Found Deceased Mexico - Kevin, 41, Amy, 38, Sterling, 12, & Adrianna Sharp, 7, Tulum, 15 March 2018

[Isabelle]

Be advised: I spent 8 years from age 17 to 25 installing water heaters. That right there is EXACTLY the cause of this catastrophe. I literally gasped when I saw what a terribly atrocious cob-job that installer had done.

Notice the black soot smeared all over the blue piping? That's incomplete combustion caused by a major leak in the vent pipe; it normally burns fully along the upward length of the pipe (cooling and being converted fully to CO2 and water vapor), but instead it's getting ejected out sideways into the the air and oxidizing, generating soot and carbon monoxide. That family was killed by their hot water heater. Or, to be precise, the murderously negligent fool who installed or modified it last.


1) That vent pipe is supposed to be rigid, double-walled galvanized steel, rated against acidic flue gas at 200-degrees. Cost: $13 a foot.
Installer instead used semi-rigid, low-temp aluminized dryer vent (which is only rated for 120F hot air, and is also not designed to be leak-proof even against that). Cost: $3 a foot.
Disaster waiting to happen.


2) The rigid vent pipe is supposed to be firmly secured to the draft diverter (the black funnel thing that sucks air up the pipe) with a nylon-gasketed collar rated to seal against hot flue gas. Cost: $6.
Installer instead used a big wad of aluminized dryer vent tape, which is rated to 120F hot air and intended to patch minor holes in existing dryer line. It is even less resistant to moist, hot, acidic gas than the dryer hose itself, worse than even duct tape! Cost: pennies.
MAJOR disaster waiting to happen.


The failure occurred in one of those two parts, probably that atrocious "tape joint". Just look at all the residue built up! He even smudged it to make it obvious in the picture. I'm literally going to be sick. This is terrible negligence.

Wondering what the building codes in that part of the world are like or if there is much?

 

[Kamille]

According to the Press Release, it was the QI building, and according to the earlier statement from the Prosecutor's office, it was unit CH1. That would make it Property #p593514vb.

That unit's listing was deleted by HomeAway US, which was the site they found it from and booked it through, as soon as the story broke. They're now clamming up and playing the PR game. If it wasn't for the landlady's stunt in trying to blame the family, I might have not gone to this trouble. The Homeowner's Association is clearly trying to distance themselves from the "owner" (not "owners", interestingly, as it is stated on their page formerly) and the use of the male pronoun makes clear they're referring to Mr. Clinton Stuart Dougherty, who indeed states on his own page he bought the property in 2013 (as the HOA stated).

Mr. Dougherty is, as he states in his biography on the former condo page, is indeed a retired Hollywood director, actor and voice actor.

https://www.voices.com/actors/cdluni
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0234824/

I sincerely hope he's saved his pennies, for I suspect he'll find his homeowner's insurance will abandon him shortly just as the HOA did, simply because a dead 4-person family is worth around $150 million just for the loss of all those years of potential life (yes, courts think this way). If there's negligence, that can double or triple, and judgments based on a finding of negligence are not bankruptable; you wear them till you pay 'em or they bury you with them.

I have the unit's listing on the uk version of HomeAway, saved in Google Cache. Here it is. Hopefully some kind of comprehension can be gained of how to avoid this terrible tragedy again. Every one of those units ought to be inspected now, and it's certainly not going to happen if they're destroying evidence and their own statements.'

I am a giant tool and I can't figure out how to get this image to mount correctly here. Please click on this link instead.

Great sleuthing Arshin!

It's hard to believe that the condo is less than 5 years old with such an inferior venting material being used and the obvious soot around the vent. I'd have to believe that it is the same venting material that was used in the initial construction because how often would that need to be repaired in a 4 year period? I know my last visit to the resort was in 2010 and the bridge over the highway had just been completed and the Sian Ka'an resort was just getting started. There were no condos or other residential units built at that time that I'm aware of so November 2013 sounds about right for this unit to have been first occupied.

With that in mind, whose responsibility would it be if that inferior venting material was used by the builder and there is no inspection or proper code to be upheld?

 

[jjenny]

Current owner purchased this condo in 2013, but I don't believe that is the year the building was build?

 

[liltexans]

It wouldn’t be the gas that powered the hot water heater?

No, it would be CO from a leak. Check out posts #312 and #315 upthread. jjenny and I both posted links that explain how CO can leak from an improperly installed or improperly maintained gas water heater.

 

[Satchie]

Wondering what the building codes in that part of the world are like or if there is much?

