MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3

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Prosecutors asked a judge to prevent the parents of the accused Michigan school shooter from making romantic gestures to one another in court, including mouthing "I love you," waving and making other nonverbal signals...

IMO, the prosecutors should, well, put up with it and drive on.

At the end of the day, spouses can seek to emotionally support each other. This should be expected and tolerated unless it is truly disruptive and not just": "Dont like that".

Though I maybe going into hysterics, attempting to hinder spouses from supporting each other gives me bad vibes of Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and Maoist China. These extremist regimes severed family bonds for a variety of purposes.

In short, though their actions may not be liked, they should be expected and tolerated in a Democratic society. This does not mean they need to be given "high fives".
 
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Defendant James Crumbley enters in his prisoner clothes with chains/shackles on, as does Jennifer Crumbley.

The attorneys for the defense are only representing one defendant for the purposes of this examination and argument.

The judge is going over with the defendants the potential conflict with the attorneys, and they are waiving the conflict.

Motion to adjourn -
Defense: Materials weren't received from prosecution, and more discovery was provided Feb 1-4. They wanted a more specific list/shorter becuase it was 30 and then went to 16. They wanted more specifics to better prepare. On Feb. 2 and 4, materials weren't provided in regards to a Dectective. Defense hasn't been able to review the report or video made by the detective. The amount of discovery is at least 67 hours of recordings. In order to visit their clients, they need a court order, a 72 hour PCR test, and then schedule the visit. They were able to schedule visits last week. But they haven't been able to review all the recorded discovery. If it's not in person, it's done with a software that fails and it's limited to 30 minutes and cannot schedule visits back to back. They have a concern there are things that they are missing that are relevant to the prelimary examination. There was a concern regarding text messages that they haven't seen.

Prosectuor: Defense has agreed everything in the binder has been turned over. The expert in computer crimes is going to explain how text messages may be deleted and found. The statement that this is some strategy, they are following the rules. The paralegal gets documents over in 1 day. We have turned over everything that they could have.

Judge: the court allowed the attorneys to meet for apporoximately 45 minutes to meet before the hearing.

Court finds that there is sufficient evidence that was turned over to the defense. Court denies the motion.

Prosecution: Filed a motion that the defendants were making jestures to each other.

Defense: the fact that the prosecutor didn't know, and defense counsel apologizes, they didn't mean to offend Oxford victims. Defense counsel already told them to stop.

Judge: Grant motion as to in court proceedings. Don't have communications with each other, it's disruptive and disrespectful.

Prosecution: They aren't similar situated, there will be different evidence against each defendant.

Defense has preliminary manners: sequestration order becuase there are witnesses that can view the proceedings outside the courtroom via livestream.

Witnesses are sequestered.
 
First Witness: Kira Pennock

Prosecution:
P: How old are you?
A: 25
P: Occupation
A:Own a horse farm; it has boarded horses - people pay them to take care of the horses. Also offer training services.
P: How does it generate income?
A: The boarding side covers expenses the feed, the in water, and necessities and the care. They have a lot of horses. Located in Mettamorrow
P: Do you know Jennifer and James Crumbley.
A: Yes. Witness identifies both.

Kira knows Jennifer better, and she met her a few years ago and met her through the horse world. She doesn't recall the exact year. But she doesn't believe it was more than 3 years ago. She didn't have the business but she had friends at the barn JC had the horse at. Crumbleys started with one horse, and the second horse was purchased was made earlier in 2021. It was an online purchase, the horse was shipped to Michigan. JC wanted a new horse to do some jumping on as the first horse, Shorty, had an injury. So JC bought Billy. One night JC was drinking and told Kira that she bought a horse that cost $5,000. Kira said that the horse showed up in February.

At some point both horses were borded with Kira in June-July 2021. Kira has borded their horses and giving lessons to both Crumbleys and the horses. The board price is $400 per month per horse. Eventually she only had lessons with Crumbley as she didn't sepcialize in western riding. The lessons were 45-60 minutes, 3 times a week, and it cost $35.

