MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

[Doghairrules]

@otto

Of course we are all entitled to our opinions here. You've posted that Michigan gun law several times, trying to make your point that Michigan does not require guns to be locked up; instead, it’s only a recommendation.

However—-

There are four corpses who, a few days ago, were children.

There are more children hospitalized with a variety of wounds.

There are hundreds of children who likely will experience trauma and PTSD for all their lives.

This is the germane issue. How did children become corpses? A simple formula:

Ethan Crumbley + loaded gun = dead children.

IMO those Michigan gun safety laws are very ambiguous. It’s illegal to allow a minor to own a gun. It’s illegal to allow a minor to obtain unsupervised access to a gun. Yet it’s not mandatory, only recommended, to safely store a gun so a child cannot access it.

Well then IMO the parents should have slept with the gun under their pillows, or taken it upon themselves to lock the gun up, or whatever else it would take to keep it away from Ethan, because this dreadful outcome shows they did not perform their duty of care as parents.

And there is no doubt this gun was meant for Ethan to own. The mother said so and Ethan has social media with that gun in his hands. That’s illegal and the parents didn’t care. So we get the outcome that we got.

Ethan did this, but he was allowed to.

I’ll never get over Ethan at the barricaded classroom door, telling the children inside that he was from the sheriff’s office and they were safe to come out. This is trickery on the most egregious level. And I know the parents don’t care because they ran away and left him to deal with the consequences alone.

Somehow a path was greased to enable Ethan to kill. Laws, Michigan laws, were broken.

Your opinion is very clear and you are entitled to it. This is all my opinion.

Just want to let you know that LE actually said a couple of days after the shooting that the person at the door was one of them. He used bro to try to be reassuring to the kids or something. But it wasn’t Ethan.

And amen to all of your other well articulated points.

 

[otto]

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack ..."

This does not mean that there were rumors. It says LE was aware of ALLEGATIONS of rumors. No parents or students have said they contacted the school about threats of a shooting.

It means that the Sheriff's office had received information that there were shooting threats on social media prior to the shooting. The fact that they cannot confirm that there were threats gives the impression that the Sheriff's Office did not follow up on the allegations ... to confirm or deny.

 

[ReadySet]

The sheriff also said his office had no indication of danger at Oxford High before the shooting. He said an incident from earlier in November involving a severed deer head at the school was not related to the shooting. And he said deputies had investigated a possible threat last month, but found that it was not credible and pertained to a school in a different state.
Suspect in Michigan School Shooting Faces Murder and Terrorism Charges

 

[Arkay]

Just want to let you know that LE actually said a couple of days after the shooting that the person at the door was one of them. He used bro to try to be reassuring to the kids or something. But it wasn’t Ethan.

And amen to all of your other well articulated points.

oh, thank you @Doghairrules, I had not heard that at all! That’s such a relief—it was haunting me!

 

[otto]

The sheriff also said his office had no indication of danger at Oxford High before the shooting. He said an incident from earlier in November involving a severed deer head at the school was not related to the shooting. And he said deputies had investigated a possible threat last month, but found that it was not credible and pertained to a school in a different state.
Suspect in Michigan School Shooting Faces Murder and Terrorism Charges

Sheriff did have indication of shooting prior to shooting..

"Undersheriff Mike McCabe said earlier that authorities were aware of allegations circulating on social media that there had been threats of a shooting at the roughly 1,700-student school before Tuesday's attack, but he cautioned against believing that narrative until investigators can look into it."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/michigan-school-shooting-1.6268331

 

[happyday]

Although I understand that the ex-wife's statement fits nicely into the desired belief that the parents are responsible for the actions of their 15 year old son, what I hear in the statement is an ex-wife who is angry about the amount of child support she was allowed to receive, angry that child support was unpaid, and not happy about her ex-husband's wife.

I don't think anything she said has anything to do with the shootings. Realistically, a man who had three children with three different women did not raise three children to shoot children at school. One of the three children clearly has psychological problems that were not addressed by the school, the police, or the parents.

The drawing was clearly a cry for help, very likely help for something that was happening in the school. The school's decision to have him removed from the school, rather than address what happened in the school to trigger the psychological problems, was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back.



If the child shooter was bullied at school and no one did anything to help, how is telling the upset child to leave the school helping? That's blaming the victim.

"Investigators said they are still trying to determine a motive for the deadly shooting because the suspect isn’t speaking to them. However, some classmates have said Crumbley was bullied, according to the Detroit Free Press."
​

Michigan school shooting suspect identified as Ethan Crumbley

I was talking about why they didn’t check his backpack before sending him back to class. But as far as making him leave the school, my understanding is that it was to for him to get counseling, not as a punishment. And due to his violent drawings and how the day turned out I think it would have been a good idea.

 

[otto]

I was talking about why they didn’t check his backpack before sending him back to class. But as far as making him leave the school, my understanding is that it was to for him to get counseling, not as a punishment. And due to his violent drawings and how the day turned out I think it would have been a good idea.

He would use his backpack to bring books/lunch to school. Would he leave the backpack in his locker? I can't imagine a classroom with backpacks strewn everywhere. He asked to work on his assignment while he waited for his parents. I'm guessing his coat and backpack were somewhere else.

Without the school or the parents probing into this drawing, there would be no reason to look for a gun. The drawing was related to game design and it sounds like everyone accepted this explanation. He was required to have counselling in place within 48 hours, so someone suspected more but did not ask the right questions.

Was there a covid rule that students had to bring their backpacks to the classroom? If so, and he had his backpack with him at the office, then someone should have asked to look in his backpack.

However, its been reported that the gun was already in the school, possibly in the washroom.

 

[RANCH]

Hours before authorities allege 15-year-old sophomore Ethan Crumbley fired his father's semi-automatic handgun in the hallway of Oxford High School, killing four and wounding seven, a teacher saw a note on his desk with a drawing of a semi-automatic handgun pointing at the words, "The thoughts won't stop, help me," prosecutors said.

Crumbley reportedly told school guidance counselors that the "concerning" drawings were for a video game he was designing, and that he intended to pursue video game design as a career,

The shooter claimed that the drawings he made were for a video game he was designing. I'm not sure that I believe that explanation. And what about his troubling comment "The thoughts won't stop, help me"?

I don't see how that comment could be tied to a video game design. Why did his parents walk away from that? I don't get it. JMO.

School shooting suspect told counselors alarming drawings were for video game, superintendent says

 

[otto]

The shooter claimed that the drawings he made where for a video game he was designing. I'm not sure that I believe that explanation. And what about his troubling comment "The thoughts won't stop, help me"?

I don't see how that comment could be tied to a video game design. Why did his parents walk away from that? I don't get it. JMO.

School shooting suspect told counselors alarming drawings were for video game, superintendent says

I suspect that a lot of us would go on to ask the child about that video game, how many players, the game map, what software he's using, and so on, but it sounds like the "game design" answer was good enough for school and parents.

His parents might have believed their son. Is it possible that the seriousness of the situation did not register with his parents when they were first told about the drawing?

 

[Sundog]

Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect taken into custody in Detroit

Comments on charges of involuntary manslaughter from constitutional law expert and George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley, discussing the charges against the parents from a legal perspective.

 

[RANCH]

I suspect that a lot of us would go on to ask the child about that video game, how many players, the game map, what software he's using, and so on, but it sounds like the "game design" answer was good enough for school and parents.

His parents might have believed their son. Is it possible that the seriousness of the situation did not register with his parents when they were first told about the drawing?

In my opinion the game design excuse was not very believable when you look at the entire situation. A kid looking to buy ammunition and the next day writes about thoughts that wont stop while asking for help.

Those things should have registered serious concerns with his parents because they are obvious clues that something was very wrong with their child.

They ignored all of that and left their kid at the school to later on kill and injure multiple people. JMO.

 

[otto]

In my opinion the game design excuse was not very believable when you look at the entire situation. A kid looking to buy ammunition and the next day writes about thoughts that wont stop while asking for help.

Those things should have registered serious concerns with his parents because they are obvious clues that something was very wrong with their child.

They ignored all of that and left their kid at the school to later on kill and injure multiple people. JMO.

I put it more on the school than the parents. Parents might see their children at breakfast, then supper, then at the end of the day. Fifteen year olds spend the majority of time at school, with friends, doing homework, sports, etc. Parents will buy children gifts to make up for lost time.

Could the "don't get caught" comment from the mother regarding the shooter's search for ammunition be a mother joking with her son, completely oblivious to her son's intent? The alternative is that she genuinely wanted him to continue looking for ammunition, but secretively. That would be problematic parenting. Do we know?

 

[tamsidea]

He would use his backpack to bring books/lunch to school. Would he leave the backpack in his locker? I can't imagine a classroom with backpacks strewn everywhere. He asked to work on his assignment while he waited for his parents. I'm guessing his coat and backpack were somewhere else.

Without the school or the parents probing into this drawing, there would be no reason to look for a gun. The drawing was related to game design and it sounds like everyone accepted this explanation. He was required to have counselling in place within 48 hours, so someone suspected more but did not ask the right questions.

Was there a covid rule that students had to bring their backpacks to the classroom? If so, and he had his backpack with him at the office, then someone should have asked to look in his backpack.

However, its been reported that the gun was already in the school, possibly in the washroom.

Just to answer your question- I can tell you that my high school son and friends of his that attend other high schools do carry their Backpacks all day and did so before Covid. They have school issued Chrome Books (as do a lot of schools) and only one or two actual hardback textbooks like we used to. My middle schooler also carries his backpack (and chrome book) all day.

 

[nightowl1975]

@otto

And there is no doubt this gun was meant for Ethan to own. The mother said so and Ethan has social media with that gun in his hands. That’s illegal and the parents didn’t care. So we get the outcome that we got.
.

I wonder if the defense will present it more along the lines of how a parent buys their teen a car for their birthday or Christmas, but the parent is the actual legal owner of the vehicle. I’ve done that myself… bought my teens “their own” car, but I was the legal owner of the vehicle. Just trying to think of ways the defense will present their side of the story.

 

[nightowl1975]

He would use his backpack to bring books/lunch to school. Would he leave the backpack in his locker? I can't imagine a classroom with backpacks strewn everywhere. He asked to work on his assignment while he waited for his parents. I'm guessing his coat and backpack were somewhere else.

Without the school or the parents probing into this drawing, there would be no reason to look for a gun. The drawing was related to game design and it sounds like everyone accepted this explanation. He was required to have counselling in place within 48 hours, so someone suspected more but did not ask the right questions.

Was there a covid rule that students had to bring their backpacks to the classroom? If so, and he had his backpack with him at the office, then someone should have asked to look in his backpack.

However, its been reported that the gun was already in the school, possibly in the washroom.

Here, schools no longer have lockers as a general rule. Kids carry backpacks with them throughout the day. Some schools require clear backpacks only. I believe schools need reasonable suspicion to search a backpack, though I struggle to believe the drawing alone, regardless of excuse given, wasn’t adequate to justify a search.

 

[otto]

I wonder if the defense will present it more along the lines of how a parent buys their teen a car for their birthday or Christmas, but the parent is the actual legal owner of the vehicle. I’ve done that myself… bought my teens “their own” car, but I was the legal owner of the vehicle. Just trying to think of ways the defense will present their side of the story.

I learned during the Kyle Rittenhouse trial that Kyle wanted to learn how to aim and handle a gun before he was old enough to buy a gun, so a relative purchased the gun and Kyle practiced using the gun under supervision.

I assume that's common, where a father/mother/relative purchases a gun for the child to use for practice until the child is old enough to take over the licence and responsibility for a gun. That's my impression regarding the gun that the parent's purchased for the child - that it was to be used under supervision and kept with the parent at all times.

 

[nightowl1975]

I learned during the Kyle Rittenhouse trial that Kyle wanted to learn how to aim and handle a gun before he was old enough to buy a gun, so a relative purchased the gun and Kyle practiced using the gun under supervision.

I assume that's common, where a father/mother/relative purchases a gun for the child to use for practice until the child is old enough to take over the licence and responsibility for a gun. That's my impression regarding the gun that the parent's purchased for the child - that it was to be used under supervision and kept with the parent at all times.

I’m a female who grew up in the Deep South, and I was taught from an early age how to handle and shoot a handgun. I wouldn’t consider my family of origin gun happy or anything close to it, but it was almost unheard of for a kid of either sex to grow up and NOT know the basics of handling and using firearms. It was like learning how to drive, budget, check the oil in a car… considered a basic life skill.

 

[otto]

Here, schools no longer have lockers as a general rule. Kids carry backpacks with them throughout the day. Some schools require clear backpacks only. I believe schools need reasonable suspicion to search a backpack, though I struggle to believe the drawing alone, regardless of excuse given, wasn’t adequate to justify a search.

The Sheriff's office was aware of shooting threats, there was a resource office on staff, the teacher had a drawing of a shooting, yet the parents were expected to call the shots? When the parents decided (it was obviously a choice) to leave him in school, no one did anything? No one objected? No one called in the Resource Officer?

Still, it didn't matter if the gun was already in the building, which is the understanding at this time.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

School Gunman’s ‘Fugitive’ Parents Laugh, Cry in Court After Wild Manhunt

... On the morning of the shooting on Tuesday, a teacher was “alarmed” at a drawing made by Ethan. It included a handgun with the text, “the thoughts won’t stop. Help me,” and a bullet with the words, “blood everywhere.” There were also some laughing emojis, a person who’d been shot, and the words, “my life is useless,” and “the world is dead,” McDonald said. The drawing prompted staff to remove Ethan from class, and his parents were called into the school. James and Jennifer were shown the drawing and told they had to “get their son into counseling within 48 hours.”
“Both James and Jennifer Crumbley failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack,” McDonald said.
They resisted taking Ethan home with them and left the school soon after, she said. Ethan returned to class with the handgun in his backpack.
“The notion that a parent could read those words [in the drawing] and also know that their son had access to a deadly weapon that they gave him is unconscionable. And I think it’s criminal,” McDonald said. ...

It's almost like the parents wanted EC to shoot himself and/or others. Seriously, how does any sane, loving parent totally IGNORE such nihilistic words / drawings?!

They essentially abandoned him at the school and then abandoned him again to flee when charges came down on their heads. This whole messed up family needs psychiatric intervention.

Arguably, they should also be charged with child abuse and child abandonment.

JMO

 

[RANCH]

Parents of Michigan school shooting suspect taken into custody in Detroit

Comments on charges of involuntary manslaughter from constitutional law expert and George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley, discussing the charges against the parents from a legal perspective.

I found this to be interesting. Michigan Supreme Court. 1923

“Involuntary manslaughter is the killing of another without malice and unintentionally, but in doing some unlawful act not amounting to a felony nor naturally tending to cause death or great bodily harm, or in negligently doing some act lawful in itself, or by the negligent omission to perform a legal duty.” People v Ryczek, 224 Mich 106, 110; 194 NW 609 (1923).

How does this fit with the parents charges in this case? The part that say's "negligently doing some act lawful in itself" may fit. JMO.

https://cite.case.law/mich/224/106/