MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3

[MrsWatson]

School Gave Ethan Crumbley's Parents the 'Option' to Leave Him in School Before Massacre; Said Accused Murderer Was 'Not A Threat to Anyone': Defense

 

[LAMARQ]

That could well be the case. In my state, NY, we are actually forbidden from doing that. We MUST inform the guidance counselor, principal or assistant principal and only THEY are authorized to call LE or Child Protection. We would get in trouble for usurping their roles and making a judgment call we are not considered qualified to make.

However, I'm trying to picture how that would work if in my state, teachers were obligated to make the call themselves. I certainly couldn't halt class and make that call in front of other students. I couldn't make that call in front of the perpetrator, either, because who knows what the reaction would be if that put him over the edge while in class? Then I also can't see waiting until I had a free period, while letting it slide by in the meantime. IMO it has to be handled immediately and that's why admin or a counselor, who also have training in crisis intervention, are supposed to do that.


ETA: at least in my school, we weren't even allowed to call 911 if there were some kind of medical emergency. We had to call administration and they'd have to call.
THAT is something I've never understood. We are acting in loco parentis, seconds count, but those were the rules. I'm recently retired but I don't think it's changed.

BBM I'm a principal's secretary at a school in NY and we 're told over and over it 's the individual's responsibility who witnessed whatever is concerning to make the call to CPS. The staff member usually seeks guidance from the principal, but the individual needs to make the report.

 

[kaen]

I taught 8th grade for 25 years, so thousands upon thousands of 14- year olds were under my care during the day.

We are mandated reporters, which meant that we absolutely were required to report anything suspicious or dangerous up the chain of command. It seems to me that the teacher did that. If he or she reported to his or her superior the reason why the student was being sent to the office, then the teacher fulfilled the duty of mandated reporter. I'm certain that a report was made, because you can't just send a child to the office without an explanation. The counselor or administration seem to be the ones who dropped the ball, IMO.

I cannot see how the teacher should be sued. That person is on the front lines and reported it up the chain. If admin had followed through, that teacher would be the hero.

As a teacher/school counselor/administrator in CT and now in NY, my training is that I cannot transfer my duty to report to another person (up the chain of command).

Mandated reporting in most states (including NY) don't let you off the hook for giving your info and letting others up the chain of command decide without reporting yourself. You must know if a report is filed and best advice is to make that report yourself. In NYS there are teachers and lower ranking admins who have been disciplined with the possibility of being stripped of the their certification and were open to charges based on not reporting.

(United Ed. Association in Texas says: ...... You must report....It is not enough just to tell the nurse, counselor, or administrator. United Educators Association of Texas – Right Here, Right Now)

That said, on the day of the shooting, the teacher was still within the mandated reporting window of time when a report had to be legally submitted because the child was with other staff and not in immediate danger.

 

[kaen]

BBM I'm a principal's secretary at a school in NY and we 're told over and over it 's the individual's responsibility who witnessed whatever is concerning to make the call to CPS. The staff member usually seeks guidance from the principal, but the individual needs to make the report.

My training as well. IT is not legal for an administration to ask that you report to them and they report. Each person is mandated and the duty does not transfer. There are cases in NY where teachers have not reported believing that the administration did and no report was filed. People have lost their jobs in these instances.


From NYSED.gov (: Nonpublic Schools : SOMS : P-12 : NYSED)

Q: Before making a report to the Statewide Central Register of Child Abuse and Maltreatment, is a mandated reporter in a school legally permitted to first ask permission from the person in charge of the school?



A: No. Section 413(1)(b) of the Social Services Law provides that when a mandated reporter is required to make a report (which would be when the mandated reporter has reasonable cause to suspect that a child has been abused or maltreated), the mandated reporter must make the report. After making the report, the mandated reporter must notify the person in charge of the school that the report was made. That notification comes after the report was made, not before.

Q: If a mandated reporter in a school has reasonable cause to suspect that a child has been abused or maltreated, mentions to the person in charge of the school that the mandated reporter plans to call the Statewide Central Register of Child Abuse and Maltreatment (SCR), and the person in charge of the school tells the mandated reporter not to call the SCR, is the mandated reporter relieved of the responsibility to call the SCR?