Crumbley's would groom their horses, ride them, groomed them and put them away. This took about 3 hours. Kira said that they did have jobs, but she doesn't know what they were or what their hours were. Crumbleys would come around 5pm on the weekdays, and on the weekends they came between 9-11am. Kira has not seen their son at her farm. Kira said she's seen him maybe once or twice at the previous barn.

Crumbleys did provide the fairier (horse pedicure) for their horses and it's $130 each horse. It is the owners responsibility to pay for the vet care if it is needed. James and Jennifer made sure their horses vet care was paid for.

Does Kira know why Ethan didn't come to the barn? Jennifer told Kira that Ethan didn't want to do anyting with the horses. Kira considers Jennifer a friend.

Jennifer had mentioned that she thought James was cheating on her, with looking up singles online. This was around summer of 2021. Jennifer was very upset. She confronted James, and he said that he didn't cheat. Ethan came forward and admitted that it was him that was looking this up.

General Impression of Jennifer - liked how dedicated she was to the horses. She had aspirations of doing competitions. Jennifer always treated Kira and everyone with respect.

Jennifer didn't really talk about her son. Kira doesn't remember anything super positive about Ethan. Jennifer did express concerns: he didn't have any friends, or only one friend, he spent a lot of time online playing games. She thought it was weird he wasn't out doing things like a normal kid. Jennifer did call him weird.

Jennifer didn't consider Ethan normal - she didn't talk about him and when she did, it was about how he didn't do normal kid things.

Kira had contact with James/Jennifer on Nov. 30. James went to the barn to put ointment on Billy's legs - he had mudfever - it's a fungus and it causes scabs. They were concerned about Billy's legs. Kira did not see him, but other workers saw him there. James was there sometime in the morning. She noticed the ointment on Billy's legs around noon.

Kira was in contact with Jennifer via Facebook Messenger.

People's Proposed Exhibit 6: They are the messages that morning of November 30. They are messages between Kira and Jennifer. The messages start at 10:18am and they end Thursday. The messages came from her phone. Kira had sent screenshots of the messages becuause they asked her to. Jennifer did have a lesson planned on the 30th. It was supposed to be around 4:30pm.

Mudfever isn't super serious, but it does need to be taken care of. Billy's legs became swollen, all 4 legs when the mudfever was only on 2 legs.

Jennifer: Had to go to her son's school to meet his counselor. "*advertiser censored* day." Kira asked if everything was okay.

Jennifer said that Ethan is having a rough time because the dog passed, a friend went away and he drew a picture on a math worksheet. Kira said this was not normal - all the violence over the sheet.

Kira was aware that they had guns, but didn't know that the gun was bought for her son. Kira did see the post about the gun being a christmas present, but she wasn't sure when she saw it.

The conversation was then about the horses and Kira said that Ethan may need some horse therapy. Ethan was supposed to go with Jennifer to the lesson that night because Ethan couldn't be left alone.

Jennifer said that Ethan needs something. Kira said "let's make him a cowboy."

Kira heard about the shooting when she got a call from one of her student's moms in the early afternoon. Kira knows people/kids in the school.

When she heard about the shooting it wasn't public who was responsible for it. Kira thought it was Ethan.

Jennifer said at 2:36pm that she won't be there tonight.

Kira was texting Jennifer a photo of Billy.

That day - Jennifer said that she needs to sellher horses. Stat. On Tuesday, Nov. 30. She didn't say why she needed to sell her horses.

Kira is trying to help sell the horses.

People's Proposed 7: The math sheet with the drawing.

Kira was compassionate in the beginning. She wanted more information. Kira told her to just be honest about anything and everything.

Conversations with Jennifer were fewer and far between.

Jennifer never talked about taking Ethan to the doctor; same with James. Neither talked about getting their son thearpy.

