Metro Detroit ME (Dr. Werner Spitz) Will Testify At Casey Trial

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chicklet said:
I watched the video interview with him and he comes across far more professional than the woman medical examiner did. I was very turned off by the way she behaved when she left the stand. She really came across as if she was more concerned about congratulating herself than testifying professionally. The man in the video comes across as more knowledgeable and professional...and he doesn't come across as having a strong personal opinion on the case where the woman did.
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oh you think the woman had a strong opinion?


not surprising since that pretty much defines her job

she is PAID to have an opinion.
 
joypath said:
:twocents: He's describing the TECHNIQUE of concentrating the microscopic "solids" that may exist in ANY fluid. In his example, he is referring to POOL H2O. The sample of pool water TAKEN from the suspect pool ON or ABOUT the estimated time of death COULD show the diatoms which MIGHT have been present in the victim's remains.

Th SAME technique (BUT without the addition of the pool H2O) c\would be applied to the victim's body fluids, if present, and to macerated remains. (that in this case would be bones).

Both described techniques require that the examiner evaluate the sediment (solids on th bottom of the test tube) under a microscope.

Final point of the evaluation would be the comparison of the diatoms IF present in the victim's exemplar to those of the H2O sample. IF there's a match of diatoms, THEN the point of presumed drowning has been identified and IF there are diatoms present within the victim, then drowning MUST be considered as a COD and then further evaluation/discussion would be valid regarding MOD.

:twocents: While not meant to be a lecture, it IS meant to be an example of ONE point to illuminate folks on the steps involved by the clinicians in the field of pathology, be it anatomical, clinical or forensic.
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Do you have links for this information?

Thanks,

Salem
 
chicklet said:
A short while ago I found and read Dr. G's autopsy report. It really wasn't entirely clear, IMO exactly how the duct tape was placed. What WAS clear, however, was the fact that ZERO drugs (meaning NO chloroform whatsoever) was found in the toxicology report. That makes all chloroform tie ins completely irrelevant to the case. Caylee was NOT knocked out with chloroform according to the autopsy.
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eh...
 
chicklet said:
A short while ago I found and read Dr. G's autopsy report. It really wasn't entirely clear, IMO exactly how the duct tape was placed. What WAS clear, however, was the fact that ZERO drugs (meaning NO chloroform whatsoever) was found in the toxicology report. That makes all chloroform tie ins completely irrelevant to the case. Caylee was NOT knocked out with chloroform according to the autopsy.
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Dr. G clarified on re-direct that ANY substance administered immediately prior to Caylee's death would not be expected to show up on ANY toxicological tests as they only had bone marrow to test since ICA didn't bother to report her daughter missing for 31-days........so chloroform CAN NOT be eliminated as being a part of this case; however, I too would not need the chloroform evidence to convict. Duct tape on a 2 year old is child abuse in any sense of the word and it was on Caylee regardless of where you want to believe and how you want to believe it was applied. As Dr. G said, there is no reason to duct tape a living or dead child (not verbatim). Dr. Werner's testimony will be very entertaining, but I don't believe it will stand up to Dr. G. I don't believe the jury will find him more credible than her. She had no dog in this fight, he is a paid defense expert - who will say anything to collect a paycheck IMO.
 
Gma Kat said:
Dr. G clarified on re-direct that ANY substance administered immediately prior to Caylee's death would not be expected to show up on ANY toxicological tests as they only had bone marrow to test since ICA didn't bother to report her daughter missing for 31-days........so chloroform CAN NOT be eliminated as being a part of this case; however, I too would not need the chloroform evidence to convict. Duct tape on a 2 year old is child abuse in any sense of the word and it was on Caylee regardless of where you want to believe and how you want to believe it was applied. As Dr. G said, there is no reason to duct tape a living or dead child (not verbatim). Dr. Werner's testimony will be very entertaining, but I don't believe it will stand up to Dr. G. I don't believe the jury will find him more credible than her. She had no dog in this fight, he is a paid defense expert - who will say anything to collect a paycheck IMO.
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ITA. And it was pointed out that chlorform evaporates, meaning it wouldn't be there anyway with her remains. The only reason it showed up in Casey's car was because there was so much of it. And no hurricane, water, animals or any other environmental things happened in that car either. I'm sure if there was chlorform it evaporated or the environmental conditions ensured it wouldn't be found six months down the road when Caylee was just a skeleton. But no, chloroform is not needed for Casey to be convicted. There is no way duct tape EVER accidently gets on anything, especially the face of a two year old child. And it would not be loose if put a living child's face before death. The hair helped it stay there, and she's two, she wouldn't have been able to pull it off. Duct tape sticks like heck and does not come off easily. My stepdaughter makes items out of duct tape, and they would fall apart if the duct tape wasn't so sticky.
 
