Mexico Mexico - David Hartley, 30, Lake Falcon, 30 Sept 2010 #1

[Linda7NJ]

Blondie, I think it is likely that Gov. Perry hasn't personally watched the multiple interviews in which the story keeps changing. One would hope that it would be a safe bet to simply trust in the judgement of the local sheriff, who has gone on record as believing the story. If the sheriff says that he has asked all of the tough questions and is satisfied with her answers, that is probably what the Governor will believe, until he is given info to the contrary.

I'm no great fan of Rick Perry, but I'd bet that he made that statement based upon incomplete or incorrect information.

Maybe they are publicly saying they believe her to keep her talking, giving her enough rope to hang herself....if the body & jet ski are ever recovered, which I doubt.

I wonder if they would have enough for "probable cause" to get warrants for this couples financial records? I certainly hope someone in LE is working that angle.

IMO This will be another one of those cases that will never be closed.

 

[IWannaKnow]

OK, I'm gonna walk the plank and state that I DO believe Tiffany. I have no trouble believing that things have degenerated to this state. I agree and admit that this would be a wonderful insurance scam, but I do not think that is what is going on here. I think exactly what she said happened happened and this is how I think it went down:

They skied out to Guerrero to take more pictures of the mission and were approached by the boats of pirates. David immediately knew what was happening and hustled to get them out of there. The pirates followed and were firing upon them with machine guns - AK-47's by all reports - which I have no trouble seeing at least one of several men being able to strike David from behind - we are not talking pistols at 20 paces here. Tiffany would have been in front because she is lighter and her ski would have been able to travel faster. She saw David fly off, stopped and tried to help him, at which time the pirates caught up to them and surrounded them. This would have been the "gun pointed at me" and I imagine they were trying to decide exactly what to do with her. I firmly believe they wanted to kidnap her for sex trafficking. A petite blonde like her would have brought big $$$$$ down there, absolutely no reason to shoot such an "opportunity" and ruin the investment, especially with the husband effectively out of the way so-to-speak. So, Tiffany wisely decided to run from them, which would explain why she had to go back around them, and as another poster stated, she had them out classed on that jet ski and all they could do was chase her as she raced back to the US side. At this point the pirates best hope was to shoot her before she could get back but that didn't happen. If only one boat pursued her, the other two could have easily gone back to take care of David's body and the jet ski. I can't imagine it would be too hard to tow that jet ski behind their boat to a place to dispose of it. As to the poster who stated they would have towed David on the ski......how???? He is twice her size, and the drag alone would have pulled her off her ski, she would have never been powerful enough to hold on to him, AND she would have never been able to out run them towing David's body IMHO.

I know it seems crazy to go out there, but it is apparently quite the sight seeing mecca. Old Guerrero was built in 1750, and has lots of Spanish Colonial architecture which draws many people over there to see it. Apparently there are even tours that go over there . If you open this link and look at the first photo, the Texas Heritage Society all went there as a group in Nov 2009 to tour Old Guerrero......I know they weren't over there buying drugs!

http://texasheritagesociety.org/Guerrero-Viejo.html

On November 1, 2009, members and guests of the Texas Heritage Society visited Guerrero Viejo and took this picture in front of the church. The church has undergone a great deal of restoration in recent years. Historian "Chuy" Jesus Correa, Executive Director of the Roma, Texas Chamber of Commerce, explained that since the restoration of the church began, Lake Falcon has risen several times. The water line can be seen just above the heads of the people in the photo above.

Besides all that, if drugs were all Tiffany and David were doing, they didn't need to go to Old Guerrero on jet skis to get them! I'm sure they could have asked on almost any street corner and gotten exactly what they wanted......they certainly didn't need to take this huge risk to buy drugs. :twocents:

These things prevent me from believing this is a scam:
1) Witness to her flight across the lake pursued by at least one boat.
2) Witnesses who heard the gunshots.
3) At least five attacks on boaters in this lake in the last 6 months by similar individuals.
4) Government officials have been stating for months to stay out of Mexico since it is too dangerous.
5) Sheriff won't go over to participate in search because it is too dangerous.
6) Established tours for Old Guerrero - lots of people go there for the same reason.

 

[Mouser]

Well, well, well...I haven't visited Websleuths since last December! But here I am--back after hearing the news story about Tiffany Hartley. Immediately after it aired, I flew over to the computer to dig a little deeper. Actually, to see if there were others out there who shared my utter suspicions. I knew I could count on the folks at Websleuths to validate my perspective.

Tiffany Hartley is showing zero emotion. It hadn't occured to me that she and her husband could have been co-conspirators in a life-insurance scam--that is definitely a reasonable possibility. But one thing is for sure in my mind--this woman is GUILTY of something. No way a woman who loves and cares about her husband can be that cold and composed when talking about him in the past tense.

Looking forward to following this one.

 

[Linda7NJ]

sniped

Besides all that, if drugs were all Tiffany and David were doing, they didn't need to go to Old Guerrero on jet skis to get them! I'm sure they could have asked on almost any street corner and gotten exactly what they wanted......they certainly didn't need to take this huge risk to buy drugs. :twocents:

Drugs may be involved imo, but not in the way you are thinking.

The lake is a drug corridor INTO this country. Maybe it sometimes is transported here via jetski.

 

[Linda7NJ]

That whole wreath laying ceremony thing was odd, to me. Just struck me as kind of garish. I'd rather have this turn out to be 2 greedy people trying to get life insurance rather than bad guys chasing down innocent (albeit ignorant) jet skiers. If the latter is the case, none of us are safe.

"innocent jet skiers" that illegally crossed the border into a well known dangerous area that they were warned to stay out of.

 

[IWannaKnow]

sniped


Drugs may be involved imo, but not in the way you are thinking.

The lake is a drug corridor INTO this country. Maybe it sometimes is transported here via jetski.

Linda, you think they were drug mules? Then why shoot him? Because he two-timed them? IMHO, they would have NEVER let her escape if that were the case. :twocents:

 

[oh_gal]

"innocent jet skiers" that illegally crossed the border into a well known dangerous area that they were warned to stay out of.

If you want to split hairs, yes. But I was talking about the bigger picture here -- greedy people, out for themselves (cashing in on life insurance policy), vs. dumb folks, being where they shouldn't be, and getting killed for it.

 

[Intermezzo]

No way she got off her jetski, to retrieve her shot husband, while 3 boats of pirates are shooting at her! That part, as well as, the staring down the barrel of a gun a mere 10 feet away from her face ...and what? They missed? Decided to let her go but continued to chase her, while shooting at her, well into US waters?

No freakin way!

Makes more sense she paid THEM to shoot him!

I keep reading the articles and the same word jumps out at me No Evidence

She says she can't prove anything, no photos from our camera..no Evidence
The US authorities can not go into Mexico to retrieve the body..No evidence
Husband's jet ski is missing. No evidence
Her jet ski has no visible signs she was shot at. No Evidence

I hope I am wrong because it is a terrible ordeal she went through and her husband paid the ultimate price with his life but I am not able to believe with certainty the events as retold by her..
:twocents:

 

[belimom]

"innocent jet skiers" that illegally crossed the border into a well known dangerous area that they were warned to stay out of.

To play devil's advocate (b/c I'm not convinced the story is true...on the fence here), when we lived in Egypt we did someone equally 'not very smart'.

As expats, we were only allowed to travel so far into the Sahara without requiring an escort. Well, after a year, we got cocky and wanted to do some real exploring on our own without being escorted to the major tourist sites. So we took a back road around the checkpoint and - voila! We were on our own... Pretty cool until we found ourselves lost in a small village in the southern Sahara, with guntoting men (not a woman in sight) having a training session of some sort. I dove into the floor with our video camera (actually stuffed the video camera under the seat) while my husband nervously tried to get out of there, as we caught their attention and folks were starting to gather around the car. We did make it back to Cairo and vowed never again to sneak off on our own. This was within one week before 9/11...

I'm not saying that anything would have happened to us, but it could have - and yes, if it had been in the news, the main question would've been, "What were they thinking?" So it does show that people take risks the more familiar they are with an area/people (despite warnings from the State Dept, our Egyptian friends, etc. :twocents:

 

[Intermezzo]

Tiffany Hartley has STILL apparently NOT filed an official complaint...which is needed for an official search.



According to media reports it is Tiffany Young-Hartley. Also according to her facebook.



They have been married for 8 years. June 1, 2002.



Tiffany says IN the original 911 call that her husband was shot "in the head."

That she TRIED to pull him onto her jet ski but he was "just too big."

She says that she got OFF of her jet ski, went over and flipped him over and saw the bullet hole.


Why would you even try to get him on your jet ski? I am precisely the same size as Tiffany. My father is about the same size as her husband. In a situation where he was unconscious and I needed to get out of the area immediately, I would grab onto the life jacket and pull him next to the jet ski while I drove. She had already flipped him over onto his back, so there wouldn't have been nearly as much drag as if he'd been face first. I would do that until I could get further away from the guys shooting, where I could likely pull him onto the jet ski or yell for help.

Why would they just shoot this guy dead, with no motive? They had no money obviously. They didn't take her wedding ring, or hold either of them for ransom. They didn't abduct her and rape her. They didn't kill her, the witness. This is nothing like the other robberies in the area, it doesn't fit the pattern. Unless there was some other motive for him to be killed, it makes no sense.


Meanwhile, the profile photo for David Hartley’s Facebook page changed on Friday — the day after he was reported missing — and he added new friends.

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/articles/falcon-117639-heights-police.html

The profile picture it changed to was uploaded, not just changed on Oct 1 and is of the water. He was gunned down on the 30th. I don't know about you... but I wouldn't be in the mood to change my husband's profile picture the day after seeing him get shot in the head.

If other people have reported that the pirates tried to "lure" them across the border, why would they chase her so far into US waters when they already decided not to kill her?

Held a gun to her head??? From a boat?

No, that is a new one for me. I had only heard that she was looking down the barrel of a gun and it was "the length of" her jet ski away from her...which was "about 10 feet."

So the "looking down the barrel of a gun" was not a figure of speech if it was ten feet away.




The pirates didn't speak to Tiffany, they only spoke in Spanish to each other "trying to decide what to do with" her.

They just shot him in the back of the head and then shot at her, but miraculously missed her and her jet ski.

All other cases the people have been robbed and they have been on boats. Obviously on a jet ski you don't have your wallet or your rolex on you.



sbm

Hi,
Is there a link to a media report that his Facebook profile pic was uploaded and changed and he added new friends the day after he was reported
missing?
How did this news come about?
I tried to look him up on Facebook but there are many with the same name.

 

[IWannaKnow]

I thought this was a good article about this subject:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2010/10/07/murder-family-think-spouse/

Yet, the fact that murder in the family is common doesn’t explain the knee-jerk reaction to always assume that that phenomenon may lurk behind the headlines. One of the reasons we may jump to that idea is that human beings unconsciously prefer to believe that something very grave was amiss in a family in order to explain how someone in that family can be shot dead. After all, if a toxic relationship is to blame, then we need not see the world as dangerous for the rest of us. We need only wonder whether our spouses are killers (and most people don’t wonder), and we are safe. It is much more ominous to think that a 60-mile stretch of lake in Texas is infested with Mexican drug lord-financed pirates and that our government is currently impotent to do anything much about it. Because if that’s the case, none of us are truly safe.

 

[TCMom]

Hi,
Is there a link to a media report that his Facebook profile pic was uploaded and changed and he added new friends the day after he was reported
missing?
How did this news come about?
I tried to look him up on Facebook but there are many with the same name.

Look her up. It's much easier, and then she's married to him. Use the exact name in the post you quoted.

 

[belimom]

Look her up. It's much easier, and then she's married to him. Use the exact name in the post you quoted.

It's her page alright, but it says she lives in Reynosa, Mexico... :waitasec:... If they did live in Mexico once, then this gets a whole lot more complicated, I think.

ETA: His page said the same thing.

 

[rookie]

His profile picture was changed before Sept. 8.

I for one believe her and hope they are able to recover her husband's body.
In all of their pictures they lean in towards each other. They look like they were very close and loving.

As far as Meredith asking the tough questions, why don't they ever ask George and Cindy Anthony the tough ones?

 

[IWannaKnow]

It's her page alright, but it says she lives in Reynosa, Mexico... :waitasec:... If they did live in Mexico once, then this gets a whole lot more complicated, I think.

belimom-
They did live in Reynosa, for David's job IIRC, but recently moved back to the US side, and were about to move back to CO.