A: No. The mandated reporter responsibility lies with the mandated reporter. If there is more than one mandated reporter who has the same information about the suspected abuse or maltreatment, one of the mandated reporters can make the call on behalf of all of the mandated reporters in the school who have the same information, but one of them must call the SCR. Unless a mandated reporter knows that a call was made to the SCR about the abuse or maltreatment that the mandated reporter has reasonable cause to suspect, then a mandated reporter who does not call the SCR has violated his or her mandated reporter responsibility. Pursuant to Section 420 of the Social Services Law, a mandated reporter who fails to report is guilty of a class A misdemeanor and is civilly liable for any damages proximately caused by the failure to report.

 

[Arkay]

@kaen @LAMARQ

Your responses are very interesting to me, as you both have worked in schools in NY state as well.

I know for certain that in my 25 years at just one school, we were absolutely required to report, (of course, since we are after all mandated reporters), but always to the assistant principal or principal, and also to the guidance counselor. I've been under three principals during my quarter century at my school, and it's always been the same.

Your posts made me wonder if it's because I'm in NYC, which of course has its own union apart from the state, and we do have a lot of different rules since mayoral school control is specific to our city. Each chancellor who comes in also has his or her own chancellor's regulations, which thoroughly guide our actions.

Therefore, I searched online and found the latest NYC chancellor's regs which apparently superseded the most recent of 2016. The regs DO say that the teacher must report directly. This is astonishing to me since we were taught very firmly, including in the child abuse classes we must take to become licensed, that we go up the chain of administration.

I retired in 2018. I don't recall having to report anything in my last two years, so if the changes since 2016 required the teacher to directly report, it didn't come up for me. NYC now has a new mayor and a new chancellor, who will rewrite the regs again.

I hope everyone is made quite aware of the procedures in all states and that the staff is well-informed. The well-being of our students is so often in our hands.

 

[kaen]

@kaen @LAMARQ

Your responses are very interesting to me, as you both have worked in schools in NY state as well.

I know for certain that in my 25 years at just one school, we were absolutely required to report, (of course, since we are after all mandated reporters), but always to the assistant principal or principal, and also to the guidance counselor. I've been under three principals during my quarter century at my school, and it's always been the same.

Your posts made me wonder if it's because I'm in NYC, which of course has its own union apart from the state, and we do have a lot of different rules since mayoral school control is specific to our city. Each chancellor who comes in also has his or her own chancellor's regulations, which thoroughly guide our actions.

Therefore, I searched online and found the latest NYC chancellor's regs which apparently superseded the most recent of 2016. The regs DO say that the teacher must report directly. This is astonishing to me since we were taught very firmly, including in the child abuse classes we must take to become licensed, that we go up the chain of administration.

I retired in 2018. I don't recall having to report anything in my last two years, so if the changes since 2016 required the teacher to directly report, it didn't come up for me. NYC now has a new mayor and a new chancellor, who will rewrite the regs again.

I hope everyone is made quite aware of the procedures in all states and that the staff is well-informed. The well-being of our students is so often in our hands.

I have all NYS training and am in NYC DOE (for the moment). Since I have been in a counseling training program (2013) training from the state has been what is the current requirements. IN the 90s in CT the guidance was talk to your GC or principal but that changed in 2001 or 2002 with mandated reporting staying with the person who received the disclosure or saw the evidence. The issues were that the more hands that looked at issues the more likely a call was not made and children were at risk--- which makes sense. We can always talk ourselves out of doing the uncomfortable thing. States have gotten clearer--mandated reports are duty bound to report--not assess, not to think or rethink, not to be an investigator. With that in mind the states (CT and NY) that I am involved with are always clear that they are investigators and determine what is actionable and what is not.

I have had this drilled into my head in every class, at every training and by my supervisors as well.


In the case of this school, if what the defense is saying is correct that the parents were given an option, then I think that it is fair and just that civil suits go forward against the district and the individuals. Everything this kid showed to the school officials should have had warning lights flashing and horns blaring in their heads that this could be a very volatile and dangerous situation---if not in that moment, at any moment in near future. These deaths were avoidable on so many levels. IMHO, the folks that made these decisions should be out of a job--- JMHO.

 

[Murder She Wrote]

Fifth Witness: Detective Edward Wagrowski

People's proposed 22: Chat convo between Ethan and Jennifer. Starts on March 6, 2021.

From EC to JC:
- Can you get home now?
- There is osmoeone in the house I think (7:50pm)
- Someone walked into the bathroom and flushed the toilet and left the light on.
- I thought it was you
- There's no on in the house tho, dude my door just slammed.
-Maybe it's just my paranoia.
- But when are you going to get home?
NO RESPONSE ON THAT DATE.

The next day: 3/10 at 10:21am
Where's your dad?

Proposed 23: more messages.

3/17/2021 6:03PM
From EC to JC:
- Okay the house is now haunted
- some weird **** happened and I'm scared
- I got some videos
- And a picture of a demon
- I'm not joking it ****** up the kitchen
- I'm just going to be outsider for a while.
- Can you at least text back (6:29pm)
No response from Jen on that date.

3/19 at 4:11pm - Reponse
Where is your dad?

3/19
JC: Text me when your done.
JC Done yet?

3/20:
From EC: I finished picking up the room
- I finished until the clothes fell off the shelf
- This only happens when I'm home alone.
- I picked the clothes back up though

What was Jen doing during that time? Horseback riding.

People's proposed 28: FB Messenger thread between James and Jennifer.

3/19 at 9:37 - Jen to James, you away? Ethan awake?
James; um yeah
Jen: How is he?
James; He woke up looking like he had way too much to drink last night.
Jen: He was really worked up and out of control so I can see why.
James: All he needs to do is eat, work hard to get his stuf back.
They were going to fast for me to type all it out!

I totally thought you were giving him a zanax last night, no melotonin.
Jen: he hasn't had it before, should only give him half.
Jen: Does he remember what he did
James: dude I'm working on a demo right now.

Jennifer writes to Ethan on 11/30 at 1:22pm.
Ethan don't do it.

On Ethan's phone - a text message between EC and another juvenile (They aren't naming). Exhibit 29.

4/5/2021 on this thread: (12:38am)
EC to friend - I'm going to ask my parents to go to the dr tomorrow or tuesday again.
- but this time I'm going to tell them about the voices.
- I only told them about the people I saw
Response: Okay.

EC to friend:
- like I am mentally and physically dying

This is heartbreaking. Ethan was, and is, mentally ill. He could feel his mind unravel and his family didn't/couldn't help. I believe a lot of it come from ignorance.
Oh how I wish mental illness was better understood, diagnosed, and treated.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I apologize for all spelling errors or other errors and anything I missed!

NO apologies necessary! You're a gem, @Kristin Esq. for providing us with all these summaries / transcripts! Your time and effort are outstanding. Your continuing contributions are a great service to all here at WS. THANK YOU so much for your hard work and dedication. You're a treasure and we're very fortunate that you're one of our resident attorneys.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I'm hearing plenty of testimony indicating that these parents knew their son had been experiencing some serious mental heath issues for quite some time, yet purchased a gun for their son as a xmas present.

I just cannot shake the (terrible) thought that they may have purchased the gun for severely troubled EC, hoping he would "take care" of their #1 problem - HIM. Maybe not as a coldly deliberate act but subconsciously? They did indeed abandon him after the shooting.

JMO

 

[MrsWatson]

I just cannot shake the (terrible) thought that they may have purchased the gun for severely troubled EC, hoping he would "take care" of their #1 problem - HIM. Maybe not as a coldly deliberate act but subconsciously? They did indeed abandon him after the shooting.

JMO

Some of my thoughts as well.

I'm very interested in what Ethan's older half-brother will be testifying to, about the atmosphere in the home and why he left.

 

[MrsWatson]

911 call James Crumbley made

James Crumbley called 911 after the Oxford shootings. Listen here.

 

[Tabulator]

Kristin Esq. - Girl. YOU ROCK! Thank you so much for the posts - Your effort and time are very appreciated. We are, indeed, extremely fortunate for your presence in this forum!

What really struck me today was EC's text messages with his mother regarding the bullet issue. The tone of that exchange was very revealing - almost like it was EC and mom against the school. Like it was no big deal he was looking up bullets during class - the teachers overreacted and they need to mind their own business. Mom's reaction to the school report? "I'm not mad and you need to learn how to not get caught."

OMG!!!!

I got the impression that EC had gotten in trouble at school before and that his mother believed her son's explanation - that the school was wrong in their assessment and the seriousness of the bullet issue. Whether she didn't want to be bothered or felt the school overreacted, we may never know, but that exchange really rattled me.

The casual reaction JC has when explaining it to EC says it all - Of course you are a good kid and that school needs to stop picking on you.

