MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[otto]

Until they went home and that afternoon and found it missing. The parents should have brought up the subject of the gun, the counselor should have asked about gun access.

Just seems like the gun topic was never even thought of despite a drawing of people being killed with a bullet and the kid researching ammunition sales.

That's my understanding as well. The parents and the school did not consider the possibility that the child had taken a gun to school and intended to shoot children, therefore they did not ask the important questions.

 

[Snoopster]

I have an acquaintance who's then-boyfriend crossed illegally from Canada to US on a boat, ten years ago. There was no bolo out on him, just an outstanding warrant for I don't know what. I also don't know the ease of illegal US/Canada or Canada/Us crossing these days.

It's tricky...with the rivers that separate US and Canada, particularly during the summer season. The Thousand Islands area at the eastern end of Lake Ontario, where the St Lawrence River feeds in, is saturated with both American and Canadian cottagers and boaters. I don't know how the Coast Guard of either country keeps track.

As for the Michigan/SW Ontario area, the annual 'Port Huron Float' has created 'interesting' times. Several years ago 1500 tube floaters (and every other imaginable type of floating device) from Port Huron Michigan were blown ashore in Sarnia Ontario. (This is upstream from the Detroit River.) The Ontario Police and customs officials aided them in getting back to the US, piling them on buses. As you can imagine, most of them didn't have passports but they were in 'happy spirits'!

But in early December, I don't think cross-river boating is very common, so I would suspect that those trying to cross would clearly stick out.

 

[Snoopster]

We obviously do not know the particulars of this meeting, but my experience from having four kids go through the school system, volunteering quite a bit and observing different situations, is when students are called to the principals office backpacks etc. are removed/taken from them. Security officer will be asked to be in the room, several precautions that can be taken. I’m not denying that he could have been a threat to those in the room but if that was the case or a concern then we’re talking major liability for sending him back to the classroom.

regarding the part that I bolded....this is so sad to me that there are security officers there when kids are called to the office. The fact that there is a high enough risk that something might happen is concerning to me.

I don't think this is the protocol here in Canada. (however my kids graduated long ago, so I might not be current on this. Please correct me if you know differently.) Then again we don't have shooter drills and guns are much less common. So the risk is much less that a student would have a gun/rifle.

 

[everybodhi]

Snipped for focus.
So...there IS a relationship to the person who let them into the building in Detroit.
I wondered about this last night....whether they knew this individual or talked their way in, maybe handing over some cash...was the person maybe not aware of the manhunt, a janitor or studio artist, whoever?

So that may indicate them going to Detroit rather than elsewhere because this person they knew would help them.
I wonder if this was arranged in advance, and what the plan was to be the following morning. Did this person have access to a boat? Would this person have taken them by vehicle, maybe hidden, through the tunnel (last night I read there was a tunnel from somewhere in the area to the Canada side) ?

How Teen Gunman’s Parents Ended Up Hiding Out in Local Artist’s Studio

According to a news article in the Oxford Leader last month, Sikora finished a mural at Red Knapps American Grill, a bar just around the corner from the Crumbleys’ house. A picture accompanying the story indicated the photo of Sikora was taken by a “Jehn Crumbley,” a nickname Jennifer Crumbley, a realtor-turned-marketing director, has been known to go by professionally and socially. The article appeared to have been updated to remove the caption, but a WayBack Machine archive still featured it.

Reached by phone on Saturday morning, Sikora said he had just been made aware of the investigation and was in conversations with people, but he would not specify whether those were law enforcement officers or lawyers, and declined to comment further.

“You will see more information,” he said.

 

[borndem]

Statement from the attorneys ahead of the arraignment.

https://twitter.com/mikerreports/status/1467138371344637953

Thanks for finding that for us, @Kristin Esq. Interesting statement.
We'll see how it goes -- when it goes. This one will probably take quite a while to get to trial...

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

regarding the part that I bolded....this is so sad to me that there are security officers there when kids are called to the office. The fact that there is a high enough risk that something might happen is concerning to me.

I don't think this is the protocol here in Canada. (however my kids graduated long ago, so I might not be current on this. Please correct me if you know differently.) Then again we don't have shooter drills and guns are much less common. So the risk is much less that a student would have a gun/rifle.