My hubby and I did a similar stupid thing, only we were in the US. We took a right turn in New Orleans and within two or three blocks were smack in the middle of one of the worst projects in the city. We were the only white faces for blocks. I was terrified to say the least and now carefully check the map before we make any rash decisions, so I too understand how you can innocently wind up somewhere you absolutely shouldn't be. We could have easily been another New Orleans statistic. Tiffany and David truly strike me as a loving couple who liked to ski, scuba dive, etc and went for a little sight seeing tour that turned out very badly. I could be completely wrong, but I don't think so, even though I know I am in the minority.

I can't understand why all the sudden everyone is defending the Mexican government and choosing to believe them over her. :waitasec:

 

[TCMom]

His profile picture was changed before Sept. 8.

I for one believe her and hope they are able to recover her husband's body.
In all of their pictures they lean in towards each other. They look like they were very close and loving.

As far as Meredith asking the tough questions, why don't they ever ask George and Cindy Anthony the tough ones?

Facebook Profiles don't always list changes like that or comments to other people's status in chronological order mixed in with your own posts. The photo in question was uploaded on Oct 1, so it would be impossible to make that picture the profile picture prior to Sept. 8.

It is curious as to how/why it changed. Also, odd if you ask me that the only other picture in his profile picture album is a picture of him on a jet ski with a "pirate" ship behind him. Yet that picture was uploaded 2 years ago. Odd coincidence.

 

[Tuffy]

It's her page alright, but it says she lives in Reynosa, Mexico... :waitasec:... If they did live in Mexico once, then this gets a whole lot more complicated, I think.

ETA: His page said the same thing.

Yep, they did live in Reynosa at one time.

I really don't believe her story. I don't know what might have really happened out there, but her manner and story just don't seem right to me. It isn't a matter of me not believing that an innocent person could have been gunned down like that, and it's not that I am quick to believe the Mexican authorities. I am basing my opinion on her alone.

Living in southern Texas, I am very aware of the violence on the border, gang violence, and all. That wouldn't surprise me at all. I just think this woman's story sounds fishy.

 

[truckengirl]

Ok I have a question, if he was shot in the head as she says then there would have been blood and other stuff (dont want to say the words) in the water, on him, on his life vest, etc. There is no way she could have turned him over and tried to get him on her jet ski without having some of the blood etc get on her, her life vest and her jet ski. Has anyone seen any mention of whether there was any blood etc found on the jet ski or on her.

 

[belimom]

Excellent "Opinion Article" by a former prosecutor:

Mexican 'Pirates'? -- Why We First Suspect the Spouse

From the article:

"She says she doesn't know why she was spared. That makes two of us -- I mean -- two million of us. Random killers don't develop a conscience in the middle of an execution."

 

[laytonian]

They were asking questions about this case on the news yesterday. Plenty of people find the wife's story fishy. The couple were 5-6 miles over the Mexican border. It was not an accident that they were over there. She claims they went there to explore some ruins.

She says they were approached by men in boats with guns. The husband was shot in the back of the head. The couple were on jet skis. Most jet skis could out run most motor boats. The jet skis can go about 60 mph. That would take a really accurate shot from a high-powered rifle at a fast moving target.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen that way, but it sounds kind of suspect. What do you guys think?

Oh, thank God!
I thought I was going to have to post another "I feel guilty saying this but..." (like in the Bethany Storro case). This case smells like the Justin and April Barber case.

There's no rush in finding his body.
Obviously, unless weighted, his body will soon surface in the lake.

Who is the "reliable" witness?
Since they were six miles into Mexico, what were they really doing there?
How come they were singled out -- and why was HE the only one shot?
How come she got away safely?
Where's his jet ski? You'd have to blow one up, to sink it.
Where's his life vest?

Did anyone else hear Cliff Van Zandt on MSNBC yesterday? He practically came right out and said that her story made no sense....and compared it to other recent lies (like Storro).

"I just keep hearing God tell me 'You have to go, you have to go'", she [the wife] told one reporter.
Did God tell her to buy sunglasses, too? Sorry....but when someone with a fishy story says that God saved them from harm (after allowing acid thrown on a face, or a man shot in the head)...it's not God talking to them.