U.S. It is the standard burden in a civil trial and is generally said to mean "more than 50%" of the evidence.

But you are correct that, in theory, a jury (civil or criminal) is to weigh the totality of the evidence, not just whether a specific knife has DNA.

 

[Nova]

OMG, I did not say one word about money in my post and there Otto goes saying my statement was part of the "clear" statements that "we" think the lawyers are money grubbers. I don't understand why anyone bothers directly rebutting lies.

I have resolved to stop.

 

[SkewedView]

Darn, I eagerly await your response upon your return.

Especially after seeing: contrary to reality, ridiculous, naive, innocents paying the price, etc in your last couple of post.

Excuse me, but the naive and innocents comment was about an article someone else posted (involving something that is OT, at that), and the portion of my post with the word ridiculous was a general comment, not targeting you, as I made sure to point out. Please try to read what people are saying before calling them out.

As for the contrary to reality - what I described is how the American Justice System works. Period. Just because a few media-hyped cases go differently is no reason to accuse an entire nation of abdicating its responsibility to Justice. You made an extraordinary claim, without anything to back it up, and I'm calling you on it. Show me proof that in American courts, cases are regularly tossed with a single piece of evidence even though there is plenty of other evidence to indicate guilt. I believe that you will find that the vast majority of cases involving acquittals following tossed single pieces of evidence are one where there was no other good evidence involved, or when the item has been found through new analysis to point to a different person as the perpetrator.

You also made a claim about the way the Italian system works that made no sense, as I indicated - in criminal trials, preponderance of evidence and weight of evidence are factors leading up to a final decision of whether or not there is reasonable doubt. The two are not mutually exclusive, and indeed are, in any sane criminal justice system, inseparable from each other. The Italian System, for all of its flaws, is not insane by any means.


ETA: Sorry, meant totality of evidence in these posts, not preponderance. Thank you for pointing that out, Nova. My bad.

 

[SkewedView]

BBM

Which could explain, in part at least, the 50% overturn rate on convictions in Italy during the appeal process.

It should be noted that the 50 percent figure is not for overturns of convictions, but for overturning of verdicts, both guilty and not guilty, due to the fact that prosecutors and victims can appeal verdicts as well as the defendants.

An example of this is a recent case where a SWAT type team was initially deemed not guilty of brutality, destruction of evidence, other coverup actions etc against a group of G8 protesters, and then in appeal they were found guilty (final appeal still pending, of course).

 

[sherlockh]

It should be noted that the 50 percent figure is not for overturns of convictions, but for overturning of verdicts, both guilty and not guilty, due to the fact that prosecutors and victims can appeal verdicts as well as the defendants.

An example of this is a recent case where a SWAT type team was initially deemed not guilty of brutality, destruction of evidence, other coverup actions etc against a group of G8 protesters, and then in appeal they were found guilty (final appeal still pending, of course).

I read half of the convictions are changed after appeal. Or do we mean the same? For example, RG's sentence was changed after appeal.

Half of all appeals launched in Italy result in a change of some sort from the original verdict or sentence. Even in this case, Rudy Guede, convicted in a fast-track trial for his role in Kercher’s murder, successfully appealed his 30-year sentence, which was cut to 16 years last December.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/12/11/amanda-knoxs-appeal-will-she-go-free.html

 

[SMK]

I read half of the convictions are changed after appeal. Or do we mean the same? For example, RG's sentence was changed after appeal.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/12/11/amanda-knoxs-appeal-will-she-go-free.html

I think you and SV are saying the same: Half are overturned, whether acquittal or conviction.

 

[Nova]

I think you and SV are saying the same: Half are overturned, whether acquittal or conviction.

I don't think so. sherlockh's link refers to a 50% rate of "change in verdict or sentence." (Emphasis added.) The link then goes on to cite RG as an example of such a change; we know RG's verdict wasn't overturned, though his sentence was reduced.

Changing sentences is quite different from overturning verdicts.

My thanks to both SV and sherlockh. Thinking like an American, I originally thought only in turns of guilty verdicts reversed (since the prosecution can't appeal a verdict in the U.S.).

But now I am reminded that an Italian verdict can be reversed in either direction.

And if sherlockh's link is correct, the 50% rate doesn't just refer to verdicts.

 

[SMK]

I don't think so. sherlockh's link refers to a 50% rate of "change in verdict or sentence." (Emphasis added.) The link then goes on to cite RG as an example of such a change; we know RG's verdict wasn't overturned, though his sentence was reduced.

Changing sentences is quite different from overturning verdicts.

My thanks to both SV and sherlockh. Thinking like an American, I originally thought only in turns of guilty verdicts reversed (since the prosecution can't appeal a verdict in the U.S.).

But now I am reminded that an Italian verdict can be reversed in either direction.

And if sherlockh's link is correct, the 50% rate doesn't just refer to verdicts.

OK, I see, I wasn't paying close enough attention. My apologies.

So this 50% statistic could include Knox and Sollecito receiving life sentences, then? :waitasec:

 

[otto]

To my knowledge, AK has never claimed she was bruised. Her point was that she was startled by the head slap, not that she was injured or even in much pain.

It's easy to shrug off AK's account. But we know Patrick Lumumba was beaten by PLE; we know Frank the blogger was accosted and roughed up.

How many incidents do we need before we admit that members of PLE have anger management issues? Personally, I've heard enough. I believe Amanda about the head slap; but I believe she was shocked not wounded.

Patrick wasn't roughed up. There is one article suggesting that he was, but that same article also contained incorrect information about Knox. If you accept the false information about Patrick, you have to accept the incorrect information about Knox. Which should it be?

