MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #3
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MrsWatson
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Testimony: Oxford shooting suspect plotted to rape, kill classmate
Holy cats.
In addition to allegedly plotting a mass shooting at his school, Ethan Crumbley outlined a plan to stalk, rape, torture and ultimately kill a female classmate, journaled about surviving the mass shooting so that he could witness the suffering, and wrote about who his first victim would be, a prosecutor disclosed in court Tuesday.
The prosecutor also disclosed an excerpt from the teenager’s journal, in which he allegedly expressed his admiration for Adolph Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer, writing: “When you die, you need to be remembered for a long time.”
The 15-year-old suspect also described in his journal what type of gun he needed to shoot up his school and that he would surrender so that he could “witness the pain and suffering he caused,” the prosecutor stated.
Holy cats.
In addition to allegedly plotting a mass shooting at his school, Ethan Crumbley outlined a plan to stalk, rape, torture and ultimately kill a female classmate, journaled about surviving the mass shooting so that he could witness the suffering, and wrote about who his first victim would be, a prosecutor disclosed in court Tuesday.
The prosecutor also disclosed an excerpt from the teenager’s journal, in which he allegedly expressed his admiration for Adolph Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer, writing: “When you die, you need to be remembered for a long time.”
The 15-year-old suspect also described in his journal what type of gun he needed to shoot up his school and that he would surrender so that he could “witness the pain and suffering he caused,” the prosecutor stated.
Kristin Esq.
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CROSS:
The two juveniles can talk to each other.
His declining rec should be in the records.
REC: he would go to recreation by himself. It's a gym.
There was a staffing shortage at the jail due to Covid. There's roughly 250 employees at the jail.
Missed some bc my son needed me.
The Jail is required to provide daily education. They are responsible with specific parameters and they are going through that.
The jail is not certified for an education program for juveniles. No teachers on staff to come in for juveniles.
No one has shown EC how to use the app.
Corporation counsel has been involved to get school supplies.
Nothing has been provided to EC for education. He's not getting any HS credit toward a diploma.
EC's lights are on 24/7 and that's the only place he can be.
Those weeks he was on constant watch, the jail will supply soap, toothpaste. Towels are provided.
JUDGE:
How long will the behavior watch last? Based on the circumstances, and who he is, that it would be maintained for awhile. He's a high profile inmate.
REBUTTAL
EC's parents are still his legal guardians. They are responsible for his education regarless of their incarceration status.
EC has been able to access games, his messaging, his scanned mail. And this is all on the same platform as Conn academy.
Meals to EC: he's receiving a Kosher meal. It's a cold meal. It's separate and distinct from the other inmates.
The other juvenile is receiving adolescent pack. (What is this? moo)
EC is assigned to his row because of his status as a juvenile, and it's sight and sound separation from adult prisoners.
Oakland county jail has never detained a school shooter. As a facility, they are still working out the details. Not concerned for EC's safety.
DEFENSE FOLLOW UP
No school shooter, but other people accused of murder and serious life offenses.
The two juveniles can talk to each other.
His declining rec should be in the records.
REC: he would go to recreation by himself. It's a gym.
There was a staffing shortage at the jail due to Covid. There's roughly 250 employees at the jail.
Missed some bc my son needed me.
The Jail is required to provide daily education. They are responsible with specific parameters and they are going through that.
The jail is not certified for an education program for juveniles. No teachers on staff to come in for juveniles.
No one has shown EC how to use the app.
Corporation counsel has been involved to get school supplies.
Nothing has been provided to EC for education. He's not getting any HS credit toward a diploma.
EC's lights are on 24/7 and that's the only place he can be.
Those weeks he was on constant watch, the jail will supply soap, toothpaste. Towels are provided.
JUDGE:
How long will the behavior watch last? Based on the circumstances, and who he is, that it would be maintained for awhile. He's a high profile inmate.
REBUTTAL
EC's parents are still his legal guardians. They are responsible for his education regarless of their incarceration status.
EC has been able to access games, his messaging, his scanned mail. And this is all on the same platform as Conn academy.
Meals to EC: he's receiving a Kosher meal. It's a cold meal. It's separate and distinct from the other inmates.
The other juvenile is receiving adolescent pack. (What is this? moo)
EC is assigned to his row because of his status as a juvenile, and it's sight and sound separation from adult prisoners.
Oakland county jail has never detained a school shooter. As a facility, they are still working out the details. Not concerned for EC's safety.
DEFENSE FOLLOW UP
No school shooter, but other people accused of murder and serious life offenses.
Kristin Esq.
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The matter is under advisement, and there should be a decision at the beginning of next week. His decision has to be in writing. Any supplemental briefs are due by Friday at 4pm, that has to be about his placement
@Kristin Esq. thank you so much for the notes. I was able to listen in on part of the hearing related to education. It was said that that the jail has custody but that the parents were still legal guardians. What does that really mean? Who is authorized and responsible for him?
WRT the Conn Academy videos, they are very good, IMO, for helping to explain a particular topic. My grandson watched one on slope-intercept form for graphs. The defense was correct, however, in that they are only supplemental information and that they are not an education program. fwiw -- I realize that the issues are well beyond whether he is getting an education.
Kristin Esq.
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Brief Closing:
A setting with other juveniles, including at risk juveniles, is inappropriate.
A 15 year old with the sophisication to plan and execute a large scale school shoooting.
His ongoing texts delve into the depths of his mind and shows that he is capable of thinking, concealing, and doing.
He tells his friend they are so glad to be able to talk to each other. He appreicates that his friend is the one person that is as f'd as him.
He wants to explore his darkness, make birds suffer and hear their screams.
It's not just his words, not just his thoughts. It's things that he's done.
The day before the shooting, he made a video as to his plans, who he wants to kill, the types of people he wants to kill.
Nov. 30, 2021 isn't an isolated incident. He wants to be remembered. He wants to be compared to the likes of Hitler, Dahmer, or the parkland school shooter. These acts were calculated, rehearsed, and well thought out.
He anticpated and wrote about his expected life behind bars.
His behavior since incarceration hasn't changed. He requested how to get his fan mail - love and hate mail.
He's on his emails almost daily. He talks to other juveniles - commiserates with them about things they go through. He indicated that it's not so bad in there. I get a TV, the deputies are nice, I get good food.
He mentions to his fans his next court date, encouraging them to watch on TV.
The manager of CV has concerns about the other juveniles and concerns of EC.
DEFENSE CLOSING
I need help, I was thinking of calling 911 to go to the hospital but my parents would be pissed. He see things, and hears voices. He tells his parents he needs therapy. This is someone who was having a mental health crisis and no one did a thing.
No prior suspensions.
My husband called and I missed some.
He had no one in his corner.
He adjusted to life in jail. But it's not the best place for him. Isolation is horrific.
Women have been sent him messages, but he didn't reach out to them. At CV's they can control that.
A setting with other juveniles, including at risk juveniles, is inappropriate.
A 15 year old with the sophisication to plan and execute a large scale school shoooting.
His ongoing texts delve into the depths of his mind and shows that he is capable of thinking, concealing, and doing.
He tells his friend they are so glad to be able to talk to each other. He appreicates that his friend is the one person that is as f'd as him.
He wants to explore his darkness, make birds suffer and hear their screams.
It's not just his words, not just his thoughts. It's things that he's done.
The day before the shooting, he made a video as to his plans, who he wants to kill, the types of people he wants to kill.
Nov. 30, 2021 isn't an isolated incident. He wants to be remembered. He wants to be compared to the likes of Hitler, Dahmer, or the parkland school shooter. These acts were calculated, rehearsed, and well thought out.
He anticpated and wrote about his expected life behind bars.
His behavior since incarceration hasn't changed. He requested how to get his fan mail - love and hate mail.
He's on his emails almost daily. He talks to other juveniles - commiserates with them about things they go through. He indicated that it's not so bad in there. I get a TV, the deputies are nice, I get good food.
He mentions to his fans his next court date, encouraging them to watch on TV.
The manager of CV has concerns about the other juveniles and concerns of EC.
DEFENSE CLOSING
I need help, I was thinking of calling 911 to go to the hospital but my parents would be pissed. He see things, and hears voices. He tells his parents he needs therapy. This is someone who was having a mental health crisis and no one did a thing.
No prior suspensions.
My husband called and I missed some.
He had no one in his corner.
He adjusted to life in jail. But it's not the best place for him. Isolation is horrific.
Women have been sent him messages, but he didn't reach out to them. At CV's they can control that.
Kristin Esq.
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Sorry I missed some stuff, I did my best!
MrsWatson
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No worries at all, @Kristin Esq. !
Your as-its-happening transcripts are great.
What does everyone think about his placement being changed?
I don't think it will happen, but I think the jail will be told to get an education plan in place. The manager from CV was clearly uncomfortable with the idea, and rightly so, I think.
Your as-its-happening transcripts are great.
What does everyone think about his placement being changed?
I don't think it will happen, but I think the jail will be told to get an education plan in place. The manager from CV was clearly uncomfortable with the idea, and rightly so, I think.
BetteDavisEyes
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No need to apologize. I watched the entire hearing (except for needing a potty break!) and appreciate your notes so I can go back and review what was said in court. I was riveted with the testimony and hope the Judge makes the right decision based on what is best for everyone concerned.
Kristin Esq.