I think it's up to the building/unit owner to hire reputable people for jobs such as installing a hot water system. Just like in the USA, these things should be regularly inspected, particularly if you're renting out your unit, but there's no legal requirement, just like if you're running an AirBnB in the US.

I'm not sure what the legal recourse will be, as Mexico has a different legal system than the USA, which it inherited from Spain.

 

[Hippononymous]

Current owner purchased this condo in 2013, but I don't believe that is the year the building was build?

In the link shared by Arshin the owner states they purchased it pre construction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Arshin Carnifex]

Isabelle:

It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to suffocate in your sleep on propane or LPG gas. This is because: a) it's heavier than air and thus rolls around on the floor, building upwards slowly but spreading outwards fast, and b) it'll have you vomiting from the effects of that much mercaptan odorant in a small condo before the gas layer rises high enough to block out more than 10% of the oxygen. That's all you need to survive (barely). It's for this reason propane/LPG is much more likely to find itself an ignition source an blow your house up before the layer can build high enough to reach face-height or bed-height. Propane's "a crawler, not a climber".

Still, lets say you're in a sealed condo with zero ignition sources, a big propane leak on the floor, but no carbon monoxide to sneak up on you. What you see is what you've got. The ethyl mercaptan that the propane is odorized with is actually chemically designed to be intolerably irritating and nauseating when there's a large propane leak in the area. More propane on the floor = more ethyl mercaptan in the air for you to breathe in your sleep. Eventually, it WILL get so bad that only the truly comatose (or dead drunk) could sleep through the gagging and eye watering, even though the propane itself is still sloshing around under your bed and hasn't begun to steal your oxygen. It's been extensively tested on drunks, in fact, back in the 30s. Your impulse if awoken in such a state (even if you have no idea what's going on) is "I NEED FRESH AIR!!", which of course you DO, just for a different reason that you CAN'T smell. And that, from a public health perspective, is a "fail safe" product. It was invented after the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion.

Remember, CO is physically toxic to breathe and permates instantly into the air. There is no "layer" to get away from, and no irritation to tell you to run away. If you got buried in a propane cloud you'd thrash and scream like a wildebeest trying to get away, but CO would do you like it did the poor kids... not with a bang, but with a whimper. One minute they're playing, next they're... strangely. sleep...y....*THUNK*. A life ended just like that, with no real warning at all. Propane gives you pleeeenty of warning.

Plus, propane would not produce black soot on the pipes and wall if it was merely leaking (unburnt) out of the water heater's intake line. That's strictly a failed combustion product. Something is burning, but it's not burning how it should and it's not GOING where it should. An unburnt propane leak would be hissing and smelling like mercaptan, not depositing black soot. Black soot means propane incompletely burning due to being let out of the chimney within 1/5th or so of it's normal length. It oxidizes messily instead of burning cleanly, and you get CO and carbon instead of CO2 and water.

Hope that helps. :smile:

 

[Jsizzle]

Wow. Was stepdad atleast sincerely apologetic about that big screw up?

Especially since you could have died?

OMG yes he was!! He felt terrible (obviously). I got pretty lucky.

 

[Jsizzle]

How does that happen? Wouldn't he have missed the keys or something? I mean I am pretty darn scatterbrained but I can't imagine what reason you would have for leaving a car running when already pulled into a garage? Yikes [emoji15]

So my mom has an old corvette and every now and then they start it up to make sure it’s running well etc. well, apparently he started the car, got distracted and went inside. Then my 6 month old sister needing tending to and my mom was trying to get ready for dinner. It was just a big cluster. And the family truck was parked outside the garage and since it was closed no one knew.

 

[KNinTX]

Is it likely that other condo units in this building would have been constructed with the same "engineering" and materials? I wonder what the building occupancy % is. Seems like everyone there is potentially in danger.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

Isabelle:

It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to suffocate in your sleep on propane or LPG gas. This is because: a) it's heavier than air and thus rolls around on the floor, building upwards slowly but spreading outwards fast, and b) it'll have you vomiting from the effects of that much mercaptan odorant in a small condo before the gas layer rises high enough to block out more than 10% of the oxygen. That's all you need to survive (barely). It's for this reason propane/LPG is much more likely to find itself an ignition source an blow your house up before the layer can build high enough to reach face-height or bed-height. Propane's "a crawler, not a climber".