Frank was not roughed up. When he and many others got too close to the Kercher family. He, and others, were cleared out to protect the Kerchers.

If you disagree, and have information that Patrick and an Italian blogger were roughed up, please provide media links.

 

[SMK]

Patrick wasn't roughed up. There is one article suggesting that he was, but that same article also contained incorrect information about Knox. If you accept the false information about Patrick, you have to accept the incorrect information about Knox. Which should it be?

Frank was not roughed up. When he and many others got too close to the Kercher family. He, and others, were cleared out to protect the Kerchers.

If you disagree, and have information that Patrick and an Italian blogger were roughed up, please provide media links.

Here’s the letter from the prestigious Committee to Protect Journalists:

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2...ns-italian-journalists-over-amanda-knox-case/

http://www.cpj.org/2011/04/journalists-threatened-for-reporting-on-murder-cas.php

They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. ...
At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door. He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.
"They were wearing normal clothes and carrying guns," he says. "I thought it must be some sort of armed gang about to kill me. I was terrified.
"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."
He was greeted outside by a convoy of seven police cars, sirens blazing, and driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation.
"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'
"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I was scared and humiliated. Then, after a couple of hours one of them suggested they show me a picture of 'the dead girl' to get me to confess.
"It might sound naive, but it was only then that I made the connection between Meredith's death and my arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I killed Meredith?'
"They said, 'Oh, so now you've remembered' and told me that if I confessed I'd only get half the 30-year sentence."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ls-framed-Merediths-murder.html#ixzz1U79tiGb6

 

[otto]

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2...ns-italian-journalists-over-amanda-knox-case/

http://www.cpj.org/2011/04/journalists-threatened-for-reporting-on-murder-cas.php

Sure, but where is the link to information that Patrick was roughed up?

Frank posted his video about being roughed up, and we know that it was at a time when he was jostling with a video camera, along with others, getting too close to the victim's family. He was out of line in that situation. Is there any other situation where he claims he was roughed up? By the way, isn't Frank a blogger ... not a journalist?

 

[SMK]

Sure, but where is the link to information that Patrick was roughed up?

Frank posted his video about being roughed up, and we know that it was at a time when he was jostling with a video camera, along with others, getting too close to the victim's family. He was out of line in that situation. Is there any other situation where he claims he was roughed up? By the way, isn't Frank a blogger ... not a journalist?

I will bring the full post foreward, I added, but it was loading slowly.....better yet, please see my full post above your own RE Lumbumba.....

 

[SMK]

They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. ...
At 6.30am on Tuesday, November 6, the bell to his fourth-floor flat in the town buzzed insistently and a woman's voice outside demanded he opened the door. He had barely had time to do so when the woman, assisted by, Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others, barged their way in.
"They were wearing normal clothes and carrying guns," he says. "I thought it must be some sort of armed gang about to kill me. I was terrified.
"They hit me over the head and yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put handcuffs on me and shoved me out of the door, as Aleksandra pulled Davide away, screaming."
He was greeted outside by a convoy of seven police cars, sirens blazing, and driven to Perugia's police station, where he was subjected to a ten-hour interrogation.
"I was questioned by five men and women, some of whom punched and kicked me," he claims. "They forced me on my knees against the wall and said I should be in America where I would be given the electric chair for my crime. All they kept saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'
"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I was scared and humiliated. Then, after a couple of hours one of them suggested they show me a picture of 'the dead girl' to get me to confess.
"It might sound naive, but it was only then that I made the connection between Meredith's death and my arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I killed Meredith?'
"They said, 'Oh, so now you've remembered' and told me that if I confessed I'd only get half the 30-year sentence."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1U79tiGb6

 

[otto]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1U79tiGb6

That is the article I assumed Nova was referencing. Let's have a look at all the other info in that article and decide whether we're going to accept the contents of this article. For example:

"For four weeks he had quietly tolerated her wild mood swings, crass sexual innuendo and complete unwillingness to do any work so terminating her employment was, on the face of it, a wise decision.

...

Now, in an exclusive interview with The Mail on Sunday, Patrick reveals his feelings towards the infamous "Foxy Knoxy", and tells how the seemingly quintessential American turned into a tormented monster eaten up by anger towards both himself and Meredith.

"She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge," he says. "By the end, she hated me. But I don't even think she's evil.

To be evil you have to have a soul. "Amanda doesn't. She's empty; dead inside. She's the ultimate actress, able to switch her emotions on and off in an instant. I don't believe a word she says. Everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie. But those lies have stained me for ever."

Shall we accept everything written in the article, or none of it? Accepting only the bits that suit us doesn't seem quite right.

Frank the blogger wasn't beaten either.

 

[SMK]

That is the article I assumed Nova was referencing. Let's have a look at all the other info in that article and decide whether we're going to accept the contents of this article. For example:

"For four weeks he had quietly tolerated her wild mood swings, crass sexual innuendo and complete unwillingness to do any work so terminating her employment was, on the face of it, a wise decision.

...

Now, in an exclusive interview with The Mail on Sunday, Patrick reveals his feelings towards the infamous "Foxy Knoxy", and tells how the seemingly quintessential American turned into a tormented monster eaten up by anger towards both himself and Meredith.

"She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge," he says. "By the end, she hated me. But I don't even think she's evil.

To be evil you have to have a soul. "Amanda doesn't. She's empty; dead inside. She's the ultimate actress, able to switch her emotions on and off in an instant. I don't believe a word she says. Everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie. But those lies have stained me for ever."

Shall we accept everything written in the article, or none of it? Accepting only the bits that suit us doesn't seem quite right.

Frank the blogger wasn't beaten either.

I accept that PL feels this to be true of Amanda . What is the problem?? :waitasec: