Awesome point. These defense attorneys need to up their game. That's been apparent from the git-go IMO.Note to self: if ever presenting before three judges in a court of appeals, don't refer to them as "you guys".
I think the parents' trial will not go forward due to EC being charged as an adult. That takes away the parents' duty of care in this case.
![]()
Arguments heard to appeals court if Crumbley parents can see trial for son's Oxford shooting
"These parents knew he had a fascination with guns. They knew he was gifted this gun days earlier, they knew of the graphic drawing that he made, and they knew that he was in crisis," said the assistant prosecutor. "Yet they did nothing."www.fox2detroit.com
There is no decision today, but probably in about another. 45 to 60 days.
RBBMI don't think they will stand trial in this case. IMO there are several things that could make them responsible for his actions- I won't go over them since we all know what those things are including gifting him with a gun (duh) but this would be a precedent setting case, and if a Judge is going to rule that they should bear responsibility for his actions, it would have to be a very very strong case. We shall see.
I keep going back to the analogy that if a dog owner caused his/her dog to be aggressive -- or severely neglected it so that the dog is semi-feral -- and if the dog goes on to attack someone, then the owner is held responsible. Why would that not be the case in the human domain where a parent neglects a child to the point of mental illness or aggression, and the child harms another (especially when they provide the weapon)? It seems inconsistent that pet owners are accountable for preventable actions but parents aren't.I was curious why the Michigan SC intervention in this case is unusual.
It's explained in this source dated 11-29-22:
CNN legal analyst Paul Callan said the court's order postponing the trial is "highly unusual," noting that courts customarily wait until court proceedings have concluded.
"The 'causation' issue in a criminal case is usually determined by a jury after hearing live witnesses in open court rather than by a panel of appellate judges," he said. The order, he continued, suggests a majority of judges have "serious concerns" that the parents' roles "may not be adequate to establish legal 'causation'" in their son's killings.
BBM
The dog-human analogy, though it has some points, does not really take into account all of the nuances and complicating factors involving humans (and not dogs)---- I would like to see the parents be held accountable but I don't believe it will happen in this case. As I suggested above, this would be a precedent - setting case and a judge would have to see a very very strong case to hold the parents accountable. Some talking heads are suggesting whatever the outcome of this case, it could ultimately wind up at the Supreme Court.I keep going back to the analogy that if a dog owner caused his/her dog to be aggressive -- or severely neglected it so that the dog is semi-feral -- and if the dog goes on to attack someone, then the owner is held responsible. Why would that not be the case in the human domain where a parent neglects a child to the point of mental illness or aggression, and the child harms another (especially when they provide the weapon)? It seems inconsistent that pet owners are accountable for preventable actions but parents aren't.
I don't think that accountability holds for parents when they acted reasonably responsibly (i.e., the bad seed scenario). JMO.
This is a strange case where my heart still hurts not only for the victims and what could have been for them but also for the life of the killer, like a seedling left to wither after sprouting (again, not saying that he should be free to harm others). Normally, I just say good riddance to the killers after conviction.
Sorry for the repeated rant but this just doesn't resolve if charges are dropped.
The dog-human analogy, though it has some points, does not really take into account all of the nuances and complicating factors involving humans (and not dogs)---- I would like to see the parents be held accountable but I don't believe it will happen in this case. As I suggested above, this would be a precedent - setting case and a judge would have to see a very very strong case to hold the parents accountable. Some talking heads are suggesting whatever the outcome of this case, it could ultimately wind up at the Supreme Court.
It all depends on the judge--- but the fact that this would be a precedent setting case leads to concern that the judge might be concerned about being turned back on appeal. Just thinking out loudIf this case doesn't constitute a "very very strong case," though, what would? IMO he even told them via his drawing what he was going to do. They were the ones who knew he had motive (social and mental struggles), and they provided the means. What more would be needed to set the precedent?
JMO.
Yes, it is strong. After watching some of the hearing I realized that the strongest case would have some official government record of intervention on EC's behalf, such as a CPS referral in which the parents were investigated for neglect. Under the law more is needed than the two school incidents. It's a very high bar to hold parent's accountable in a school shooting case due to 1) no precedents & 2) unwillingness to set a precedent.If this case doesn't constitute a "very very strong case," though, what would? IMO he even told them via his drawing what he was going to do. They were the ones who knew he had motive (social and mental struggles), and they provided the means. What more would be needed to set the precedent?
JMO.
I thought Ethan Crumbley surrendered as well? Yes, he was arrested but he surrendered…Oxford school shooter Ethan Crumbley spent nine minutes hunting down victims and unloading rounds from his gun in high school hallways and a bathroom, according to a timeline obtained by The Detroit News.![]()
Sheriff's timeline shows Oxford shooting lasted longer than previous reports
The release of the Oxford timeline comes just days after a public timeline of the Feb. 13 shooting at Michigan State was made public.www.detroitnews.com
He continued to walk the school, fire his gun and injure and kill victims for four minutes after Oakland County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene before officers physically observed Crumbley in the building — just outside a bathroom — and took him into custody.
The timeline, which has not been formally published previously, was obtained this week through a media request by The Detroit News. It shows the Nov. 30, 2021, attack at Oxford High School lasted several minutes longer than the amount of time initially described by authorities after the incident. Four students — Hana St. Juliana, 14; Madisyn Baldwin, 17; Tate Myre, 16; and Justin Shilling, 17 — were killed and seven others, including a teacher, were injured at the Michigan school that day...
That would be like comparing persimmons to pineapples. As a child grows, we expect less and less dependency on parents and more independence and responsibility on the part of the child. There is no such transference of responsibility with a dog. After a time, they don't learn higher order reasoning.I keep going back to the analogy that if a dog owner caused his/her dog to be aggressive -- or severely neglected it so that the dog is semi-feral -- and if the dog goes on to attack someone, then the owner is held responsible. Why would that not be the case in the human domain where a parent neglects a child to the point of mental illness or aggression, and the child harms another (especially when they provide the weapon)? It seems inconsistent that pet owners are accountable for preventable actions but parents aren't.
I don't think that accountability holds for parents when they acted reasonably responsibly (i.e., the bad seed scenario). JMO.
This is a strange case where my heart still hurts not only for the victims and what could have been for them but also for the life of the killer, like a seedling left to wither after sprouting (again, not saying that he should be free to harm others). Normally, I just say good riddance to the killers after conviction.
Sorry for the repeated rant but this just doesn't resolve if charges are dropped.
That would be like comparing persimmons to pineapples. As a child grows, we expect less and less dependency on parents and more independence and responsibility on the part of the child. There is no such transference of responsibility with a dog. After a time, they don't learn higher order reasoning.