Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #20

[Malkmus]

It is not a fact. You are just speculating based on one trace of DNA which I admit proves he touched the purse. He obviously had blood on his hands when he touched it. If he had gone through the purse there would have been more traces, if he had hold the purse upside down there would have been more traces, where are his bloody shoe prints showing he went back and forth doing these things?, where is the blood on the phones that he grabbed with his bloody hands? How did he do all those things in the 1 or 2 minutes till he was heard running away?

I agree. It just doesn't fit

His DNA was on the zipper. None was found belonging to AK/RS. Yet they were the ones charged with theft. Massei was Obviously biased.

 

[Malkmus]

There is only one report of Patrick claiming he was mistreated and that is the Dailymail article that has been discussed here often. The entire article is filled with untruths.

I'm not somewhere where I can link it, but there was an interview with Patrick just last week where he stated he was "beaten" by PLE. So that makes two sources claiming he was to zero from him claiming he wasn't.

 

[sherlockh]

Making this quick cause I'm in my iPhone, buy the Amanda "demanding to be heard a second time" is another myth started on pmf. She had no reason to be heard a second time, it was PLE who needed her to mar a Statement a second time as a suspect. If you read her note it makes no mention of meeting Patrick.

Ok, my bad. So we have:

1:45 - Coerced statement after a few hours of gruesome questioning by a pack of lying and head hitting policemen.
5:45 - Voluntary statement in response to a request by the police.
Written note - Voluntary statement made by own request.

Did I get it right this time?

 

[Footwarrior]

She shouldn't lie about anybody slapping her head. Try telling the truth for a change. What has being a foreigner or even American have to do with anything? She lied from start to finish. She accused Patrick 3 times before she appeared in front of the judge. Once within 2 hours of police questioning, 2nd time a few hours later because she demanded to be heard again and came up with a lot more detail about Patrick, 3rd time on a piece of paper. Then she decided not to speak in front of the judge even when she already told her mother Patrick was innocent. There is no excuse for that.

Amanda had spent every night since the murder was discovered at the police station. She was allowed to leave in the pre dawn hours only to be called back before noon the next day. The night of Nov. 4, a police bug recorded Amanda complaining that she was only getting two or three hours of fitful sleep a night.

On Nov. 5, Amanda spent a full day in class at the university. When her interrogation started shortly after 10:30 pm she was already in a sleep deprived state. She signed a statement in Italian at 1:45 am and a second statement in Italian at 5:45 am. It wasn't a tea and biscuits party, it was a tag team effort with 12 police officers experienced at extracting confessions from suspects. That morning she was formally arrested. Her handwritten statement in English was made sometime after noon on Nov. 6.

The Perugia police used techniques known to generate false confessions. They lied to Amanda, telling her that they had video evidence proving she went to the cottage the night of the murder. They told her that Raffaele was also saying she left. Then they suggested she had amnesia and told her to imagine how it happened. They also suggested Lumumba was involved by grilling her about the text message she sent.

After Amanda was arrested, she was kept in solitary. She met her lawyer for the first time when she was taken in front of the judge.

 

[Malkmus]

Ok, my bad. So we have:

1:45 - Coerced statement after a few hours of gruesome questioning by a pack of lying and head hitting policemen.
5:45 - Voluntary statement in response to a request by the police.
Written note - Voluntary statement made by own request.

Did I get it right this time?

Yes that's correct.

 

[otto]

otto,

I agree that the article is not trustworthy. However, it is odd that Patrick has not gone after the Daily Mail, suggesting perhaps that they have a record of what he said. Even if we ignore his (real or made-up) allegation, PLE still closed his bar for several months. It would be interesting to know the relative timing of his bar reopening and when he decided to bring the civil suit.

If Patrick had to chase down everyone that made false statements about him in the news or internet, including this website, he would still be wasting his time on it four years later. Surely he has better things to do with his life.

 

[otto]

He knows what happens if he says he was mistreated - he'd be up for slander, just like AK is for saying she was slapped on the back of the head.

If he was mistreated, he would have a case against the police. If he wasn't mistreated and said that he was, then he would be charged with slander.

 

[SunD]

If he was mistreated, he would have a case against the police. If he wasn't mistreated and said that he was, then he would be charged with slander.

That is about the most idealistic and rose colored view of things I think I've ever heard. If he was mistreated, it would be Patrick's word against the police. Ya, see how that works out.<modsnip>

 

[otto]

That is about the most idealistic and rose colored view of things I think I've ever heard. If he was mistreated, it would be Patrick's word against the police. Ya, see how that works out. <modsnip>.

I haven't been wrong about everything connected with this murder. Most importantly, I have a clear understanding of who was the victim and who are the convicted murderers.

To presume that police would deny any actions they took is to presume that justice is corrupt. I don't adhere to that belief.

 

[ziggy]

If you take nothing else away from this case, take the advice to NEVER talk to LE without an attorney and don't color those who lawyer up with a cloak of guilt. Some people are quirky or irritating and their actions can be twisted into something sinister - just get a lawyer!!!

 

[Rolfe]

To presume that police would deny any actions they took is to presume that justice is corrupt. I don't adhere to that belief.

<modsnip>. Of course not all justice is corrupt. Not all policemen or investigators or prosecution are corrupt. Indeed, I'm happy to agree it's a minority. Worldwide, or in one particular country, just how small a minority, who can say?

However, it is indisputable that corrupt police and investigators and prosecutors do exist. This has been proven in many many cases. Take a look at the Birmingham Six affair just for a start. Thus, official corruption can never be ruled out a priori.

If there is evidence suggesting possible official corruption, that must be assessed on its merits just as any other evidence is assessed. To deny the very possibility is unsceptical and indeed irrational. And it seems to me there is plenty evidence suggesting of official bias possibly amounting to corruption in this case.

 

[SMK]

Hope they will aggressively attack evidence and forensics which are faulty, and not just go into this character question:

Amanda Knox Trial: Defense Lawyer Compares Knox To Jessica Rabbit

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/27/amanda-knox-trial-defense_n_982752.html

addendum: Got these Nadeau tweets from JREF:

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno says Guede had met #amandaknox but not #sollecito.
19 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno tells jury that prosecution failed in demonstrating a connection between #amandaknox #sollecito and #rudyguede.
20 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno trying to justify calling Alessi the babykiller to the stand, says felt judicial obligation after he contacted her. #amandaknox
23 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Dating the time of death has been difficult because of numerous errors by police, so Bongiorno says the phone records are key. #amandaknox
29 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno talking about the "black box" in this case, how #meredithkercher phone records do date the time of death. #amandaknox
31 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
@
@morsels I realize that, but court reporting is mind-numbing.
31 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Blood in basement apartment was frm a wounded cat, not connected to murder. this has always been a "pet" argument for Bongiorno. #amandaknox
42 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
"Sangue di gatto" makes a return from the first trial. The cat did it? #amandaknox
44 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno implies the investigation was guided by suspicion of suspects, not by analysis of evidence. #amandaknox
46 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno finished with the DNA part of her closing arguments. Moves 2 murder dynamics & how knife is not murder weapon. #amandaknox
48 minutes ago
»

andreavogt Andrea Vogt
by BLNadeau
Bongiorno showing crime scene video of forensic techs and pointing out sloppy handling. #amandaknox
56 minutes ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno back 2 bra clasp. Obvious key to #sollecito 's freedom and she has intertwined it into every aspect of closing argum. #amandaknox
1 hour ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno: If #amandaknox or #sollecito were in the room there would be a trace. They weren't there.
1 hour ago
»

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno: Why isn't there a footprint of #amandaknox and #sollecito in the murder room?
1 hour ago

 

[SMK]

More tweets from Nadeau taken from Twitter:

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Lunch break in #amandknox until 3pm. This judge likes long lunches.
10 minutes ago

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno calls this case a grave error, gives jury the opportunity to right a wrong, tells them to absolve #amandaknox and #sollecito
10 minutes ago

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno says the prosec said "they killed for nothing" in fact, she says, "they did nothing. " #amandaknox
11 minutes ago

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno says the prosec said "they killed for nothing" in fact, she says, "they did nothing. "
12 minutes ago

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno cries racial discrimination in Lumumba/Guede aspect of this case. #amandaknox
12 minutes ago

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno dances dangerously close to race issue that made headlines when Guede was arrested: 1 "nero" for another. #amandaknox
14 minutes ago

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno: sarcastically implies according to prosecution, the three met in the murder room, not ideal spot for meeting ppl. #amandaknox
15 minutes ago

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno says Guede had met #amandaknox but not #sollecito.
17 minutes ago

BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Bongiorno tells jury that prosecution failed in demonstrating a connection between #amandaknox #sollecito and #rudyguede.
18 minutes ago

 

[SMK]

<modsnip>. Of course not all justice is corrupt. Not all policemen or investigators or prosecution are corrupt. Indeed, I'm happy to agree it's a minority. Worldwide, or in one particular country, just how small a minority, who can say?

However, it is indisputable that corrupt police and investigators and prosecutors do exist. This has been proven in many many cases. Take a look at the Birmingham Six affair just for a start. Thus, official corruption can never be ruled out a priori.

If there is evidence suggesting possible official corruption, that must be assessed on its merits just as any other evidence is assessed. To deny the very possibility is unsceptical and indeed irrational. And it seems to me there is plenty evidence suggesting of official bias possibly amounting to corruption in this case.

Of course. This should go without saying, but am glad you stated it so well. To have the idea that human justice cannot be corrupted is to be willfully blind.

 

[SMK]

[video=youtube;MUORWkLKRBQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUORWkLKRBQ&feature=player_embedded[/video]

There was "no trace" of either Amanda Knox or her former Italian boyfriend in the room where Meredith Kercher was murdered, a court hearing their appeal was told on Tuesday.

Knox, who was depicted as a witch at the previous hearing, was more like Jessica Rabbit in the 1988 animated film Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, according to one of her lawyers. "She can be seen as a man-eater. But in fact she was a faithful woman in love," said the first defence lawyer to sum up before the judges and jury who will decide if Knox and her ex-boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, are freed.

Giulia Bongiorno, counsel for Sollecito, quoted the cartoon vamp: "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way." And jabbing a finger at the prosecutors, she said: "They drew her that way."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/27/amanda-knox-faithful-woman-lawyer

Yet, said Bongiorno, "in the room of the crime, there are no traces of either Amanda or Raffaele. This is the absolute truth". The only alleged evidence was a trace of Sollecito's DNA on Kercher's bra clasp, and that was evidence "torn apart by the experts' report".

In June, two Rome university professors appointed by the court to review the forensic findings had reported the DNA could have got there by contamination. The bra clasp had laid at the scene of the crime for more than six weeks.

The experts also reported that DNA attributed to Kercher on the alleged murder weapon was not necessarily hers. The knife bore signs that it had been handled by Sollecito and Knox, but was in the young Italian's kitchen and likely therefore to have been handled by both.

As a result of the experts' report, Bongiorno said: "Nothing connects Raffaele Sollecito to this crime &#8230; The few indications were to do with Amanda Knox and have been transferred to him. There are people who acquire a family along with a girlfriend. He acquired a crime." But, added his lawyer, there was "nothing on Amanda either".

 

[iluvmua]

How does anyone who supports Amanda explain all of the lies she told? She implicated an innocent man in a murder.

The only person I support is Meredith.

 

[Footwarrior]

How does anyone who supports Amanda explain all of the lies she told? She implicated an innocent man in a murder.

Watch Frontline: The Confessions and you should be able to understand. In that case, the police extracted 4 false confessions from US Navy sailors. Amanda was subjected to the same police interrogation techniques used in that case.

You may also want to watch this video where Saul Kassin explains False Confessions.

 

[SMK]

How does anyone who supports Amanda explain all of the lies she told? She implicated an innocent man in a murder.

The only person I support is Meredith.

I support Amanda Knox fully. Footwarrior has left an excellent post on false confessions. Knox was coerced and intimidated. It is ILE's responsibility for detaining Mr. Lumbada.