The cell coverage at the farm is better than other areas, but there are areas where the service is spotty. The Crumbley's did have cell phones with them.

Defense
Kira has verizon. Kira doesn't know about service for other companies. There are some areas people get service, and other areas that they don't.

The farm is on 51 acres.

Groveland was the barn where Kira and Jennifer boarded their horses.

Horses and training is a majority of what they talk about. Jennifer doesn't talk to her about when she goes to the doctor herself, or if James went to the doctor. Jennifer never gave details about her work, but said James had been through a few jobs. Kira talks to Jen more about horses than Ethan.

Jennifer never talked to Kira about the comments on the math sheet. She only sent the picture. Kira was concerned Ethan may be suicidal, but not before November 30.

Kira didn't think Ethan was homicidal. Kira didn't have reaon to believe Ethan needed medical help.

Kira could see Jen would want her son at the barn and riding. But a lot of boys don't like to ride horses, so Kira didn't think it was serious. Kira and Jen do kid back and forth.

Some come to the barn once a week, or everyday. It's not unusual to be at the barn 3 times a week.

Kira and Jen communicated about Kira buying both Billy and Shorty and other horse related items. They were discussing how the horses would need to be signed over. Kira could tell Jennifer was upset.

Jennifer said that her son ruined so many lives today - Kira understood that to mean Ethan was the shooter.

Kira agrees it sounds like Ethan was a troubled kid. Kira said that it wasn't Jennifer's fault. Kira never got the feeling that Jen and James had issues with their son. Kira tried to reassure Jennifer - to get rest, to stay calm.

Jennifer messaged "I wish we had warnings, he's a good kid." Kira thought there were some times of signs esp since Jen said in the past that Ethan didn't go out.

Kira wrote there were probably warnings that was missed, and hindsight is 20/20.

Kira was aware that Ethan had one friend he was close to. Kira could see Jen's facebook about the family spending time together - going camping and places on the weekend.

Kira understands he plays a lot of video games but she didn't think it was problematic.

After Kira was aware that it was Ethan who was the shooter, Kira and Jen attempted to talk to each other on the phone. Jennifer uses a trac-phone.

Kira was concerned with Jennifer coming to the farm because she didn't want Jennifer to take things that were owned by other borders or herself. Kira was concerned for the safety of others if the Crumbleys came to the farm, because Jen showed her the threatening messages she received.

Jen said that they were headed to a safe place for a couple of days - a hotel or motel. Kira says that she did care about Jennifer and she would take care of the horses.

Kira didn't follow up with her about anything other than seen in the texts. The friendship was limited to horses and some friendly chit-chat. There was nothing that alarmed Kira to have to contact law enforcement about Ethan. Jennifer appreared to be concerned about what was going on.

Defense on behalf of James
Kira didn't speak to James very often, and if she did it was about horse related matters. James didn't tell her if he or anyone else went to the doctor. Communications were about horses and horse related matters.

Kira didn't reach out to James after Jen showed her the picture. Kira wasn't concerned about Ethan's mental health.

REDIRECT
Kira kept the conversations to friendly chit-chat, but Jennifer did mention that she had a feeling that her James having an affair, that Ethan was weird, about how Ethan didn't like horses.

Did both parents have to go to the barn together 3 times a week for 3 hours at a time.

Jennifer was very concerned, but she still had time to text about mudfever, and the lesson.

At the time Kira said don't worry - Kira didn't know that the gun was bought for ethan, Kira didn't know that the school said he needed therapy; Kira didn't know about the text to Ethan about the bullet search; Kira didn't know that James called 911 saying he thought his son was the shooter.
 
Next Witness: Andrew Smith

This witness is a lawyer. Now, he works as COO for a real estate company.

He knows Jennifer Crumbley but not James. She began working for the company approx.5 years ago,he was her supervios for 1.5-2 years. She was a marketing director. She had standard hours 40 hours a week, 8 a day. She has worked from home.

He had contact with Jen on the 30th. A text on the phone, at around 10am.

People's proposed 8 - text convo between him and Jen.

First heared at 10:05am and he was driving. She said she had to go to her son's school to meet with the counselor. She also sent a picture of the math worksheet.

He believes he saw her at work around noon that day.

He didn't know anything about Ethan. She talked about her horses and maybe a little travel.

He asked her how things were and Jen said her son needed some counseling and the dog passed away. Jen said she felt like she was failing him or a failure.

They had a meeting scheduled for that afternoon. Jennifer didn't have to go to that meeting.

Jennifer wouldn't have been disciplined if she didn't return to work. For family issues, they would always be granted time.

Jennifer didn't request to leave but she did leave that day.

Jennifer was screaming, down the hall. She said that there was an active shooter at her son's soon and she left.

Later that day, she texted him and called. The text was about 1:23pm, which was about 20-30 minutes after she left.

She wrote "The gun is gone and so are the bullets." He didn't know that there was a gun in the house.

First phone call was before the second text. She called his cell phone. He went to the HR director's office. She said that she was trying to get to the school and the gun was missing. He told her to call the police and she said that her husband already did.

She texted that he's going to kill himself, he must be th shooter. She needs a lawyer. Ethan did it.

She called him again around 2:15pm. She said that she saw her son at the police station and asked for a recommendation for a lawyer. He couldn't think of a lawyer off the top of his head.

Text at 3:39pm - I need my job, please don't judge me for what my son did. He thought she would be more worried about what was going on than her job.

DEFENSE FOR JEN
He knew that she had a son named Ethan. She had photos of him in her office playing soccer.

Jennifer is concientious about her work - she was professional.

Her director of marketing was a newer role of 1.5 years.

He wasn't sure what she meant when she said that she felt like a failure - she seemed down.

Jennifer having to go to the school wasn't something that consistently disrupted work.

Jennifer was frantic on the call, she seemed alarmed.

Never discussed Ethan being suicidal, a shooter, or homicidal with Jen. Never talked about Ethan being a school shooter.

He doesn't know if Jennifer was the breadwinner. Jennifer said that James was laid off or in between jobs. It wasn't strange that she didn't talk about Ethan.

Smith was in complete shock. On the phone, she sounded frantic and in panic mode.

He thought it was strange she was worried about her job. He figured she was worried about her child. She could have been worried about more than one thing at the same time.

REDIRECT

He did look at the math worksheet on the afternoon, in detail, after he learned what happened.

He said it was troubled and concerning. It's a concerning messages, it looks like someone crying for help.

FOLLOW UP
It could be a concern of suicide.

He did see the picture of the gun. He didn't know it was identical to the one that was bought.
 
Third Witness: Kathy Poliquin

Kathy works for a real estate management company. She's the director of Human resources.

She knows Jennifer but not James. Met almost 5 years ago. Started as a marketing assistant; when she was terminated she was a director of marketing.

Interactions were minimal. Minimally saw her outside of works. Few facebook texts. They were friendly. Shared minimal personal information.

Kathy knows that she loves horses, helped at ski patrol, and told her when her husband lost a job and took a job with door dash. Kathy did know she had a son.

(I missed a lot here because I had some phone calls from my son's school - he's sick)

Jennifer wanted to come back to work later in the week after the shooting and they told her she was on administrative leave.

Jennifer never talked about her son needing to go to the doctor, but she did talk to about her horses neededing to see the vet.

DEFENSE FOR JEN
Jen was very upset and she was trying to get to the school. the roads were closed off. They told her to call the police, the gun was missing. Jen said James already called them.

Jen was upset, hysterical, panicked and talking fast.

The check stubs conversation she was already at the school. She was upset but not as hysterical as she was earlier.

Jennifer wanted to come back to work half days the following week.

Kathy's relationship was not personal, it was professional.

Jennifer has family photographs on her desk at work.

Kathy said that the post regarding the guns on facebook was inappropriate, but Kathy doesn't like guns.

REDIRECT

Kathy was surprised she was asking about her job after her son murdered people hours earlier.

When she cleaned out Jennifer's desk she was slightly surprised at what she found - a picture I think. Defense called to approach the judge.

Kathy found a small photo of her husband in the desk drawer upside. There was a small picture of her son on the bulletin board and a picture of a horse.

Sorry I missed so much with this witness.
 
Horse farm owner testifies Jennifer Crumbley confided son 'weird' (detroitnews.com)

Rochester Hills — Kira Pennock said her friend, Jennifer Crumbley, sent her a text message in the aftermath of a Nov. 30 shooting rampage at Oxford High School, telling her "my son ruined so many lives today."

The comments came hours after Pennock said Crumbley, the mother of 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley, had sent her a screenshot of a troubling drawing Crumbley's son was caught drawing on a math assignment.

Crumbley told Pennock, the 25-year-old owner of a Metamora horse farm, that morning that she'd had a "s--- day," and "just had to go to my son's school and meet his counselor."...
 
If this case goes to trial, based on the testimony of the prosecution's witnesses so far, there isn't much of a case against the Crumbley's, in my opinion. I didn't see anything even close to extreme in the "evidence" that the prosecutor tried to present.

The witnesses so far have painted a picture of Jennifer as very professional, hard-working, who was well-respected by her supervisor and HR. The defense lawyer did a good job of clarifying the responses of the witnesses.

I do wish the defense lawyer would go up to the podium when questioning the witnesses, but understand that she has a lot of documents to look through and digest, and needs to stay at the desk to sort through them while the witnesses are being cross-examined. Other than that, I think she is doing a very good job in her representation of Jennifer Crumbley.
 
Oxford shooting suspect's mom felt she failed her son, witness says

On the morning Jennifer Crumbley met Oxford school officials about her son's behavior, she texted a horse farm owner that she was having a "*advertiser censored* day," that her son "couldn't be left alone" and that she would still make her horseback riding lesson that night, a witness testified Tuesday.
****

Jennifer Crumbley's boss, Andrew Smith, also testified Tuesday about his communications with the mother on the morning of the shooting. Smith said Jennifer Crumbley texted him about having to leave work to attend a meeting involving her son.

When she returned to work, Smith said, he asked her how she was doing. She told him that her son needed some help.
 
If this case goes to trial, based on the testimony of the prosecution's witnesses so far, there isn't much of a case against the Crumbley's, in my opinion. I didn't see anything even close to extreme in the "evidence" that the prosecutor tried to present.

The witnesses so far have painted a picture of Jennifer as very professional, hard-working, who was well-respected by her supervisor and HR. The defense lawyer did a good job of clarifying the responses of the witnesses.

I do wish the defense lawyer would go up to the podium when questioning the witnesses, but understand that she has a lot of documents to look through and digest, and needs to stay at the desk to sort through them while the witnesses are being cross-examined. Other than that, I think she is doing a very good job in her representation of Jennifer Crumbley.

There are still a lot more witnesses.

Also - I think the prosecution has done a good job establishing that the Crumbleys seem to care more about their horses than their son. moo.
 
Thank you @Kristin Esq. ! really appreciate you. I am curious, I don't think I have heard much, if anything, about this dog that died. Dare I ask how? Has anyone asked how?

I'm curious about the dog's death, too. When, exactly, did the dog die and under what circumstances? Had the animal been sick, or did the dog pass suddenly? I'd like to know more about the dog's death, and, yes, I'm curious about whether or not Ethan might have been involved. JMO
 
...I do wish the defense lawyer would go up to the podium when questioning the witnesses, but understand that she has a lot of documents to look through and digest, and needs to stay at the desk to sort through them while the witnesses are being cross-examined. Other than that, I think she is doing a very good job in her representation of Jennifer Crumbley.

<respectfully snipped>

Both defense attorneys appear to be "communicating" with their respective clients via legal pads that were provided to James and Jennifer. The defendants are involved in the courtroom proceedings and are probably writing questions or comments on their legal pads, perhaps making notes of questions to ask witnesses or comment on their responses. If the attorneys spoke at the podium, they would not be able to communicate with their clients without having to move back and forth to their seats at the table. JMO
 
Fourth Witness: Amanda Holland

Employed at a real estate management company. She is an administrative assistant to Andrew Smith.

She knows Jennifer Crumbley but not James Crumbley. She was across the hall from Jennifer's office. They were not friends. They were friendly co-workers. Never socialized outside the office. They interacted on a daily basis at work.

They did share about personal lives, but Jen shared more. Jen told her about marital issues. Jen did talk about James by name. 2021 is when it came up. There would be loud phone calls occassionally. The door would be kept open sometimes.

Jen told her both Jen and James had been seeing other people. Jen wasn't happy about it at first, and then it seemed like it wasn't an issue. They had separated for a moment, but then they got back together. Separated in 2021. They didn't separate households.

Jen spoke about an extramarital affair. She didn't tell Amanda who it was. She told Amanda after that she saw this man. Jennifer wasn't at work in the morning, Jennifer mentioned errands, and then she saw someone that morning. The man would pick her up and they would go across the street from the office to Costco.

She didn't talk abou ther son often, but she did talk about the horses. They would go there after work, and how she purchased a new horse. Also, a lot of yard work and house work.

Ethan overheard fights.

Amanda and Jen are friends on facebook. They never talked about guns. On November 30 she did see the post about the gun for Ethan's christmas present.

On Nov. 29 she got a message from the school, didn't go, didn't seem concerned. Her demeanor was normal and calm. SHe didn't say what she would do about the message.

Jen would say her son was quiet. Amanda gathered he was quiet and reserved. Jen mentioned he had a difficult time when his friend went away. Jen was concerned he would be lonely as that was his only friend.

Jen would tell her that she was going to the barn. Amanda thinks that Jen went almost daily.

Jen took a phone call about her son on Nov. 30. The first call was from the school, there was an issue at school. She then called James. She asked him to go to the school to check on the situation.

The writings on the worksheet was scary that Ethan would draw that. Jen agreed.

Amanda said that she felt that Jen was sarcastic when she said she was a failure. Amanda said she should have brought Ethan home.

[I Missed some because of my kids]

Jen didn't tell her if they took Ethan to the casino.

DEFENSE FOR JEN

There were conversations aboutlots of different topics, not just about Jennifer's marriage. Jen wasn't giving Amanda a play by play as to what was going on.

Amanda only knows that there was a message from the school, not the context of the message. The message on the 29th.

Amanda wasn't aware of extracurriular activities, Ethan being a referee, not of the summer classes. She never met Ethan in person. KNowledge is limited as to what Jen told her.

It was almost everyday that Jen said she was going to the barn after work. Other than that, Amanda didn't know what else she was doing at night and on the weekend. She did see Jen's facebook page where they went camping and on trips.

Spoke to Jennifer briefly on the 30th. She heard a phone call from James about a school shooter. This was Amanda's first knowledge of the shooting at Oxford. Jen showed Amanda the photo on the 30th.

Jennifer seemed concerned about the drawing. Jen told her that the Crumbleys left Ethan at school. Amanda was not aware that the school told Jennifer that Ethan was not a threat to anyone.

Defense is asking Amanda how old her child is because Amanda said that she would have taken a child home.

Amanda didn't call the school about the drawing; Amanda didn't do anything other than saying she would have taken her son home.

Amanda didn't know a school shooting was going to take place just from that paper.

Jen told her that the School wasnted Ethan in counseling. They didn't discuss it further as to whether or not Jen would get counseling.

[My mom called me while Amanda was testifying]

I missed redirect and whatever argument happened after.

 
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