It is sad, and it’s definitely not in every case that they do that, only ones that they feel there might be some physical threat. They didn’t have gun/shooting drills when my kids were in school. My youngest is 28, so I have been out at the school system for a while too. I have four-year-old and six-year-old grandchildren and I hate how the school environment is for them.

 

[passionflower]

Until they went home and that afternoon and found it missing. The parents should have brought up the subject of the gun, the counselor should have asked about gun access.

Just seems like the gun topic was never even thought of despite a drawing of people being killed with a bullet and the kid researching ammunition sales.

And searching for ammo for a gun at school

 

[whitelilac]

How Teen Gunman’s Parents Ended Up Hiding Out in Local Artist’s Studio

According to a news article in the Oxford Leader last month, Sikora finished a mural at Red Knapps American Grill, a bar just around the corner from the Crumbleys’ house. A picture accompanying the story indicated the photo of Sikora was taken by a “Jehn Crumbley,” a nickname Jennifer Crumbley, a realtor-turned-marketing director, has been known to go by professionally and socially. The article appeared to have been updated to remove the caption, but a WayBack Machine archive still featured it.

Reached by phone on Saturday morning, Sikora said he had just been made aware of the investigation and was in conversations with people, but he would not specify whether those were law enforcement officers or lawyers, and declined to comment further.

“You will see more information,” he said.

Interesting. I wonder if Sikora was present during the arrest. Maybe he didn't know about the shooting and manhunt, and was blindsided. I can't imagine he would take such a risk to harbor the couple. Was it Sikora himself who let them in? Or an assistant? Someone else?
Waiting to learn how this develops.

and.."he had just been made aware of the investigation" (this morning Saturday). Investigation into himself, somebody else, or into the manhunt/crime in general?

 

[Lux et Veritas]

School shooting suspect told counselors alarming drawings were for video game, superintendent says

... "At no time did counselors believe the student might harm others based on his behavior, responses and demeanor, which appeared calm," Throne said. ...

If you've made it your mission to commit mass murder, you're most certainly a psychopath and of course, you will be CALM. All lack of normal human emotion and empathy is a top hallmark, as are manipulation and pathological lying. How many stories of mass shootings have we read where the shooter - at that point, an apex predator - is unhurried and methodical? Nearly all of them.

JMO

 

[Estelle]

School shooting suspect told counselors alarming drawings were for video game, superintendent says

... "At no time did counselors believe the student might harm others based on his behavior, responses and demeanor, which appeared calm," Throne said. ...

If you've made it your mission to commit mass murder, you're most certainly a psychopath and of course, you will be CALM. All lack of normal human emotion and empathy is a top hallmark, as are manipulation and pathological lying. How many stories of mass shootings have we read where the shooter - at that point, an apex predator - is unhurried and methodical? Nearly all of them.

JMO

Their school counselors are probably not trained to identify psychopathy but they should be.

 

[MoeInVA]

I do not think highly of the Crumbleys (see my past posts in this thread), and I may be gullible, but I do kind of believe that the “fugitives on the run” thing may have been a miscommunication. They could have been told their lawyers were taking care of the appoint for turning themselves in and did not know about this 4pm arraignment (because their phones were off? Because they thought all calls would go to their lawyers?). I believe the lawyers assumed that they would be informed. I believe they weren’t. Now parts are still sketchy… going out of contact was sketchy if true. But I’d be open minded to hear more.

I mean, were the Crumbleys reached about being required to show up at 4pm?

What time was the ATM retrieval and what time did notice to appear go through? Did they go to the bank in Rochester Hills to get the money for the retainer, so that the lawyers could put in NTA? And then go back to their hide out awaiting word on this appointment to turn themselves in? I’m no legal expert, welcome other thoughts.

 

[Snoopster]

I’ve had a few 15 and even 16 year olds in 8th grade, though most are 14 by year’s end.
My experience may be specific to NYC and maybe to many large cities.

In my experience there is quite a lot of tolerance for people who are different nowadays, and I mean as far as other children go.

When I grew up, also NYC, kids made fun of overweight kids. I don’t see that really anymore. The kids today at least in NYC are elbow to elbow (pre-covid) with kids of every race, nationality, religion, style and so on. Pierced kids, tattooed kids, kids with all kinds of crazy hair, overweight kids, shaved heads on girls—-maybe it’s just me but I honestly don’t see them reacting to each other that way. They’re just used to everyone being their own way.

I think these shootings that seem to happen more in small towns perhaps have a more homogenous population than we have, and someone different stands out more. Also I guess there is still a jock culture? We don’t have that as much.

That’s not to say there aren’t popular and unpopular kids, there are, but I think the parameters have shifted. The cool kids can be anything.

JMO from observation and experience.

ETA: I’m guessing for Ethan, whom LE and the DA say planned this and looked forward to it, the anticipation of power and ability to instill fear seemed worth a life in prison. That and having his name in lights, as it were. He will come to see that prison is inglorious.

Thank you for sharing this observation. I think you're right. These events seem to happen more often in 'homogenous' environments, where everyone is supposed to fit in the one prescribed box. Stress rises. Bullying is justified.

 

[kaen]

The school's website does not list school counselors. Under the heading of student support services, there is link to a psychologist (no contact link) and a social worker who started at the school in August 2021. There is a dean and 3 assistant principals along with the principal.

 

[Estelle]

Interesting. I wonder if Sikora was present during the arrest. Maybe he didn't know about the shooting and manhunt, and was blindsided. I can't imagine he would take such a risk to harbor the couple. Was it Sikora himself who let them in? Or an assistant? Someone else?
Waiting to learn how this develops.

and.."he had just been made aware of the investigation" (this morning Saturday). Investigation into himself, somebody else, or into the manhunt/crime in general?

Whether it was Sikora or someone else who let the parents into the building, I can't think of a plausible reason the parents could have given to this person to have let them at night into that building and then possibly also into a room (which could have been locked) for them to stay the night - whether they knew about the shootings or not. Can you? The only reason I can think of is bribery.

 

[otto]

I do not think highly of the Crumbleys (see my past posts in this thread), and I may be gullible, but I do kind of believe that the “fugitives on the run” thing may have been a miscommunication. They could have been told their lawyers were taking care of the appoint for turning themselves in and did not know about this 4pm arraignment (because their phones were off? Because they thought all calls would go to their lawyers?). I believe the lawyers assumed that they would be informed. I believe they weren’t. Now parts are still sketchy… going out of contact was sketchy if true. But I’d be open minded to hear more.

I mean, were the Crumbleys reached about being required to show up at 4pm?

What time was the ATM retrieval and what time did notice to appear go through? Did they go to the bank in Rochester Hills to get the money for the retainer, so that the lawyers could put in NTA? And then go back to their hide out awaiting word on this appointment to turn themselves in? I’m no legal expert, welcome other thoughts.

Everything about this prosecutor's reaction to the shooting seems emotional rather than legal. It seems like selective information is released, and we have the prosecutor making statements like this:

"Owning a gun means securing it properly and locking it and keeping the ammunition separate," [prosecutor Karen McDonald] said.
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-charges-1.6269907

"Michigan has no law covering the storage of weapons in private homes, and only limited ability to charge a gun owner if a carelessly stored"
​

The Detroit News

Why is the prosecutor stating that a gun must be properly secured and locked with ammunition in a separate location when there is no Michigan law covering the storage of weapons in private homes?

After checking the prosecutor's statements against Michigan gun law, I wonder whether the prosecutor doesn't know law, is trying to get people worked up, or is too emotionally involved to be factual.

 

[Snoopster]

Although I understand that the ex-wife's statement fits nicely into the desired belief that the parents are responsible for the actions of their 15 year old son, what I hear in the statement is an ex-wife who is angry about the amount of child support she was allowed to receive, angry that child support was unpaid, and not happy about her ex-husband's wife.

I don't think anything she said has anything to do with the shootings. Realistically, a man who had three children with three different women did not raise three children to shoot children at school. One of the three children clearly has psychological problems that were not addressed by the school, the police, or the parents.

The drawing was clearly a cry for help, very likely help for something that was happening in the school. The school's decision to have him removed from the school, rather than address what happened in the school to trigger the psychological problems, was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back.



If the child shooter was bullied at school and no one did anything to help, how is telling the upset child to leave the school helping? That's blaming the victim.

"Investigators said they are still trying to determine a motive for the deadly shooting because the suspect isn’t speaking to them. However, some classmates have said Crumbley was bullied, according to the Detroit Free Press."
​

Michigan school shooting suspect identified as Ethan Crumbley

I agree with you about the ex-wife's statement. She might have many valid points, but she will likely have an axe to grind so I take her comments with some degree of scepticism, particularly as to how it might relate to the school shooting. There are many fathers who don't pay adequate child support and who are jerks.

In contrast to your comments though, I DO blame the parents. Parents have the ultimate responsibility and they should have sought help for their son. Instead, they brushed it off.

 

[ilovewings]

Quite true. However, charging the parents because they did not prevent a shooting that they were very likely unaware of makes no sense. The prosecutor states that owning a gun means securing and locking it, but Michigan has no law regarding storage of guns in private homes.

The prosecutor's statements seem to contradict law.

"Investigators said Ethan Crumbley, 15, emerged from a bathroom with a gun and started shooting students in the hallway.

The teen is charged as an adult with murder, terrorism and other crimes.

Under Michigan law, the involuntary manslaughter charge filed against the parents in such cases can be pursued if authorities believe someone contributed to a situation where there was a high chance of harm or death.

Parents in the U.S. are rarely charged in school shootings involving their children, even as most minors get guns from a parent or relative's house, according to experts."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jennifer-james-crumbley-michigan-school-shooting-1.6273754

"Owning a gun means securing it properly and locking it and keeping the ammunition separate," [prosecutor Karen McDonald] said.
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-charges-1.6269907

"Michigan has no law covering the storage of weapons in private homes, and only limited ability to charge a gun owner if a carelessly stored"
​

The Detroit News

EXPLAINER: How unusual is it to charge parents in school shooting? | PBS

NewsHour Weekend

"In 2000 a Flint area man pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter
after a 6 year old boy who was living with him found a gun in a shoe box
and killed a classmate.'

There is no guarantee these charges will wind up with a conviction but I am all for the Prosecutors being aggressive with these charges. It may result in parents thinking twice about making sure guns are not available for children to find in the home, which could have disastrous results.

 

[otto]

I agree with you about the ex-wife's statement. She might have many valid points, but she will likely have an axe to grind so I take her comments with some degree of scepticism, particularly as to how it might relate to the school shooting. There are many fathers who don't pay adequate child support and who are jerks.

In contrast to your comments though, I DO blame the parents. Parents have the ultimate responsibility and they should have sought help for their son. Instead, they brushed it off.

I think laying blame on the parents of children who break the law has to be applied across the board, or not at all. Everyone who has raised a 15 year old child knows that parents know almost nothing about what their children are thinking at that age. I don't think the parents had any idea what their son was thinking or feeling about life at school.

After the shooting they noticed that the gun was missing, not before. No one at the school told them that they thought their son was going to shoot up the school, and it doesn't look like it occurred to the parents until after it happened.

I also take issue with the fact that the child is charged as an adult, meaning he had the ability to form the intent to commit the criminal act in the same way as an adult, but at the same time the child was so young that his parents should have managed him better. Which is it? Was he thinking as an adult, or did he still require parental intervention for guidance, supervision and mental health care?

 

[otto]

EXPLAINER: How unusual is it to charge parents in school shooting? | PBS

NewsHour Weekend

"In 2000 a Flint area man pleaded no contest to involuntary manslaughter
after a 6 year old boy who was living with him found a gun in a shoe box
and killed a classmate.

There is no guarantee these charges will wind up with a conviction but I am all for the Prosecutors being aggressive with these charges. It may result in parents thinking twice about making sure guns are not available for children to find in the home, which could have disastrous results.

States decide on gun law, presumably with a full understanding of all possible consequences. If parents of children with guns will be charged when a child uses the gun for murder, that should be included in the gun law. Every time a gang member under the age of 18 shoots someone, the parents should be charged as well. Make parents accountable 100% of the time, or not at all.

 

[otto]

It's interesting that we so easily accept a violent drawing from a 15 year old child, where there is a gun, blood and a plea for help, and quickly dismiss it as "a game." It seems like we have some really crazy values when a drawing like that is so easily accepted as normal.