Found Deceased MI - Dr. Teleka Patrick, 30, Kalamazoo, 5 Dec 2013 - #14

[Taticat]

There is no evidence of anything. Just because there is no traceable evidence does not mean nothing happened.

There is no evidence of Jesus Christ but millions of people believe.

There are also millions of people who have believed in dowsing throughout the ages; who believed in Peter Popoff; who believed in James Hydrick; who believed in Uri Geller.

James Randi has debunked them all.

Appeal to authority, tradition, popular opinion...these are all logical fallacies. Just because 'millions' (or a select, enlightened few) believe something, it ain't necessarily so, as the song goes.

No-one could ever prove that MS didn't do it, because this is proving a negative. Authorities say no trauma, the conspiracy theorists invent some non-traumatic method; authorities say he has an alibi, conspiracy theorists invent henchmen; this just goes on and on and on. And it is completely illogical and unfounded.

Come back to Reason, please.

Tcat.


Sent from my Lite-Brite modded to run Free BSD.

 

[Poppyflower]

There are also millions of people who have believed in dowsing throughout the ages; who believed in Peter Popoff; who believed in James Hydrick; who believed in Uri Geller.

James Randi has debunked them all.

Appeal to authority, tradition, popular opinion...these are all logical fallacies. Just because 'millions' (or a select, enlightened few) believe something, it ain't necessarily so, as the song goes.

No-one could ever prove that MS didn't do it, because this is proving a negative. Authorities say no trauma, the conspiracy theorists invent some non-traumatic method; authorities say he has an alibi, conspiracy theorists invent henchmen; this just goes on and on and on. And it is completely illogical and unfounded.

Come back to Reason, please.

Tcat.


Sent from my Lite-Brite modded to run Free BSD.

Tcat, I wish you were my friend in real life! It sounds like we have a lot in common.

The million dollar prize is still out there for anyone that can prove it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi#One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge

I was curious about MS. Shady things do happen but I don't think so in this case.

Poor Teleka. It is heartbreaking. I wish I could go back in time and rescue her or even further back and take her for help.

I feel sorry for James Davis too. If I were him I would have an enormous amount of guilt for not insisting and supporting Dr. Teleka Patrick seeking help. Who knows, maybe he did. Maybe he didn't understand the depths of the situation. Either way I know I'd be incredibly upset if I were him. I hope he is doing ok.

Ugh. I still don't want to believe she has passed. I really feel like the world needed her.

I hate that seeking help was something that she felt wasn't an option. Hate it.

 

[winter2014]

I don't know. Very few natural or artificial ponds/lakes are just instantly 3 feet deep at the edge except maybe stone quarries or non-recreational water reservoirs. Lake Charles doesn't seem to be either.

The photo of TP's body being recovered shows four divers standing about 15-20 feet out from the shoreline and they look to be between knee and thigh deep in water. The slope out to that point is almost certainly gradual, from inches to feet. If TP stumbled into the water and got mired in mud or some other debris then that's where she would've been found. Because she was found so much further out suggests, at least to me, that this was not an accident.

Nor is there a single shred of evidence that foul play was involved. So that leaves some form of suicide. However, suicide usually involves some forethought or planning. I do not believe that there was any forethought or planning to how Teleka ended up in that lake. I do, however, think that she might have been in such a fearful and irrational state of mind that night, that the water she came upon after fleeing the chaos of her experience on the highway might have appeared to her not as dangerous but rather a comforting, peaceful refuge. All the more so if she felt pursued by demons who were closing in on her.

Originally Posted by GrunG View Post
I don't buy the suicide theory. She was in a flight of panic from who knows what. Drove like a maniac for 3 hours. Left her car in a hurry, tore through the underbrush, over a fence, through more underbrush, up an incline, ignored and crossed an access road, plunged through more underbrush, probably slid down the hill to the water. These are all actions of someone who wants to live and values her life. A basic animal instinct. Whether she went into the water and tried to keep going, or crouched in the water to hide and underestimated the cold, or tried swimming to the other shore, who knows. But she most likely ran out of her adrenalin energy and couldn't make it out. I have to think her thoughts were of preservation and not surrender and ending it all.

In this particular case the end results turned out to be the most obvious one and was even discussed often from the day she abandoned her vehicle. We even had much discussion about how close the lake was to where she went missing.

The fisherman that found Teleka's remains said she was floating about 20 feet out from the shoreline. Since we haven't been able to obtain a map of the lake floor there could have been a sharp drop off not far from shore. Plus lakes like this are known to have pocket crevices in them, and one can be standing in shallow water one minute, and then take another step, and fall off into a deep hole making the water way over their head.

Plus not only would the shock of hitting such icy waters stun her senses but her clothing and shoes would immediately start getting much heavier and water logged and that also would pull her under.

It is only common sense that this poor lady drowned. Nothing, not one thing points to anything other than an accident. Nothing. There is absolutely no evidence that anyone wanted to harm Teleka. Everything points to a terrible accident which unfortunately can and does happen even to smart people
.
I honestly don't know why some must insist that Teleka was murdered. The worst thing that happened is when the media threw the side issue of MS filing a RO MONTHS before Teleka went missing. They knew he had filed this RO months before Teleka abandoned her car and not one thing during those many months happened to Teleka. It was the worst thing that could have happened to this case and to Pastor Sapp. It was a senseless diversion that muddied up the case when it should have been all about Teleka and trying to find a mentally ill woman before it was too late.

There is not one shred of evidence that this man ever talked/tweeted/emailed or sent up smoke signals to Teleka Patrick. He had no motive to want to harm her. He wasn't married and would be able to have a relationship with anyone he wanted to go with. To this day I haven't heard about him beginning to date anyone. The last I read in January he said he was still married to the one in Heaven where he firmly believes his beloved wife is.

Sapp just wanted her to stop stalking him and his children and telling others she was his wife. What man in their right mind wouldn't do the same? Travis Alexander should have done the same with stalker, JA and he may.. just may.. be alive today if he had. MS had every right in the world to make this decision just like any of us do.

One cant take a chance when it comes to someone who stalks. It is not normal behavior for anyone to stalk another. Stalkers have been known to become dangerous for the victim being stalked. I don't blame him one bit for wanting to protect himself and his children.

There is no way in hades that someone would know she was going to have a flat and wind up in the ditch where she did and the police was on the scene in 10 minutes or less. Not one person said they saw anyone following her car No one saw anyone around her car because no one was there, but TP, and her delusional frightened paranoid mind... that was probably more paranoid than ever before due her being out there alone and it being dark.

Everything in this case points to an accidental drowning and NOTHING points to murder. No trauma to any part of her body and she wouldn't just stand there and let someone drown her. She would be fighting back as hard as she could and the only way they would be able to get her to stay down.... is either hit her in the face... knocking her out or bludgeoning her with something or manhandling her body/head and holding it down the 3-4 minutes it takes for someone to completely stop breathing. Any of those things would have left bruises on her body yet she doesn't have trauma anywhere on her body/face/head.

I do hope Pastor Sapp retains an attorney on his behalf. Imo, if TP was in her right frame of mind she would never want this man, and his children's lives ruined. She knew he was only a delusion in her mind. It came from her very own fingertips when she admitted it per her many tweets.

So I have no further questions about Teleka's accidental drowning death or how it happened. All of it makes sense and in the end cases are never nearly as complex as some make them out to be but come down to the logical conclusion when all of the circumstances are taken into consideration.

I hope one day you are able to rest in peace Teleka.

 

[cebee]

People seem to assume that where she was found was where she went under... and this may not be the case. any movement of the water would move her as well... I wonder if she ran into shallow water... thought it would be that shallow all the way across... till it wasnt. Her coat etc would have made it very hard to get back up if she fell.
I agree, no reason what so ever to point to foul play. And I seriously doubt she knew the lake was there.. it was dark... so suicide seems to be a stretch as well.
I am sad for her family, but I feel the PI fed them his theory of foul play... probably still is... they need to be able to grieve instead of looking to place blame... he needs to back off and let them grieve... MOO

 

[Prosecution_Rests]

Many times mentally ill people hurt/kill themselves based on a delusion or paranoia. They jump off ledges, to get away from something, etc.

So, imo...it can be labeled an accident but quite often, the mentally ill person's condition is responsible for their death and so it's an accident by virtue of mental illness or more technically, can also be considered a suicide as well, in many cases.

Tomato, tomahto. Pretty much the same thing in these kind of circumstances, really.

 

[AstroKitty]

I don't think it's suicide in the traditional manner, but I do think Teleka passed because of her mental illness. Likely she had some delusional or auditory "telepathic" moment going on that told her to stay put, so in that freezing water she hunkered down and waited. Most likely she had a voice saying she would be failing or not trusting in her god if she gave up and went back to the car. After time has passed, she's exhausted, she's hungry, she's wet and she's cold. It would be very easily to succumb to the elements and internal struggle.

This case was pretty clear cut to me from the start, and while it would have been much better to have located her in a shelter in my city - it's not realistic she could have made it that far. I am actually still very shocked people believe or need MS to say anything at all. Teleka's family knew she was mentally ill and chose not to intervene because that's how they wanted to deal with it, and even in her death they choose not to allow her to heal.

It's a great disservice to the mental health community to ignore the reality of the situation:
There was NO ONE on the other side of those tweets *she even states this!*
People did know she was paranoid, had bouts of psychotic breaks ...
She was stalking someone and really saying things that if she were a male - we wouldn't all be so gentle in discussing.

This is mental health unraveling because of stigma and denial not because of lack in resources. She passed away for the very same reasons.

 

[JLSChook]

http://beyondcoldwaterbootcamp.com/4-phases-of-cold-water-immersion

Cold Shock Response lasts for only about a minute after entering the water and refers to the affect that cold water has on your breathing. Initially, there is an automatic gasp reflex in response to rapid skin cooling. If the head goes underwater, water may be breathed into the lungs during the gasp. The result is simple: drowning.

Much more at link. Very informative.

 

[weaselpuppy]

Is it normal for a PI to be present? Wouldnt you want an attorney instead?

No it is VERY abnormal, but about even par for that guy. smh. Ghoul.

 

[weaselpuppy]

A PI's job is to uncover facts. If Carlin were a lawyer or a PR person for the family, then his stance would be more acceptable to me. Carlin is making a mockery of the profession IMO if he is simply going along with what the family thinks happened because they are cutting him checks.

exactly.

Most of the PIs that get in the news want to be the news, and end up being news at some point in their careers for the wrong reason (anthony pellicano being a more famous example, as well as PI wanna be Barry Minkow another)

 

[weaselpuppy]

The group wants him to make peace with the Patrick family for unwittingly becoming the object of her delusional obsession? :facepalm:

The group wants their name in the media.

 

[weaselpuppy]

Don't know if this was posted:



http://www.wwmt.com/shared/news/fea...topsy-teleka-patrick-19970.shtml#.U0oRxVbD_IU

YHTBFKM

Y'all can guess at that acronym...I'm too pissed to explain.

 

[weaselpuppy]

Its probably just me since I am not feeling very well today, but I don't understand what you are saying SS. If 'someone' carried on any communication of any kind it would be traced back to them.

Everyone knows there is really no such thing as being 'anonymous' on the internet anywhere anymore. That is why lawsuits are cropping up more than ever before against anonymous internet posters who think they are anonymous and cant be detected when they falsely accused someone. They weren't hidden at all and Judges are demanding the sites reveal information of the anonymous poster to reveal their true identity. Some of those case have been won. They were won against the real live person who was falsely accusing even though they stupidly thought they could hide behind a monitor and never been known.

So I am not following you. How could they be trolling if they never responded?

I think if anyone was conversing with Teleka in any manner, LE, and the forensic computer/data experts would have found it. They had all of her communication devices. They had her cell phone, and cell phone records can be gotten for several years back. They took her computer, and I am sure anything else they found that would show the communications of TP between anyone else.

They can even track back who she may have kept up with on the internet and what tweets, posts she read. It would all be in her history file where she was and what she was viewing at any given time along with showing when she was doing her own tweets, etc.

So while I respect your opinion highly I don't think anyone was communicating with Teleka except the voices inside her head. Even she admits that in her tweets.

About it being a guy thing versus a girl thing. One thing I have noticed is the disparity in when a female becomes a stalker and when a male is accused of being one. When a man does it.........it is off with his head so to speak but if a male is the victim of the stalking then it seems some want to blame him for being stalked by the female. That is the huge double standards I have seen in this case.[/SIZE][/FONT]

IMO

This is the biggest point that the PI has either not explained or not explained well to the family. Or they just don't want to hear it, I can believe any of those 3 options.

My firm does cell and computer forensics. We testify in court on it. We catch domestic infidelity with it. We busted a corporate embezzler of $10MM last year with it. The police/detectives had all of her communication devices. They have the power to subpoena the records from all the telecom service providers and 3rd parties like yahoo/hotmail etc. They have the ability to subpoena any suspect's same information.

I can't speak to what or how they did the forensics, but to think they weren't done at all is foolishness, especially given the unique aspect of SM in this case and 400 pages of supporting documentation on the PPO....

If anyone else was answering her or in communication with her, it would be fairly easy to find out. Especially given the volume of her SM postings and access to devices.

