MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3

[Kristin Esq.]

@Kristin Esq. , from a legal standpoint, how difficult will an insanity defense be to pursue?

I have a hard time with it because although I do believe it's very likely he is mentally ill, I also believe he knew right from wrong. What we know so far leads me to believe this is something he had been thinking about for a while, so premeditated.

How will the trial progress from here?

TIA, I always appreciate your insights.

The defense has the burden of proof with the insanity defense. There will be evaluations on both sides, and I suspect that it's going to come down to competing opinions of the experts.

I also agree that he is mentally ill, but knew right from wrong. I believe the prosecution will show that it was premeditated.

 

[woods]

Insanity defense must fail. He only stopped shooting when confronted by police, at which time he instantly laid down his gun - a sane, wholly rational act. He was fully cognizant enough to know if he did not they would shoot and kill him.

JMO

According to the brief, he pre-planned his surrender so he could be alive to witness the suffering he had caused. It also reveals that he weighed the pros and cons, and weighed alternative acts against desired outcomes in planning for these offenses. I think his own journal will work against him. Oakland County Prosecutor's Office Memo of Law On Placement of Ethan Crumbley Pending Trial | PDF

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

The defense has the burden of proof with the insanity defense. There will be evaluations on both sides, and I suspect that it's going to come down to competing opinions of the experts.

I also agree that he is mentally ill, but knew right from wrong. I believe the prosecution will show that it was premeditated.

Ahhh, yes. The inevitable battle of the shrinks. We'll need lots of popcorn

On a more serious note, I wonder how Ethan's parents reacted to their son's insanity plea? They seemed completely oblivious to their son's mental health issues. JMO

 

[LaborDayRN]

Ahhh, yes. The inevitable battle of the shrinks. We'll need lots of popcorn

On a more serious note, I wonder how Ethan's parents reacted to their son's insanity plea? They seemed completely oblivious to their son's mental health issues. JMO

They're probably so wrapped up in their own troubles that they don't give Ethan a second thought. JMO of course.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

This is a "subscriber's only" feature, so you might not be able to read the entire article. In keeping with WS TOS, I've posted parts of the article that summarize what will be taking place as Ethan's attorneys move forward with an insanity defense for their client.

Why Ethan Crumbley's insanity defense could become 'battle of experts' (detroitnews.com)

...“This is the first step in a long legal road,” Loftin told The Detroit News on Thursday. “I expect he will be referred to a state forensic center for an evaluation this afternoon. But due to COVID, he will likely be at the end of a long line of people, and it could be some time before he actually is evaluated by a doctor. And that will likely be done by a Zoom meeting over the internet.”

People who are believed to be mentally ill are routinely referred to a state forensic center for tests of either mental competency or criminal responsibility. Or both. An examination could take several hours and could be repeated, Loftin said...

Loftin said she and fellow defense attorney Amy Hopp believe Crumbley is mentally competent, meaning he has the ability to understand the charges against him and assist in his defense. But whether he was criminally responsible at the time of the alleged shooting — specifically whether he had the ability to conform his actions to the law or knew the difference between right and wrong — is expected to be an issue in his prosecution, she said...

Whenever a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity is allowed, by Michigan law, a verdict of guilty but mentally ill also must be given. Sentencings in both cases normally involve placement in a secure hospital setting for treatment until the person is deemed not to pose a threat to themselves or others...

 

[Megnut]

IMO Ethan employed great manipulation to effect the massacre. That's not insanity, that's cunning.

JMO

 

[Arkay]

IMO Ethan employed great manipulation to effect the massacre. That's not insanity, that's cunning.

JMO

I completely agree.

As those of us who are not lawyers always say, IANAL, so I'm just commenting from a layperson's point of view. Therefore, those of you who AAL! please tell me if my understanding is too simplistic.

I have always heard that the dividing line for insanity is if the culprit knows what he is doing and knows that what he is doing is wrong.

IMO the fact that Ethan edited his drawings tells me he knew how what he wrote would be perceived, therefore he whitewashed it. Crossing out the evil things he wrote, changing them to things like "I love my life" or whatever, crossing out gun pictures and so on, makes it clear to me that he was finely attuned to know that his drawings and comments looked evil and dangerous, and he actively tried to hide it.

That's beyond the planning that he took, to conceal the gun and go to the bathroom to equip himself privately.

I'm not a lawyer, not a doctor, so this is IMO of course. But I know that insanity doesn't just mean someone screaming that he is Napoleon, but if someone is truly without consciousness of right and wrong. This does not appear to me to be the case.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Michigan Legislature - Section 768.21a

 

[Kristin Esq.]

They're probably so wrapped up in their own troubles that they don't give Ethan a second thought. JMO of course.

I had the same thoughts.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

Just a reminder!

The Crumbleys have a hearing on 2/8 at 8:30AM

Ethan's next hearing is 2/22 @ 2:30PM

 

[Lux et Veritas]

IMO Ethan employed great manipulation to effect the massacre. That's not insanity, that's cunning.

JMO

Indeed. He exhibited total control at all times on the day of the shooting, including and especially during the 1 1/2 hours he waited in the counselor's office for his parents to arrive (and WHY did it take them that long to get there?!).

* His drawing, out in the open on his desk, for anyone to see - as if taunting and toying with his future victims. He clearly wanted it to be seen!

* He said the drawing was part of a video game he was designing (prepared with a quick cover story).

* Expressed "concern" about his homework, requested his science assignment and worked on it while waiting for his parents - all so very normal and non-threatening!

* He never lost control. He made sure not to do or say anything that could be construed as a threat during that 1 1/2 hours. He never broke down and begged for help - he didn't want help.

* He immediately put down his gun when confronted by cops. That alone, says he knew what he was doing was wrong; moreover, he obviously wanted to LIVE and was sane enough to know if he didn't drop the gun they would have killed him.

Mentally ill - absolutely.

"Insanity" - nowhere to be found.

JMO

 

[MrsWatson]

Limit Crumbleys' communication with each other, prosecutor asks judge

The communication between the couple during these meetings, which are video streamed, are a "serious distraction" and are traumatic for the families of the deceased, McDonald said.

Family members of the victims, she said, have asked why the two are allowed personal communications during a court hearing.

 

[Megnut]

Indeed. He exhibited total control at all times on the day of the shooting, including and especially during the 1 1/2 hours he waited in the counselor's office for his parents to arrive (and WHY did it take them that long to get there?!).

* His drawing, out in the open on his desk, for anyone to see - as if taunting and toying with his future victims. He clearly wanted it to be seen!

* He said the drawing was part of a video game he was designing (prepared with a quick cover story).

* Expressed "concern" about his homework, requested his science assignment and worked on it while waiting for his parents - all so very normal and non-threatening!

* He never lost control. He made sure not to do or say anything that could be construed as a threat during that 1 1/2 hours. He never broke down and begged for help - he didn't want help.

* He immediately put down his gun when confronted by cops. That alone, says he knew what he was doing was wrong; moreover, he obviously wanted to LIVE and was sane enough to know if he didn't drop the gun they would have killed him.

Mentally ill - absolutely.

"Insanity" - nowhere to be found.

JMO

Rbbm

I hear people saying it was a cry for help.

No! I think you're spot on, @Lux et Veritas! He didn't want help! He wanted to be left alone to carry out his plan!

As you lay out, he was methodical.

Not insane. In careful possession of his faculties.

He did exactly what he set out to do.

JMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

This is a subscriber's only article, so you might not be able to read all of it.

Surrender was part of accused Oxford shooter's plan, Oakland prosecutor says (detroitnews.com)

Pontiac — The accused Oxford High School shooter's plan included inflicting damage, then surrendering in a bid to survive and admire his work, according to a recent filing by the Oakland County prosecutor.

"The importance of surrendering is that he would not be killed and would be alive to witness the suffering he had caused," Prosecutor Karen McDonald claimed in a January court filing about 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley.

And Crumbley wanted to be remembered, the prosecutor's office said in the Jan. 19 filing made ahead of a hearing this month on whether the teen should remain in Oakland County Jail or be transferred to a juvenile facility while he awaits trial.

The Nov. 30 shooting left Oxford High School students Madisyn Baldwin, Justin Shilling, Hana St. Juliana and Tate Myre dead. Six other students and a teacher were injured...

 

[MrsWatson]

This is a subscriber's only article, so you might not be able to read all of it.

Surrender was part of accused Oxford shooter's plan, Oakland prosecutor says (detroitnews.com)

Pontiac — The accused Oxford High School shooter's plan included inflicting damage, then surrendering in a bid to survive and admire his work, according to a recent filing by the Oakland County prosecutor.

"The importance of surrendering is that he would not be killed and would be alive to witness the suffering he had caused," Prosecutor Karen McDonald claimed in a January court filing about 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley.

And Crumbley wanted to be remembered, the prosecutor's office said in the Jan. 19 filing made ahead of a hearing this month on whether the teen should remain in Oakland County Jail or be transferred to a juvenile facility while he awaits trial.

The Nov. 30 shooting left Oxford High School students Madisyn Baldwin, Justin Shilling, Hana St. Juliana and Tate Myre dead. Six other students and a teacher were injured...

It feels weird to "like" this so I will say thank you for sharing this absolutely chilling information.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Prosecutors want parents of accused Michigan school shooter to halt romantic gestures in court (nbcnews.com)

“The courtroom is not a place for blowing kisses and sending secret signals,” a prosecutor said.

Prosecutors asked a judge to bar the parents of the accused Michigan school shooter from making romantic gestures toward each other in court, saying they're making a "mockery of the crimes they're accused of committing."

Jennifer and James Crumbley, who were each charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter in the Nov. 30 shooting at Oxford High School, were said to have mouthed the words "I love you" during in-person and virtual court hearings on Dec. 14 and Jan. 7, according to a motion filed Tuesday in Oakland County District Court.

The couple also waved at each other and made other non-verbal signals, prosecutors said...

 

[tlcya]

I must say those occasions I have seen them in the courtroom I was disgusted by their exchanges. The almost flirty nature of the interactions feel super surreal and very inappropriate. blech

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I must say those occasions I have seen them in the courtroom I was disgusted by their exchanges. The almost flirty nature of the interactions feel super surreal and very inappropriate. blech

Both Crumbleys seem very immature and self-absorbed. During their initial court appearance, they both blatantly ignored the Court's mask requirement by letting their masks slip below their noses/mouths so they could whisper to each other. The kisses and hand signals were disgraceful during the zoom hearing. Their attorneys need to advise James and Jennifer on proper decorum in Court. JMO

 

[MrsWatson]

James and Jennifer Crumbley seek delay in Oxford school shooting case
According to the filing, the defense has so far received more than 290 gigabytes of material, including tens of thousands of pages of text messages, social media messages, thousands of pictures and more than 70 hours of video.

The videos contain more than 10 hours of "important" interviews of witnesses who are expected to testify at the exam.

More at link about delay request.

 

[LMDlong]

This is a subscriber's only article, so you might not be able to read all of it.

Surrender was part of accused Oxford shooter's plan, Oakland prosecutor says (detroitnews.com)

Pontiac — The accused Oxford High School shooter's plan included inflicting damage, then surrendering in a bid to survive and admire his work, according to a recent filing by the Oakland County prosecutor.

"The importance of surrendering is that he would not be killed and would be alive to witness the suffering he had caused," Prosecutor Karen McDonald claimed in a January court filing about 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley.

And Crumbley wanted to be remembered, the prosecutor's office said in the Jan. 19 filing made ahead of a hearing this month on whether the teen should remain in Oakland County Jail or be transferred to a juvenile facility while he awaits trial.

The Nov. 30 shooting left Oxford High School students Madisyn Baldwin, Justin Shilling, Hana St. Juliana and Tate Myre dead. Six other students and a teacher were injured...

Interesting. Thank you.