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chicklet said:
Here is the problem with the claim that Caylee was killed by duct tape covering her mouth and nose...the tape would have fallen off and NOT been attached to the skull. I did get to look at the autopsy and the tape was actually attached to bone with the adhesive. It would have come loose if it had of been taped to flesh.
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BBM


How did you get to look at the autopsy? IIRC the testimony in court was that the adhesive from the tape had "sloughed" towards the ends of the tape. The tape was still stuck to hair and acted somewhat as a sling to hold hte mandible in place - along with that was roots and plant growth that had grown up and through the mandible and skull that also helped hold it in place.
 
chicklet said:
Here is the problem with the claim that Caylee was killed by duct tape covering her mouth and nose...the tape would have fallen off and NOT been attached to the skull. I did get to look at the autopsy and the tape was actually attached to bone with the adhesive. It would have come loose if it had of been taped to flesh.
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I see this as exactly the opposite respectfully. If the tape was placed on Caylee after her decomposition the tape would be stuck to her skull. If it was placed on her face while she had supporting exterior structure i.e. skin and the cartilage of her nose, once those structure degraded and slipped, the tape was left stuck to the only thing left the hair. It then slid down. If her mandible had not been held in place before decomposition it would not still be in tact.

That is what the good doctors represented to us in sworn testimony.
 
Gma Kat said:
Dr. G clarified on re-direct that ANY substance administered immediately prior to Caylee's death would not be expected to show up on ANY toxicological tests as they only had bone marrow to test since ICA didn't bother to report her daughter missing for 31-days........so chloroform CAN NOT be eliminated as being a part of this case; however, I too would not need the chloroform evidence to convict. Duct tape on a 2 year old is child abuse in any sense of the word and it was on Caylee regardless of where you want to believe and how you want to believe it was applied. As Dr. G said, there is no reason to duct tape a living or dead child (not verbatim). Dr. Werner's testimony will be very entertaining, but I don't believe it will stand up to Dr. G. I don't believe the jury will find him more credible than her. She had no dog in this fight, he is a paid defense expert - who will say anything to collect a paycheck IMO.
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But pretty much everyone who thinks KC is guilty of murder is accusing her of "Zanny the Nanny" being drugs and the trunk. NO DRUGS whatsoever showed up in the toxicology report...not prescription drugs, not illegal drugs, not manufactured drugs, not over the counter drugs...nothing. That blows the claim that KC is guilty of abuse right out of the water. There were also NO signs of any physical abuse. On top of that, the only person who can be proven to have possession of the duct tape is GA, where it is shown next to him in a photograph where he was using it. GA had keys to the car KC normally used and there is a lot of evidence that shows KC was not using the car for a substantial period of time while Caylee was missing. There are more holes in the state's case than there is in swiss cheese.
 
grandmaj said:
I see this as exactly the opposite respectfully. If the tape was placed on Caylee after her decomposition the tape would be stuck to her skull. If it was placed on her face while she had supporting exterior structure i.e. skin and the cartilage of her nose, once those structure degraded and slipped, the tape was left stuck to the only thing left the hair. It then slid down. If her mandible had not been held in place before decomposition it would not still be in tact.

That is what the good doctors represented to us in sworn testimony.
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Originally I believed that the tape was not stuck to any part of the skull at all, but in the autopsy report it claims that it actually WAS stuck to both the hair and the mandible. It's just not clear in the report of the exact location or how much was stuck onto the skull. Suffice to say...after reading the autopsy report I am more convinced than ever that the tape was NOT the cause of death.
 
chicklet said:
But pretty much everyone who thinks KC is guilty of murder is accusing her of "Zanny the Nanny" being drugs and the trunk. NO DRUGS whatsoever showed up in the toxicology report...not prescription drugs, not illegal drugs, not manufactured drugs, not over the counter drugs...nothing. That blows the claim that KC is guilty of abuse right out of the water. There were also NO signs of any physical abuse. On top of that, the only person who can be proven to have possession of the duct tape is GA, where it is shown next to him in a photograph where he was using it. GA had keys to the car KC normally used and there is a lot of evidence that shows KC was not using the car for a substantial period of time while Caylee was missing. There are more holes in the state's case than there is in swiss cheese.
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The kicker here is George and Cindy were at work. That leaves Casey disappearing with the car which was missing until early July and her statements of where she was with that car. George had the duct tape much later than this horrible event. After his granddaughter was found to be missing and unknowingly used it to put up signs. That does not make him the only one to have possession of the duct tape at any time when Casey was seen in that home she also had access to that roll of duct tape. George wasn't home on the 16th after he saw Caylee alive. He was at work and Casey was not seen again with Caylee. Casey had physical possession of the most important piece of this puzzle. Not the duct tape, not the gas can, she had her daughter. And she was the one that lied about her whereabouts each and every day for 31 days and Caylee had not been seen by anyone since 6/16/2011.

They tested bones for drugs. The Doctor stated they would never expect that drugs would be found in bones 6 months later. The drugs would have been found in the organs of the body which were gone a long time before.