Still, lets say you're in a sealed condo with zero ignition sources, a big propane leak on the floor, but no carbon monoxide to sneak up on you. What you see is what you've got. The ethyl mercaptan that the propane is odorized with is actually chemically designed to be intolerably irritating and nauseating when there's a large propane leak in the area. More propane on the floor = more ethyl mercaptan in the air for you to breathe in your sleep. Eventually, it WILL get so bad that only the truly comatose (or dead drunk) could sleep through the gagging and eye watering, even though the propane itself is still sloshing around under your bed and hasn't begun to steal your oxygen. It's been extensively tested on drunks, in fact, back in the 30s. Your impulse if awoken in such a state (even if you have no idea what's going on) is "I NEED FRESH AIR!!", which of course you DO, just for a different reason that you CAN'T smell. And that, from a public health perspective, is a "fail safe" product. It was invented after the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion.

Remember, CO is physically toxic to breathe and permates instantly into the air. There is no "layer" to get away from, and no irritation to tell you to run away. If you got buried in a propane cloud you'd thrash and scream like a wildebeest trying to get away, but CO would do you like it did the poor kids... not with a bang, but with a whimper. One minute they're playing, next they're... strangely. sleep...y....*THUNK*. A life ended just like that, with no real warning at all. Propane gives you pleeeenty of warning.

Plus, propane would not produce black soot on the pipes and wall if it was merely leaking (unburnt) out of the water heater's intake line. That's strictly a failed combustion product. Something is burning, but it's not burning how it should and it's not GOING where it should. An unburnt propane leak would be hissing and smelling like mercaptan, not depositing black soot. Black soot means propane incompletely burning due to being let out of the chimney within 1/5th or so of it's normal length. It oxidizes messily instead of burning cleanly, and you get CO and carbon instead of CO2 and water.

Hope that helps. [emoji2]

What a wealth of knowledge you have been on this thread. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain propane vs CO. Such a tragedy that didnt have to happen.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[katydid23]

I don't think the Homeowners Association would be the ones to shoulder any blame here. It seems clear that the homeowner would be the one who hired someone incompetent to put in the water heater, or did the inferior job themselves.

I don't see how the HOA would be liable?

 

[human]

I don't think the Homeowners Association would be the ones to shoulder any blame here. It seems clear that the homeowner would be the one who hired someone incompetent to put in the water heater, or did the inferior job themselves.

I don't see how the HOA would be liable?

Who is responsible for maintenance in an HOA? Many people own comdos in Mexico that they may use once in a great while. They rent them out the rest of the year. The owner may not see his property for months,

What responsiblity does the homeonwer have in this kind of situation?

 

[katydid23]

Who is responsible for maintenance in an HOA? Many people own comdos in Mexico that they may use once in a great while. They rent them out the rest of the year. The owner may not see his property for months,

What responsiblity does the homeonwer have in this kind of situation?

I think it is still the homeowners responsibility. Unless they grant the rights or responsibilities to the Homeowners Association to do safety inspections of their property, or some special deal like that.

We have had 30 years experience, with 2 different HOAS. Neither of them ever looked at our water heaters or our plumbing/electrical inside our home.

They did once a month walk throughs of the neighborhood, and took notes on 'infractions' that affected the neighborhood itself. We would get letters saying we needed to repaint our garage door, or to repave our driveway or trim our backyard tree which was growing over the fence onto the public greenbelt path, etc.

But no one ever looked at our water heater or gas lines or anything within our home. Maybe some HOAS do that, but I don't know of any that do.

 

[katydid23]

Who is responsible for maintenance in an HOA? Many people own comdos in Mexico that they may use once in a great while. They rent them out the rest of the year. The owner may not see his property for months,

What responsiblity does the homeonwer have in this kind of situation?

I think the homeowner has total responsibility in that situation. If you own a condo in Mexico, and live in Oregon, but rent it out all year, then it is your total responsibility to be certain that it is SAFE for others to live there.

If you can't be in Mexico then you need to hire a REPUTABLE management company to make sure there are safety inspections done regularly.



ETA:

HOA RESPONSIBILITIES:
When you purchase a condominium, townhouse or another type of property in a planned development such as a leased land property or a gated community, you are obligated to join that community's homeowners' association (HOA) and pay monthly or annual HOA fees for the upkeep of common areas and the building.

Condominiums
The key to good condominium management doesn't depend on how you assign responsibilities but in anticipating how to best assure your buildings are preserved for the long run.

Simply put...