I also get the impression that her dealings with the school were frequent and she was tired of dealing with it. If she had that attitude when she went to the school the day of the shooting, it doesn't surprise me that she didn't take EC home. Because if she did believe the school's interpretation and started taking EC's behavior and actions more seriously, it would mean she couldn't sweep it under the rug anymore - she would have to help her son and really confront his issues. This was something she seemed completely unwilling to do.

I apologize if my explanation isn't clearly stated, but her willingness to ignore an obviously troubling incident really scares me.
JC and EC's text exchange is an example of what I have seen and experienced many times with parents - I am a teacher and administrator. She will blame anyone and everyone (except her son) for his behavior and she will use any excuse available to justify why he is not at fault.
This is all my opinion, of course, and I am very interested in what others think. Every school shooting is a horrible tragedy. So very sad.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

I'm a retired teacher of English. Normally I scream internally when I see spelling errors; it's an occupational hazard remnant.

What I see in your transcripts, @Kristin Esq. , is a very diligent and tireless person who's dedicated the day to giving us this information. It must have been difficult to keep up, and in this case I see any errors as a badge of honor. Thank you for what you've provided.

I hope your son is feeling well.

Thank you very much

 

[Kristin Esq.]

This is heartbreaking. Ethan was, and is, mentally ill. He could feel his mind unravel and his family didn't/couldn't help. I believe a lot of it come from ignorance.
Oh how I wish mental illness was better understood, diagnosed, and treated.

I'd like to know if they ever took him to the dr after he told his friend that he was going to ask his parents to take him to the dr, stating that this time he would tell them about the voices.

 

[MrsWatson]

I'd like to know if they ever took him to the dr after he told his friend that he was going to ask his parents to take him to the dr, stating that this time he would tell them about the voices.

I'm guessing that is going to be a no.

Jennifer seemed much more concerned with her horses than her son. Just like buying him a gun for an early Christmas gift, she thought taking him horseback riding, although he had shown zero interest, was some sort of answer, instead of getting him professional help.

It's hard to imagine your child telling you he was hearing voices and believed there was a demon in the house and asking when you'll be home, and doing nothing. Not even responding to the text. That would set off all sorts of alarm bells for most parents. Then, there is the drawing. Again, that would be a big red flag to most parents.

I think the school dropped the ball by allowing him to stay, but his parents are also the ones who chose to do nothing in the first place by ignoring his previous cries for help. It seems clear from testimony so far, Jennifer knew he had issues.

MOO

 

[Gardenista]

The lackadaisical tone of whoever it was that left a message for JC about the bullets seemed off to me. I wonder if that same tone was used in the meeting with EC and his parents.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

I'm guessing that is going to be a no.

Jennifer seemed much more concerned with her horses than her son. Just like buying him a gun for an early Christmas gift, she thought taking him horseback riding, although he had shown zero interest, was some sort of answer, instead of getting him professional help.

It's hard to imagine your child telling you he was hearing voices and believed there was a demon in the house and asking when you'll be home, and doing nothing. Not even responding to the text. That would set off all sorts of alarm bells for most parents. Then, there is the drawing. Again, that would be a big red flag to most parents.

I think the school dropped the ball by allowing him to stay, but his parents are also the ones who chose to do nothing in the first place by ignoring his previous cries for help. It seems clear from testimony so far, Jennifer knew he had issues.

MOO

You're probably right, they never took him. They did seem to care more about their horses than they did for Ethan. Not only are they horseback riding while he's texting about the demons, but also taking selfies! I can see defense argument that maybe there wasn't service at the farm. However, as soon as they started driving home, they could have messaged him back. While we don't know what was discussed when they got home, I'm sure the defnese will argue that they ddi talk to him about the text messages.

 

[Tabulator]

The lackadaisical tone of whoever it was that left a message for JC about the bullets seemed off to me. I wonder if that same tone was used in the meeting with EC and his parents.

Have we heard the message that was left? JC's response was irritation when she was texting with EC - That was way off, but I would be extremely interested in hearing the actual voice-mail left by the school.

 

[Gardenista]

Have we heard the message that was left? JC's response was irritation when she was texting with EC - That was way off, but I would be extremely interested in hearing the actual voice-mail left by the school.

Yes, they played it yesterday during the hearing. It definitely raised my eyebrows.

 

[Sundog]

Yes, they played it yesterday during the hearing. It definitely raised my eyebrows.

I heard it, and whoever made the call for the school really downplayed the situation, and seemed apologetic for calling, and ended the call on an upbeat note by wishing them a happy holiday.

It didn't sound like something that the school was very concerned about.