I disagree there are holes in the states case. And, the defense has back themselves into a corner. They themselves claimed their client lied. The State proved that Casey lied and can't be trusted. So now how is the defense going to put Casey on the stand and ask a jury to believe her? They already told the jury she lies.
 
I've lived near Detroit for 62 years and I've never even heard of the guy.
 
mikeysmommom said:
He testified in Ryan Widmer's trial according to him her injuries were do to CPR not murder.Well I feel better because Widmer was convicted as IMO ICA will be.
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Thats actually great news!!!! Caylee had no broken ribs or sternum or any other fractures noted on autopsy for that matter. CM made a big deal about there being no fractures.
CPR would have likely caused fractures. Maybe the good Dr can explain 2 adults standing around crying, crying, crying rather than attempting to save the childs life. IMO walking on the child abuse would require attempting CPR at the very least.

Besides. Caylee could have died of a bullet wound and bled out. Dr G even explained that. Pretty easy to speculate wildly when there's no soft tissue left to contradict you.
 
chicklet said:
But pretty much everyone who thinks KC is guilty of murder is accusing her of "Zanny the Nanny" being drugs and the trunk. NO DRUGS whatsoever showed up in the toxicology report...not prescription drugs, not illegal drugs, not manufactured drugs, not over the counter drugs...nothing. That blows the claim that KC is guilty of abuse right out of the water. There were also NO signs of any physical abuse. On top of that, the only person who can be proven to have possession of the duct tape is GA, where it is shown next to him in a photograph where he was using it. GA had keys to the car KC normally used and there is a lot of evidence that shows KC was not using the car for a substantial period of time while Caylee was missing. There are more holes in the state's case than there is in swiss cheese.
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BBM To the skeleton. Didn't you listen to the ME explain that Caylee could have been abused horribly but suffered no skeletal trauma. She could have been kicked in the stomach and hemorrhaged to death. She could have been shot and the bullet completely penetrated her body missing all bones. She could have been asphyxiated with a plastic bag. She could have been doused with the gas ICA stole from GA and set on fire although the hair mat suggests that's not the case. Her head wasn't set on fire but her torso could have been and resulted in the same osteological (sp?) findings on autopsy.
I'm not even going to bother addressing the duct tape except to say this. The DT are the ones making the claim that ICA has poor impulse control. Poor impulse control manifests itself in things like stealing. Just a thought but ICA stole money, credit cards, food, her mothers laptop before she left, her BFF's checks, her fathers gas. Reasonable people might agree it is likely she stole the family roll of duct tape. She stole Amy's duct tape too actually but it doesn't have a logo on it. Amy needed it to move in with ICA after her parents divorced and gave her their house lol! The texts regarding this have been released to the public.

Read the autopsy report again and listen to Dr G's testimony. There's a good reason the toxicology reports came back with no smoking guns.
You not understanding the evidence doesn't make it holier than swiss cheese...sorry.

:twocents:
 
Update on local news indicates that Dr. Spitz was on his way to Orlando this morning. He is scheduled to testify on Friday.
 
Something stinks ..wonder if Dr. Shitz is on the do not call unless desperate list. So who is paying for his testimony?
 
kaRN said:
BBM To the skeleton. Didn't you listen to the ME explain that Caylee could have been abused horribly but suffered no skeletal trauma. She could have been kicked in the stomach and hemorrhaged to death. She could have been shot and the bullet completely penetrated her body missing all bones. She could have been asphyxiated with a plastic bag. She could have been doused with the gas ICA stole from GA and set on fire although the hair mat suggests that's not the case. Her head wasn't set on fire but her torso could have been and resulted in the same osteological (sp?) findings on autopsy.
I'm not even going to bother addressing the duct tape except to say this. The DT are the ones making the claim that ICA has poor impulse control. Poor impulse control manifests itself in things like stealing. Just a thought but ICA stole money, credit cards, food, her mothers laptop before she left, her BFF's checks, her fathers gas. Reasonable people might agree it is likely she stole the family roll of duct tape. She stole Amy's duct tape too actually but it doesn't have a logo on it. Amy needed it to move in with ICA after her parents divorced and gave her their house lol! The texts regarding this have been released to the public.

Read the autopsy report again and listen to Dr G's testimony. There's a good reason the toxicology reports came back with no smoking guns.
You not understanding the evidence doesn't make it holier than swiss cheese...sorry.

:twocents:
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"Could have" is not proof or evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact is...there is no proof of anything other than KC lies like a rug. On June 8th Dr. Drew reported on his HLN show that he had spoken to GA's ex wife who said that GA is a prolific liar and that KC probably inherited it from him. <modsnip> If you have Comcast cable you can watch it from their onDemand programming. For all any of us know GA could be involved. Just because he used to be in LE doesn't mean he couldn't do anything wrong. (Bobby Cutts Jr., Drew Peterson) Assuming LE officers never do bad things is like assuming that no priest would ever molest a child. A person's career choice doesn't make them incapable of wrong-doing.

ETA by Salem: Partial transcript here: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1106/08/ddhln.01.html
 
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