At this point there is no evidence of a "burner". In fact, if needs be it would be relatively easy to exclude that possibility by logging which device(s) and/or IPs the SM postings that we have 20K date stamped examples of came from. This wouldn't exclude 100% a burner, but it would strain the credibility of TP using one phone/device to massively populate the twitterverse with tweets that read like a conversation/responses and then use a separate device to hold a secret set of parallel communications.

Mind you, the recipient would also have to be using a "burner"...EVERY TIME....or risk detection via subpoena of records....

Narrow the range of credibility on the burner idea to near zero IMO.

 

[weaselpuppy]

Just my two cents here but...

I think Teleka was seriously mentally ill.

[modsnip].

I think if she drowned, it was because someone took her to the water and held her under.

I don't see any other logical explanation.

I think that is all I have to say about this case.

RIP Teleka. Condolences to the family. I feel for them and I understand their concerns 100 %.

Explain what you feel is the logic, because I don't think anyone else is seeing that. Including all of the LE on this case. In fact there are only two parties that have any knowledge in the case that agree with you, both of whose judgment seems exceptionally clouded.

 

[Koolaid Man]

At this point there is no evidence of a "burner". In fact, if needs be it would be relatively easy to exclude that possibility by logging which device(s) and/or IPs the SM postings that we have 20K date stamped examples of came from. This wouldn't exclude 100% a burner, but it would strain the credibility of TP using one phone/device to massively populate the twitterverse with tweets that read like a conversation/responses and then use a separate device to hold a secret set of parallel communications.

Mind you, the recipient would also have to be using a "burner"...EVERY TIME....or risk detection via subpoena of records....

Narrow the range of credibility on the burner idea to near zero IMO.

Pup is spot on, as usual =) I've seen a lot of her social media headers and I always see the iphone's distinctive marks on them. A burner phone isn't likely -- probably would've been found on her body or in the car if she did have one, IMHO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't know. Very few natural or artificial ponds/lakes are just instantly 3 feet deep at the edge except maybe stone quarries or non-recreational water reservoirs. Lake Charles doesn't seem to be either.

The photo of TP's body being recovered shows four divers standing about 15-20 feet out from the shoreline and they look to be between knee and thigh deep in water. The slope out to that point is almost certainly gradual, from inches to feet. If TP stumbled into the water and got mired in mud or some other debris then that's where she would've been found. Because she was found so much further out suggests, at least to me, that this was not an accident.

Nor is there a single shred of evidence that foul play was involved. So that leaves some form of suicide. However, suicide usually involves some forethought or planning. I do not believe that there was any forethought or planning to how Teleka ended up in that lake. I do, however, think that she might have been in such a fearful and irrational state of mind that night, that the water she came upon after fleeing the chaos of her experience on the highway might have appeared to her not as dangerous but rather a comforting, peaceful refuge. All the more so if she felt pursued by demons who were closing in on her.

Where she was found is not an indicator of where she went down when she drowned. Once the body rises it can float to other areas due to top winds on the surface. And decomposition rapidly sets in once the body surfaces while it is greatly slowed when the body is below the surface. Also lakes like this are known to have about a foot of silt/mud/muck on the bottom making it very difficult to get out of. So I think Teleka had been floating on the surface for days before she was found and that is why she was in a poor state of decomposition when found.

Suicide by drowning is very rare. Usually when someone picks this method of suicide they will make sure they have something tied to them weighing them down where they cant resurface. Or if they cant swim they will plunge themselves into very deep water. Instinctively a person wants to rise to the top gasping for air as air is being depleted. I would think it is one of the rarest forms of suicide.... like suicide by burning oneself up is also rare.

I really don't see this as a suicidal act. I do think her delusional mind made this accident much more likely to occur. Imo, Teleka's mind wasn't rational that night, and she would need a clear mind in order to try to quickly find away out of the predicament she had found herself in. The first thing she would have to do is quickly shed her heavy outer clothing that would be dragging her under in order to possibly save herself or at least try. But because she was in a confused state of mind she couldn't think of rational things that may have saved her from drowning.

I don't think she ever saw the lake before she ran right into the water. It was dark, and she knew nothing about her surroundings. There were tall weeds all around the pond hiding that it was even there. Only people that were familiar with the area would have known it was there.

I think this was just a tragic accident. Her delusions sure didn't help the situation, but I don't think she intentionally killed herself.

 

[Prosecution_Rests]

I don't think she ever saw the lake before she ran right into the water. It was dark, and she knew nothing about her surroundings. There were tall weeds all around the pond hiding that it was even there. Only people that were familiar with the area would have known it was there.

I think this was just a tragic accident. Her delusions sure didn't help the situation, but I don't think she intentionally killed herself.[/SIZE][/FONT][/I]

RSBM:

I agree. In these cases, it's not an accident in the way that most people would have accidents and it's not a suicide in the way that most people would commit suicide.

To be honest, it's neither of them but it is also technically both. In short, it's complicated. There a technical definition and a clinical definition.

 

[SwampMama]

YHTBFKM

Y'all can guess at that acronym...I'm too pissed to explain.

My guess is "You have to be freakin kidding me?" :angel:

Your results may vary, lol

I think this PI is a moron. Especially with his "could have been pushed" theory. Heck Bigfoot "could" have pushed her too. Or an alien. Heck, even Jimma Hoffa "could" have pushed her.

But meanwhile, back in reality.....

I said it nicely before in another post but I will say it more frankly now. The ONLY thing pursuing Teleka that night were her own tormented thoughts.

At no point did MS "pursue" Teleka, we have thousands of texts, hundreds of pages, videos of her communication to him. His only reply to her was a restraining order.

Teleka was tormented in life (by her thoughts and illness, etc). She needs to be allowed to REST IN PEACE!!

MS was clearly an innocent victim of Teleka's obsession. he and his family do NOT deserve to have to go thru anything else because of Teleka's family.

 

[Loudmouth]

While it's possible that Teleka never saw the lake or that she tripped and fell into it, I think Teleka purposely walked into the lake. It may simply have been the spot the voices directed her to go to. I had a relative that suffered from similar delusions. Voices urge mentally ill people to do all sorts of nonsensical things: "Stand over there in that spot so the demons can't jump on you. Put your hands over your head so that angels will recognize you." We can see how easily a person could drown if they were going through something like that. Dr. Patrick had suffered terribly from mental afflictions for quite some time. We see an escalation of the anger, superstition, fear and confusion right up to her very last tweet. I take that as an indication that her mind had finally snapped completely.

I have a question though: I keep seeing comments on MS's page saying that as a pastor he should have tried to get her to get help instead of kicking her out of his church. I am not a Christian, so I don't know if that is a role that pastors typically fill? Or is it the norm that you get kicked out for violating the pastor's privacy?

 

[Loudmouth]

Many times mentally ill people hurt/kill themselves based on a delusion or paranoia. They jump off ledges, to get away from something, etc.

So, imo...it can be labeled an accident but quite often, the mentally ill person's condition is responsible for their death and so it's an accident by virtue of mental illness or more technically, can also be considered a suicide as well, in many cases.

Tomato, tomahto. Pretty much the same thing in these kind of circumstances, really.

That's my conclusion as well. It was an accidental suicide. Voices tell mentally ill people to do very strange things. Put tin foil on your head so people can't read your thoughts. Flush the toilet 6 times and then flick the lights on and off. Walk over there, through those bushes. Put your hands up so God knows you're innocent.

People with mental illness can stay still for a long time...if the voices say lay on the floor with your legs straight in the air, they LITERALLY can hold that position for 24 hours.

I think Dr. Patrick walked right out into the lake, (under the command of the voices which had grown hostile and threatening), struck a bizarre pose and drowned.

 

[Loudmouth]

MENTAL ILLNESS LINKED TO ACCIDENTAL DEATH

Strong associations were also found between having a mental illness and different types of accidental deaths, especially poisoning and falls. Sociodemographic risk factors for a mental illness-related accidental death included male gender, older age, unmarried status, and low socioeconomic status.


One possible explanation for these findings, Crump and his colleagues suggested, is that common symptoms of psychiatric illness, such as fatigue, poor concentration, and sleep disturbance, may increase the chance of accidents through impaired judgment, coordination, and reaction time. Psychotropic medications may also contribute to these risks as a result of side effects or unintentional overdosing. In addition, some mental disorders are linked with risk-taking or self-destructive behaviors that may occur on a continuum from subintentional to intentional, increasing the chances of either an accidental death or suicide, they noted.


“These findings highlight the need for psychiatrists and other health care providers to be more aware of the risks of accidental death in addition to suicide among psychiatric patients,” Crump said during an interview with Psychiatric News. “Interventions to reduce early mortality among these patients should address underlying common determinants of accidental death in addition to suicide.”


The study was funded by the U.S. National Institute on Drug Abuse and the Swedish Research Council. ■


An abstract of “Mental Disorders and Risk of Accidental Death” is posted at http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/early/20113/08/10/bjp.bp.112.123992.abstract