The condominium homeowners association is responsible for all common areas.
Individual owners are responsible for all unit areas.


https://www.echo-ca.org/article/hoa...ty-condominiums-and-planned-unit-developments

 

[Ibiz]

I think the homeowner has total responsibility in that situation. If you own a condo in Mexico, and live in Oregon, but rent it out all year, then it is your total responsibility to be certain that it is SAFE for others to live there.

If you can't be in Mexico then you need to hire a REPUTABLE management company to make sure there are safety inspections done regularly.



ETA:

HOA RESPONSIBILITIES:
When you purchase a condominium, townhouse or another type of property in a planned development such as a leased land property or a gated community, you are obligated to join that community's homeowners' association (HOA) and pay monthly or annual HOA fees for the upkeep of common areas and the building.

Condominiums
The key to good condominium management doesn't depend on how you assign responsibilities but in anticipating how to best assure your buildings are preserved for the long run.

Simply put...

The condominium homeowners association is responsible for all common areas.
Individual owners are responsible for all unit areas.


https://www.echo-ca.org/article/hoa...ty-condominiums-and-planned-unit-developments

I would say you are correct.

 

[Kas80]

I was on my HOA board and we had both houses and condos. We would always say rule of thumb with condos is you are responsible for everything interior walls in. Owners of vacation homes or rentals may not see their houses for months but it's still up to them to either hire a management company to handle repairs and check in on the property (and in areas where there are seasons, you have to do certain things to winterize and such if it's empty for awhile) or you do it yourself. Which should involve traveling to the house/condo frequently. If the owner hired someone to handle that then the responsibility and ability to sue would shift at least partially to them, but if they handled it all themselves which would have involved likely not checking work done by workers once completed then the negligence is 100% on them. I can't imagine any HOA that would be at all responsible for an individual unit HVAC, only if it was a central unit that serviced the whole building.

 

[Isabelle]

Isabelle:

It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to suffocate in your sleep on propane or LPG gas. This is because: a) it's heavier than air and thus rolls around on the floor, building upwards slowly but spreading outwards fast, and b) it'll have you vomiting from the effects of that much mercaptan odorant in a small condo before the gas layer rises high enough to block out more than 10% of the oxygen. That's all you need to survive (barely). It's for this reason propane/LPG is much more likely to find itself an ignition source an blow your house up before the layer can build high enough to reach face-height or bed-height. Propane's "a crawler, not a climber".

Still, lets say you're in a sealed condo with zero ignition sources, a big propane leak on the floor, but no carbon monoxide to sneak up on you. What you see is what you've got. The ethyl mercaptan that the propane is odorized with is actually chemically designed to be intolerably irritating and nauseating when there's a large propane leak in the area. More propane on the floor = more ethyl mercaptan in the air for you to breathe in your sleep. Eventually, it WILL get so bad that only the truly comatose (or dead drunk) could sleep through the gagging and eye watering, even though the propane itself is still sloshing around under your bed and hasn't begun to steal your oxygen. It's been extensively tested on drunks, in fact, back in the 30s. Your impulse if awoken in such a state (even if you have no idea what's going on) is "I NEED FRESH AIR!!", which of course you DO, just for a different reason that you CAN'T smell. And that, from a public health perspective, is a "fail safe" product. It was invented after the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion.

Remember, CO is physically toxic to breathe and permates instantly into the air. There is no "layer" to get away from, and no irritation to tell you to run away. If you got buried in a propane cloud you'd thrash and scream like a wildebeest trying to get away, but CO would do you like it did the poor kids... not with a bang, but with a whimper. One minute they're playing, next they're... strangely. sleep...y....*THUNK*. A life ended just like that, with no real warning at all. Propane gives you pleeeenty of warning.

Plus, propane would not produce black soot on the pipes and wall if it was merely leaking (unburnt) out of the water heater's intake line. That's strictly a failed combustion product. Something is burning, but it's not burning how it should and it's not GOING where it should. An unburnt propane leak would be hissing and smelling like mercaptan, not depositing black soot. Black soot means propane incompletely burning due to being let out of the chimney within 1/5th or so of it's normal length. It oxidizes messily instead of burning cleanly, and you get CO and carbon instead of CO2 and water.

Hope that helps. :smile:

Thanks so much Carnifex. Now I understand. Much appreciated.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Thanks so much Carnifex. Now I understand. Much appreciated.

Ditto! I've learned so much!

 

[debbiegarcia36]

I don't think the Homeowners Association would be the ones to shoulder any blame here. It seems clear that the homeowner would be the one who hired someone incompetent to put in the water heater, or did the inferior job themselves.

I don't see how the HOA would be liable?

Agree.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk