MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[Arkay]

Lots of posts about what is the cause of Ethan's issue at the restaurant.

I have vasovagal syncope which has caused me to suddenly faint, all through my life, and all over the world. This doesn't look like that so much, but my point is really that we don't yet know the cause. I don't want to speculate as we really don't know the precipitating event.

IMO what is germane here is that his parents blew it off as that he was just hungry. Another event here in which we all seem to concur that a typical parent would show concern, race to their son's job and take him to a doctor for a checkup.

I wish child services had removed Ethan from that home long ago. State or foster care is not ideal but he would have been cared for, at least.

 

[Boxer]

Schools and LE have to work hand in hand in assessing threats. The counselor did have a door open to her/him when he said he went shooting. Even if that line of questioning was not followed up, the counselor could have (and should have, imo) asked the resource officer to check for weapons on this young man. One day he was searching for ammo at school and another he is making drawings and writing phrases that are violent and pleading for help. I work in schools and don't think this is a lot. It is unfortunate but this is where we are as a society. It is baked into the job. Years ago, teachers would not have made a referral to the counselor or administrator. Now, we see a weak spot in the chain to protect kids in this school's counselor or the interview process. We've got to get better.

IMO, the family should not have been able to leave him at the school. They should have had to take him home and gotten psychological help in 48 hours (any of my peers in schools would agree). Just because he was calm and seeming to want to do school work, he was having concerning thoughts. If he had not worked with that counselor before (or given the fact that his mom poo-pooed the last reach out about the internet search) he might not have felt comfortable letting his guard down and disclosing any thoughts or feelings. In these kinds of cases, most of the professionals I know determine that the actions taken (that brought the kid into the office unless it is a high energy, spontaneous fight) tell us more than the words the kid is saying in the conversation. Without a built relationship, you don't know what you don't know so you respond to the conditions that brought the kid into your office.

Honestly, I think it's unfair to require that amount of finesse from schools.
Creating creepy threatening imagery, instead of school work MOO should equal the student leaving with parents and if they won't, suspend and call CPS office for supervision.

 

[esayer]

I tend to think pot over booze because if he was that drunk on booze, I think someone would have smelled it. I've never fallen over from weed either, but I was not 14 years old... It certainly could have been booze, yes... Or it could have been his not having eaten -- and who knoze, he may not have eaten the night before as well -- it can make someone weak and it possibly could have made him dizzy. Maybe he was acting...

weed is much smellier than booze especially if it's vodka imo.

 

[passionflower]

EC looks like he’s staggering in the video. Everyone I ever saw faint just melt, go down hard with no staggering

 

[rabidstoat]

I'm not the OP, but I took "pause and think about that" to mean that the Crumbleys hired a high profile local criminal defense firm to represent them, while their son most likely has court-appointed counsel. They are in CYA mode and probably don't care what happens to Ethan. JMO

Smith Lehman, PC (defendingabuse.com)

I imagine that the parents are moaning about how Ethan ruined their life, when they should be feeling guilty about how they ruined Ethan's life (and the lives of the others he killed and seriously injured).

 

[kaen]

Honestly, I think it's unfair to require that amount of finesse from schools.
Creating creepy threatening imagery, instead of school work MOO should equal the student leaving with parents and if they won't, suspend and call CPS office for supervision.

Schools I know and schools where people I know all have a much clearer policy than what appears to be happening at this district. In this kind of scenario, no kid in my school or in my area would be sent back to class without the resource officer checking their bags and person for a weapon even if they expressed no intent to self harm or harm others. The administration would step in and make the call also. No counselor in our area is solely responsible for making a decision like this as it is just not good policy (there is too great a chance that the counselor is missing something, especially if there is no prior relationship with a student and/or family).

I wrote earlier in this thread that many schools look to take the decision making out of the school's hands by having a policy that if there are these kinds of threats that EMS is called and the child is taken to the hospital ER and evaluated there. Parents/guardians meet the child at the hospital. Resource officers look in the child's bag, locker, person for items prior to transport. The policy is fairly clear and easy to relate to students. When a student says x or y this is what will happen.

In my mind, there were some serious mistakes made here. Even if this district doesn't want to EMS a student or do what other schools do, it is common practice to have a detailed plan of what to do when you have written or verbal communications of self or other harm. Not sure what happened here but it is a massive failure on the part of the school. I recognize that these kinds of incidents can happen even if you do everything right. Columbine taught us that the minds of these individuals are complex and the next killer will have learned from the ones before. That said, in this instance, this was not a wily, deceiving kid. He wrote things that are concerning and was met with a fairly low level response (imo, unless we hear something more about the process) given that they had had a number of threats to the community, he had access to guns (they knew he went shooting), and he had 2 issues concerning guns in a couple of weeks time. I think some "it can't happen here" guided the decision-making process which is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Ruminations]

[

I agree, but these were some glaring red flags, it concerns me that other than a discussion with said manipulative kid, they took no other simple actions such as searching his backpack. They deal with lies and manipulative kids every day. They were concerned enough about his mental health to threaten CPS intervention if the parents did not follow through with counseling. I agree with another poster who said if he had been physically hurt they would’ve taken immediate action, mental health should be treated the same way, this was an immediate need despite Ethan’s lie it was a video game drawing. I would be more forgiving if they had at least searched his backpack, taken any proactive steps.

CPS either needs to be called or does not. It should never be used as a threat, because being investigated by CPS is not meant to be aversive. It is meant to help.

MOO

 

[rabidstoat]

I'm disappointed, too. Having been a teacher and my husband having served two 4-year terms on our local school board, neither of us were eager to jump on the "blame the school" bandwagon. That said, the fact that the school district wants to hire its own third-party investigative team suggests that they might want to control the narrative and outcome of said investigation. Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. JMO

Or they could just be trying to discover what went wrong, if procedures were neglected or if they need better procedures. Or do they need more training, etc., etc.

I'm not sure if the school administration should have criminal liability here, I'm no attorney. But it does seem like a case where they need to look into what happened, why it happened, were processes followed, were warning signs missed, how can they improve, etc., etc.

 

[Cool Cats]

Schools I know and schools where people I know all have a much clearer policy than what appears to be happening at this district. In this kind of scenario, no kid in my school or in my area would be sent back to class without the resource officer checking their bags and person for a weapon even if they expressed no intent to self harm or harm others. The administration would step in and make the call also. No counselor in our area is solely responsible for making a decision like this as it is just not good policy (there is too great a chance that the counselor is missing something, especially if there is no prior relationship with a student and/or family).

I wrote earlier in this thread that many schools look to take the decision making out of the school's hands by having a policy that if there are these kinds of threats that EMS is called and the child is taken to the hospital ER and evaluated there. Parents/guardians meet the child at the hospital. Resource officers look in the child's bag, locker, person for items prior to transport. The policy is fairly clear and easy to relate to students. When a student says x or y this is what will happen.

In my mind, there were some serious mistakes made here. Even if this district doesn't want to EMS a student or do what other schools do, it is common practice to have a detailed plan of what to do when you have written or verbal communications of self or other harm. Not sure what happened here but it is a massive failure on the part of the school. I recognize that these kinds of incidents can happen even if you do everything right. Columbine taught us that the minds of these individuals are complex and the next killer will have learned from the ones before. That said, in this instance, this was not a wily, deceiving kid. He wrote things that are concerning and was met with a fairly low level response (imo, unless we hear something more about the process) given that they had had a number of threats to the community, he had access to guns (they knew he went shooting), and he had 2 issues concerning guns in a couple of weeks time. I think some "it can't happen here" guided the decision-making process which is a recipe for disaster.

Good post.

Where you said:

"this was not a wily, deceiving kid."

I think differently. I think he actually was a wily and deceiving kid. He planned it all along and I even think deliberately faked concern over his science school work while waiting for his parents.

Set scenario, leaving evidence of being mentally disturbed, setting up his own defense, thinking it out, faking mental illness.

Wily

skilled at gaining an advantage, especially deceitfully.

 

[borndem]

I was just rereading the statement put out by the superintendent that laid out the events of the two days. Obviously it doesn't mention names so I'm wondering if the staff members who meet with EC about searching for bullets on his phone weren't the same as those who met with him the morning of the shooting. Perhaps the staff members the day of the shooting had no idea about the bullet searches. It only mentions the dean of students in the meeting the day of the shooting and not the previous day. I'm not sure how many counselors they have that could have contact with him. Just a thought.

No idea who attended which meeting, but they did allow him to go back to class on that awful day. I wonder if anyone in the group protested the decision -- no matter of course, but I SMH and know that those individuals will prolly never get over their decision.
No winners here, but hoping -- as we always do -- that something real, lasting and near-foolproof will be done to protect our children and grandchildren in schools.

 

[Cool Cats]

Or they could just be trying to discover what went wrong, if procedures were neglected or if they need better procedures. Or do they need more training, etc., etc.

I'm not sure if the school administration should have criminal liability here, I'm no attorney. But it does seem like a case where they need to look into what happened, why it happened, were processes followed, were warning signs missed, how can they improve, etc., etc.

The discussion was about the school hiring it's own private investigative team rather than let the Attorney General's Office do it. As if the school is trying to control the investigation.

Everyone - it seems - agrees a third party investigation is necessary.

AG Nessel Says Independent Investigation In Oxford Possible, Despite District's Denial

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel released a statement announcing her disappointment with Oxford Community Schools, after the district denied her request for a third-party review of Oxford High’s mass shooting.

“We asked for their open cooperation and at this point they’re not ready for that yet,” Nessel said during a Zoom press conference Tuesday.

 

[borndem]

Perhaps the AG made a gentle offer the first time (out of respect). After the school district's refusal, the next AG "offer" may be mandatory investigation.

That makes sense to me -- it is, after all, the Attorney General -- an offer you can't refuse, I would assume.

 

[Murphy1950]

Honestly, I think it's unfair to require that amount of finesse from schools.

I know what you're saying Boxer what I hear is ..." don't be so heavy handed on this school, in this case." Part way there with you. We have no idea of the policies this school embraced or how well trained the personnel were. That said...
It's not unfair IMO to expect that level of finesse, to pay for it and be willing to train people to do it. There are 1600/1800 kids in that school

Dissect that drawing section by section..
" the alleged shooter had a drawing that showed a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words, "The thoughts won't stop. Help me," Another section displayed a drawing of a bullet with the words "Blood Everywhere" written above it. Between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is one of a person who seems to have been shot twice and is bleeding, Below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji," "My life is useless" and "The world is dead."

Beyond sad for anyone to express, much less a kid, video game nonsense explanation or not, Who wouldn't be alarmed??? Doesn't take a high level of finesse IMO. Common sense.

In this case whoever was acting as councilor had no problem making it a requirement (not a suggestion or a choice) that the Crumley's seek additional help, so it is fair to say that person obviously felt some level of alarm, concern, or distress. EC should have been dismissed then and there. The counselor clearly wasn't seeing the whole picture. Why the need to accommodate the Crumbley's? Where was the balance?

 

[Boxer]

Schools I know and schools where people I know all have a much clearer policy than what appears to be happening at this district. In this kind of scenario, no kid in my school or in my area would be sent back to class without the resource officer checking their bags and person for a weapon even if they expressed no intent to self harm or harm others. The administration would step in and make the call also. No counselor in our area is solely responsible for making a decision like this as it is just not good policy (there is too great a chance that the counselor is missing something, especially if there is no prior relationship with a student and/or family).

I wrote earlier in this thread that many schools look to take the decision making out of the school's hands by having a policy that if there are these kinds of threats that EMS is called and the child is taken to the hospital ER and evaluated there. Parents/guardians meet the child at the hospital. Resource officers look in the child's bag, locker, person for items prior to transport. The policy is fairly clear and easy to relate to students. When a student says x or y this is what will happen.

In my mind, there were some serious mistakes made here. Even if this district doesn't want to EMS a student or do what other schools do, it is common practice to have a detailed plan of what to do when you have written or verbal communications of self or other harm. Not sure what happened here but it is a massive failure on the part of the school. I recognize that these kinds of incidents can happen even if you do everything right. Columbine taught us that the minds of these individuals are complex and the next killer will have learned from the ones before. That said, in this instance, this was not a wily, deceiving kid. He wrote things that are concerning and was met with a fairly low level response (imo, unless we hear something more about the process) given that they had had a number of threats to the community, he had access to guns (they knew he went shooting), and he had 2 issues concerning guns in a couple of weeks time. I think some "it can't happen here" guided the decision-making process which is a recipe for disaster.

I know what you're saying Boxer what I hear is ..." don't be so heavy handed on this school, in this case." Part way there with you. We have no idea of the policies this school embraced or how well trained the personnel were. That said...
It's not unfair IMO to expect that level of finesse, to pay for it and be willing to train people to do it. There are 1600/1800 kids in that school

Dissect that drawing section by section..
" the alleged shooter had a drawing that showed a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words, "The thoughts won't stop. Help me," Another section displayed a drawing of a bullet with the words "Blood Everywhere" written above it. Between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is one of a person who seems to have been shot twice and is bleeding, Below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji," "My life is useless" and "The world is dead."

Beyond sad for anyone to express, much less a kid, video game nonsense explanation or not, Who wouldn't be alarmed??? Doesn't take a high level of finesse IMO. Common sense.

In this case whoever was acting as councilor had no problem making it a requirement (not a suggestion or a choice) that the Crumley's seek additional help, so that person obviously felt some level of alarm. EC should have been dismissed then and there. The counselor clearly wasn't seeing the whole picture. Why the need to accommodate the Crumbley's? Where was the balance?

MOO there are many alienated teens who would like or do draw creepy things. They need a real rule, draw creepy threatening things in school, get suspended.

Also

"I've got guns in my head and they won't go" are part of the lyrics to a pop song, a song about being a school shooter.

 

[Boxer]

EC looks like he’s staggering in the video. Everyone I ever saw faint just melt, go down hard with no staggering

Agree, fainting is terrifying as the person falls pretty much like a tree.

 

[Loveallmyhorsesdogsandcats]

[


CPS either needs to be called or does not. It should never be used as a threat, because being investigated by CPS is not meant to be aversive. It is meant to help.

MOO

Exactly

 

[Facinatingtimes]

Or they could just be trying to discover what went wrong, if procedures were neglected or if they need better procedures. Or do they need more training, etc., etc.

I'm not sure if the school administration should have criminal liability here, I'm no attorney. But it does seem like a case where they need to look into what happened, why it happened, were processes followed, were warning signs missed, how can they improve, etc., etc.

I’m not an attorney either, but I do believe criminal liability needs to be strongly evaluated here first and foremost - four children were killed.

 

[rabidstoat]

I’m not an attorney either, but I do believe criminal liability needs to be strongly evaluated here first and foremost - four children were killed.

I think civil liability seems appropriate for sure, but do schools have qualified immunity like cops do?

And does anyone know if there's ever been a case like this before where there was a warning sign and action taken the same day of a shooting? Or even the same week? I know school shooters have gotten in trouble for what would be considered warning signs before but I can't recall hearing one in such a compact timeframe.

Whoever was in that conference has to feel awful. Well, maybe not the Crumbleys, but the administrators. Whatever happens, I hope they get counseling, they probably need it.

 

[MimosaMornings]

Jennifer and James Crumbley often left their young son home alone while drinking at bars in downtown Lake Orion in 2014 and 2015, former neighbor Kayla LeMieux said. The boy would have been between 8 and 9 years old at that time.
Crumbley family all behind bars in Oxford High School shootings
I wonder how long ago the older brother moved back in with his mother. I wonder if some of his issues with his stepmother hadthey anything to do with alcohol abuse or the couple leaving him in charge of EC for extended periods while they partied without a care.

I wonder a lot of things about these unusual parents.

The mother’s letter to Trump was dated November 2016, so I’m guessing the father’s broken back and stroke she referenced in that letter happened after the drinking incidents in 2015.
JMO

 

[borndem]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wx...d-for-cash-calls-jennifer-a-monster?_amp=true

Brother of Ethan Crumbley says he never exhibited violent tendencies | Daily Mail Online

Based on these 2 links, my conclusion is that he was raised in FL by his mother and went to stay with his father and Ethan for about 4 months, but returned home because of issues with Jennifer. Maybe he wanted to build a relationship with James and Ethan, but that didn't work out so well with Jennifer. JMO...

ETA: My heart goes out to Eli as well.

bbm
Same here. It's a shame that the two half-brothers could not have formed a good solid bond -- it might have made a big difference in Ethan's life and attitudes. Glad that Eli was well away from this nightmare, but I would guess that he may be distressed by not having the time or opportunity to form a positive bond with Ethan.