GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #5

[KMouse]

JC was not likeable whatsoever on the stand. She did not come across as a regretful parent who is mourning the choices she made. Had she searched the bag or not bought the gun or paid more attention to her son or taken him to see a doctor...so many things...one of those could have changed the future for everyone. How can she sit there and say there is nothing she would change. If that were my son I would live the rest of my days feeling guilty thinking about what I could have done to help my kid. Putting her on the stand was an error. Not so much because of the questions but because she came across as self serving and cold.

 

[dyannaON]

One thing I noticed is they didn’t show any pictures of JC and Ethan together. I know as moms it’s hard to get pictures of us in them, however, I have many selfies of my boy and I.
Jmo.

 

[Izzylizzy]

You are spot on. That was a huge mistake. She didn't have to say a whole lot, other than what you stated, which would have humanized her in stating the very understandable regret in not taking him home. To know 4 people are dead and to say as the mother of the 15 yo, you wouldn't do anything differently was a terrible response. I would have accepted also, "I would have read his journal, instead of respecting his privacy."

Thinking about the question from Smith and JC's answer could it have been set up?

Had JC said she would have done blah,blah differently it would have set her up admitting that there was an issue(s) with EC that needed at the very least a mental evaluation and she ignored it,
Does that make any sense?

 

[LMDlong]

If found guilty what is the minimum sentencing guidelines ? Tia. Sorry full of questions! Tia!

I read that she was looking at 15 years for negligence .

 

[Izzylizzy]

Thank you to everyone for posting the daily updates! I have not been able to watch the trial and it’s very much appreciated.

Is anyone here familiar with the book by Dr. M. Scott Peck, “The People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil”?

He recounts some cases he encountered as a psychiatrist where he felt he encountered true evil. In one family he worked with, the oldest son had committed suicide with a gun. The younger brother, Bobby, fell into a depression and started acting out. For Christmas that year, his parents gave him the same gun that his brother had used to kill himself. They had all kinds of excuses for doing that—for example they said they couldn’t afford anything else.

Basically, they were enabling Bobby to do the same thing his brother had done.

It gives me chills to think about and it’s what I think every time I hear that JC lied and said that EC’s friend had killed himself. Was she in a way giving the message to EC to do what she claimed his friend had done?

Hopefully, she is not pure evil, and I’m just glad she will never be able to have another child (due to her age)

I could be way off base, but wanted to share.

“Dr. M. Scott Peck brilliantly probes into the essence of human evil.

People who are evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Peck demonstrates the havoc these people of the lie work in the lives of those around them. He presents, from vivid incidents encountered in his psychiatric practice, examples of evil in everyday life.

This book is by turns disturbing, fascinating, and altogether impossible to put down as it offers a strikingly original approach to the age-old problem of human evil.”

People of the Lie

In this absorbing and equally inspiring companion volume to his classic trilogy—The Road Less Traveled, Further Along the Road Less Traveled, and T...

www.simonandschuster.com

I remember my mom reading it and talking about it, she then read his other work(s)..she loved reading.
Peck certainly made an impact yet I don't know if it ever changed anything within the shrink community except some finally admitting that there are actual evil people that carry out evil deeds.
Wasn't it published before the "inner child" arrived on the scene which enabled too many therapists to turn many of their clients into the victim?
Peck's messages on evil remain as relevant today as when he wrote them decades ago when most works on the human spirit/soul have ended up in the dust bin.
My absolute favorite work is by the late James Hillman, he addresses evil, one's higher destiny and synchronicity.
"The Souls Code"

 

[ilovewings]

I am so grateful for this thread: thanks to all of you: I have not been following the testimony on line, but tomorrow, being the cross of Jennifer, I believe I will be watching.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I read that she was looking at 15 years for negligence .