 

[Monzoo]

How does anyone who supports Amanda explain all of the lies she told? She implicated an innocent man in a murder.

The only person I support is Meredith.

The only "lies" seem to be the statements given to the police. Here is the text (translated to English) of these two statements. (can be downloaded from here.)

1:45 am:

&#8220;In order to complete what has been retailed before by means of precedent declarations made at this Office, I wish to clarify that I know and see other people who have also come to my house sometimes and who have also met Meredith and of whom I will provide the relevant mobile numbers ----------------------------------------------------
One of these people is Patrik, a colored citizen who is about 1,70-1,75 cm tall, with braids, owner of the pub &#8220;Le Chic&#8221; located in Via Alessi and I know that he lives in the area near the roundabout of Porta Pesa. Tel. 393387195723, pub where I work twice a week on Mondays and on Thursdays, from 22.00 until about 2.00. -----------------------------------------------
Last Thursday 1st November, day on which I usually work, while I was in the apartment of my boyfriend Raffaele, at about 20.30 I received a message from Patrick on my mobile, telling me that that evening the pub would remain closed because there were no people, therefore I didn&#8217;t have to go to work. ----------------------------------------------------------------
I replied to the message saying that we would meet immediately, therefore I went out telling my boyfriend that I had to go to work. I wish to state first that in the afternoon I had smoked a joint with Raffaele, therefore I felt confused because I do not usually make use of narcotics nor harder drugs. -------------------------------------------------------
I met Patrick soon after at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana and we went home. I do not remember if Meredith was already there or if she came later. I find it difficult to remember those moments but Patrick had sex with Meredith with whom he was infatuated but I do not remember well if Meredith had been threatened before. I vaguely remember that he killed her.

5:45 am:

I wish to relate spontaneously what happened because these events have deeply bothered me and I am really afraid of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub called &#8220;Le Chic&#8221; located in Via Alessi where I work periodically. I met him in the evening of November 1st 2007, after sending him a reply message saying &#8220;I will see you&#8221;. We met soon after at about 21.00 at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana. We went to my apartment in Via della Pergola n. 7. I do not clearly remember if Meredith was already at home or if she came later, what I can say is that Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith&#8217;s room, while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I cannot remember how long they stayed together in the room but I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and as I was scared I plugged up my hears. Then I do not remember anything, I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard some thuds too because I was upset, but I imagined what could have happened.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have met Patrick this morning, in front of the Università Per Stranieri and he has asked me some questions, to be more accurate he wanted to know what the Policemen had asked me. I think he has also asked me if I wanted to see some journalists, maybe in order to know if I knew anything about Meredith&#8217;s death.- I am not sure if Raffaele was there as well that night but I clearly remember that I woke up at my boyfriend&#8217;s home, in his bed and that I came back home in the morning when I found the door of the apartment open. When I woke up in the morning of November 2nd I was in bed with my boyfriend.------------------------------------
It is acknowledged that KNOX repeatedly brings her hands on her head and shakes it.

These were both written in Italian -- Knox was not fluent in the language at that point. By 1:00 pm, she had written a letter to LE saying that her earlier statements were not reliable.

On the basis of these statements, LE arrested Patrick, kept him in jail for two weeks despite the fact that he had an alibi witness, and kept hs business closed for two months as a "crime scene."

Is Amanda responsible for the way ILE treated PL? I personally blame ILE.

Edited to add: I also want to note that the text message mentioned in these statements was literally "See you later" translated into Italian. "See you later" is recognized by most Americans as another way to say goodbye, but would be translated in Italian to mean that a later meeting was intended to take place. It seems obvious that AK would intend the American meaning. Yet in these statements purportedly written by her, she refers to them by the badly translated meaning. To me, this shows obvious authorship by someone other than AK.

 

[SMK]

MEREDITH&#8217;S BODY EXPOSED
Posted: September 26, 2011 by perugiashock in appeal trial amanda knox
Horror in the Courtroom

http://perugiashock.com/2011/09/26/merediths-body-exposed/