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In my opinion, I agree with @MrsWatson - I think he'll remain in jail, but they need to put an education program in place.
kaen
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JMHO, but he belongs at the jail. The residents of the Children's Village are not all children who are there because of criminal activity---there are children with mental health issues. Based on the information that the prosec. team presented about him wanting a fan base, the unstructured time with non-professional, trained oversight team seems like an accident or training ground for him to make acquaintance who might be of like mind or be persuaded to be of like mind. It just seems too risky for me. If the information presented today showed a kid with remorse, bettering himself through education, not emailing nut jobs who are emailing him I might feel differently. He just seems manipulative and dangerous.
From what I read and heard, it sounds like the argument to keep him in adult detention is that he is a real bad one and his behavior hasn't changed. The argument to move him is that the facility doesn't provide what is required for children (education and protection from cyber stalker types).
I agree that having the jail make adjustments would be best, but I also wonder why in close to three months has that not already happened?
This really falls in line with the meta-theme that has flowed through the EC threads: "What should be done about EC?"
No easy answers here. IMO.
Kristin Esq.
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It seems Covid had screwed up a lot of things. Plus I think the jail just wasn't ready for something like this. The Captain did say that Corporations counsel was working on it.
BetteDavisEyes
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I wonder if a self-induced hunger strike was considered in the "suicide watch". Did Ethan not like jail cuisine or was he trying to gain attention by not eating? I thought I heard someone mention that Ethan is on a Kosher diet. Who made that decision?
MrsWatson
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I think the jail may be short-staffed and that may explain some of it. But yes, three months, they should at the very least have him doing online structured classes or have a tutor for him.
I don't think Ethan belongs at Children's Village, a secure detention facility at Children's Village is far from what most of us would think of as secure detention. Also, I agree that his mixing with both other kids there who are there because of mental health issues, or they need placement, or for lesser charges would not be good for the other children, especially those who are around his age. These residential facilities for children are not meant to house a kid like Ethan with his mental health issues and behavior.
I do think it is not good that he can't leave his cell or interact with people during the day, and that his light is left on all night, 24 hours a day. I think he should be getting more treatment than can be provided where he is, and that he needs more interaction, although highly supervised. But if that third option doesn't exist, then I think he should stay where he is until his trial or sentencing, which ever comes first.
No one else in society should be placed at risk of serious harm from this person now that we know what he is capable of. He is not Children's Village material, and they have no comprehensive treatment there, just crisis intervention. One clinician for 60 residents, IIRC.
JMO.
I do think it is not good that he can't leave his cell or interact with people during the day, and that his light is left on all night, 24 hours a day. I think he should be getting more treatment than can be provided where he is, and that he needs more interaction, although highly supervised. But if that third option doesn't exist, then I think he should stay where he is until his trial or sentencing, which ever comes first.
No one else in society should be placed at risk of serious harm from this person now that we know what he is capable of. He is not Children's Village material, and they have no comprehensive treatment there, just crisis intervention. One clinician for 60 residents, IIRC.
JMO.
BetteDavisEyes
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Judge hears arguments over where suspected Oxford High School shooter should be held (clickondetroit.com)
Lawyers for Ethan Crumbley want him moved from Oakland County Jail to Children’s Village
Live: Accused Oxford shooter 'enjoyed his dark side,' prosecutors say (detroitnews.com)
Oakland County prosecutors say accused Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley was "calculated" and "enjoyed his dark side."
Ahead of a Nov. 30 rampage, the teen allegedly plotted in text messages and a private journal the type of gun he needed to carry out a shooting rampage, who he would kill first, and his plan to surrender "to witness the pain and suffering he caused."
Defense attorneys depict the teen as mentally unwell and crying out for help ahead of the shooting that left four of his classmates dead and six other students and a teacher wounded...
Lawyers for Ethan Crumbley want him moved from Oakland County Jail to Children’s Village
Live: Accused Oxford shooter 'enjoyed his dark side,' prosecutors say (detroitnews.com)
Oakland County prosecutors say accused Oxford High School shooter Ethan Crumbley was "calculated" and "enjoyed his dark side."
Ahead of a Nov. 30 rampage, the teen allegedly plotted in text messages and a private journal the type of gun he needed to carry out a shooting rampage, who he would kill first, and his plan to surrender "to witness the pain and suffering he caused."
Defense attorneys depict the teen as mentally unwell and crying out for help ahead of the shooting that left four of his classmates dead and six other students and a teacher wounded...
Kristin Esq.
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I wonder if a self-induced hunger strike was considered in the "suicide watch". Did Ethan not like jail cuisine or was he trying to gain attention by not eating? I thought I heard someone mention that Ethan is on a Kosher diet. Who made that decision?
Yes, he gets a Kosher diet in the jail.
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