Me too but I can't find a minimum sentence guideline.
Isn't the sentence up to the judge after guilty verdicts are reached by a jury?
I

 

[Izzylizzy]

I wonder if the jury believed her. I didn't. It sounded like a too convenient excuse from a woman who was acting too smooth about how everything was wonderful with their family. Stories of family board game nights. Sure. The neighbors have been interviewed and we've seen the text messages. They weren't the Cleavers, home for dinner every night with checkers after dessert.

The Prosecution can look and see if they can find out when James lost his job but as a poster here said (paraphrasing ) Smith would have or should have checked it out first before JC ran with it.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I wonder if the jury believed her. I didn't. It sounded like a too convenient excuse from a woman who was acting too smooth about how everything was wonderful with their family. Stories of family board game nights. Sure. The neighbors have been interviewed and we've seen the text messages. They weren't the Cleavers, home for dinner every night with checkers after dessert.

Right there with ya not believing JC.

 

[Izzylizzy]

She isn't bright to put it mildly. Many examples.

I would be worried about Schizophrenia if my kid texted me that he saw and heard things moving in the house and heard voices. Hearing voices is a big red flag. Dishes flying out of the cupboards? Big red flag.

I would get my kid evaluated. I think she will be found guilty. She gets over 2 years credit on her prison sentence.

I predict four 15 year sentences to run concurrently.

2 Cents

I recently read that Smith was debunking that EC was serious with those texts to his buddy and he was joking because he was watching scary movies at the time the texts were sent.
I think it was in a motion that she filed either wanting new evidence to be admitted at trial or she had evidence for the claim.
It sounded crazy and made no sense so I didn';t bookmark it to look further into it.
I'll look for it and so far haven't heard Smith address this with JC unless she changed her tune and now it's the Ouija Board tales?

 

[BeachSky]

I wonder if the jury believed her. I didn't. It sounded like a too convenient excuse from a woman who was acting too smooth about how everything was wonderful with their family. Stories of family board game nights. Sure. The neighbors have been interviewed and we've seen the text messages. They weren't the Cleavers, home for dinner every night with checkers after dessert.

I thought she threw her husband under the bus every opportunity.
She had an attitude and a side eye way about her.It’s everyone else’s fault.
No regret that she did not look through his bag or take him home . No remorse for all the protective parents who lost their child that day. She did say she “wished he had killed us instead” but it fell flat like it was a rehearsed line . IMO.

 

[Sundog]

Thank you to everyone for posting the daily updates! I have not been able to watch the trial and it’s very much appreciated.

Is anyone here familiar with the book by Dr. M. Scott Peck, “The People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil”?

He recounts some cases he encountered as a psychiatrist where he felt he encountered true evil. In one family he worked with, the oldest son had committed suicide with a gun. The younger brother, Bobby, fell into a depression and started acting out. For Christmas that year, his parents gave him the same gun that his brother had used to kill himself. They had all kinds of excuses for doing that—for example they said they couldn’t afford anything else.

Basically, they were enabling Bobby to do the same thing his brother had done.

It gives me chills to think about and it’s what I think every time I hear that JC lied and said that EC’s friend had killed himself. Was she in a way giving the message to EC to do what she claimed his friend had done?

Hopefully, she is not pure evil, and I’m just glad she will never be able to have another child (due to her age)

I could be way off base, but wanted to share.

“Dr. M. Scott Peck brilliantly probes into the essence of human evil.

People who are evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Peck demonstrates the havoc these people of the lie work in the lives of those around them. He presents, from vivid incidents encountered in his psychiatric practice, examples of evil in everyday life.

This book is by turns disturbing, fascinating, and altogether impossible to put down as it offers a strikingly original approach to the age-old problem of human evil.”

People of the Lie

In this absorbing and equally inspiring companion volume to his classic trilogy—The Road Less Traveled, Further Along the Road Less Traveled, and T...

www.simonandschuster.com

I've read the book and read the account you mention several times. I don't see JC and James C as "evil" in the way that Scott Peck described the clients he had who he deemed as "evil."

 

[RickshawFan]

I didn't have a Quija board, but in 70s, a ton of kids had one, everyone played with it at some point. And all the parents knew about it, they were probably the ones that gifted it lol. The Exorcist probably helped it to be a popular board game.

I can't see any parents being okay with it now, though. Some things you just shouldn't mess with. The 70s were a weird time.

I didn't grow up American, but my American friend had a Ouija board. I thought it was very silly and boring. One player can just move the finger around, and the gullible others think it's real. I can't believe parents are fussed about it.

To me, fussing about guns is much more on task.

 

[RickshawFan]

I agree. It sounds like a whiny teenager mindset. Hard to feel sympathetic towards EC because of parental neglect or anything else. Those diary entries really took that away completely. Any parent with a teen will see this from the parents perspective, I think. JMO

Young people (and all people) can't handle isolation and being ignored, let alone repeatedly. That's why isolation is not permitted in juvie, and juveniles can ask for help and at least get a response, if not assistance on the exact problem. This was testimony by one of the country's foremost experts (from Brown) on juvenile punishment during the Ferriter trial.

IMO Ethan was telling the truth every time he complained he was being ignored, and it's torture to do that to a human being, let alone a juvenile. And his parents had been doing this to him for years. They will do something to get attention, because the status quo is psychologically intolerable.

 

[RickshawFan]

While on the stand JC said something about Smith being her lawyer which Kaest claims negates the attorney/client privilege and wants a text entered as evidence that proves it is not true what JC said in reference to Smith.

When you open your mouth on the stand at times you end up opening a can of worms saying something that wouldn't have be permitted had you not said what you said,

These are prosecutors dreams come true.

Why is this comment by JC on the stand a problem? I don't understand.

 

[RickshawFan]

When parents don't buy health insurance for their kids it is typically because they are already covered.
Michigan has a good insurance program for age 18 and under called MIChild. It includes dental and is available for low income families.

To keep a child uninsured is far too expensive because then the parent has to pay 100% of the cost.

2 Cents

I guess that was irrelevant to JC. She had work benefits that allowed Ethan to be on her insurance plan. She didn't add him to her policy. HR or her boss testified to that earlier.

These are not low income folks. They had horses and paid vet bills.

 

[RickshawFan]

I've been gifted a few Xanax over the years and they're like taking 25 mgs of a Valium or diazepam.
I went to sleep so that's all I know.
They're obvioulsy addictive and are also used to come down from adderall (speed).
Plus JC could have mixed in alcohol and when the house was searched there was evidence of pot growing in the basement.

Who knows what her cocktail of choice was?

Plus they were feeding it to Ethan, without any concern, evidently, with how it might affect him mentally, his decision-making, etc. It's not a drug to play around with. And teens can have totally different reactions to psychotropic medications than adults (some make them suicidal).

 

[RickshawFan]

I can't find guidelines that state a minimum sentence.
They're all "no more than 15 yrs" and fine up to 7,000.
I also want to know and will look further.
It's the judges decision, yes?
Seriously, I can see Matthews giving her time served and a few yrs of probation.
I can also see JC wanting a plea deal if her testimony and her witnesses go off the rail.

Isn't it too late for a plea deal once the trial starts?

 

[Sundog]

I guess that was irrelevant to JC. She had work benefits that allowed Ethan to be on her insurance plan. She didn't add him to her policy. HR or her boss testified to that earlier.

These are not low income folks. They had horses and paid vet bills.

Under oath, JC stated that Ethan was on James' health plan at his workplace, until James lost his job in October of 2021. They were planning to enroll him in JC's health plan at her workplace during the Open Enrollment period in fall of 2021.

If this is the case, then EC had health insurance under his father's plan until the end of October 2021.

 

[Izzylizzy]

Isn't it too late for a plea deal once the trial starts?

No, right up until the jury announces a verdict.
Juries have been deliberating when plea deals have been made and they are thanked by the judge and dismissed.