MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #2

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Spellbound said:
Photographer? Tripod? I don't follow you, FindHG. Can you expound?
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Of course, Spellbound. I noticed a tripod leaned against a shelf. I don't have a tripod, but I've noticed people who do, often amateur photographers or pros tend to use them more often then your weekend or event warriors, in the age of selfies. I've had to borrow tripods for projects though, three times, and each time the non-pros have a hard time finding them. It was interesting that this tripod was there on hand, as it were, so I wondered who would have been the most frequent user, which I would imagine may be a serious photographer or videographer.
 
Spellbound said:
I realize that it was ruled out, Bessie. But it nags at me. If she "fainted" and "whoever" got scared and dumped her in the tub of cold water, it fits the scenario of no noticeable signs of strangulation or a fight, no water in the lungs. I wonder if it isn't still a possibility that she got hyper-anxious, passed out, and the person got scared and tried to cover up what was thought to be a death?


ETA ... it was ruled out as the "cause", but could it have contributed in some way, nonetheless?
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If you "pass out", "faint", or lose consciousness suddenly, you continue to breathe. When one is denied oxygen for an extended period of time (suffocated), there are physical signs that can be detected at autopsy. I'll have to look for links later, but if my memory is correct, the eyes will be bloodshot, and elevated levels of carbon dioxide will be detected in the bloodstream. So I *think* that is how they ruled out VS. JMO, and I will update with more info tomorrow.
 
Spellbound said:
I realize that it was ruled out, Bessie. But it nags at me. If she "fainted" and "whoever" got scared and dumped her in the tub of cold water, it fits the scenario of no noticeable signs of strangulation or a fight, no water in the lungs. I wonder if it isn't still a possibility that she got hyper-anxious, passed out, and the person got scared and tried to cover up what was thought to be a death?


ETA ... it was ruled out as the "cause", but could it have contributed in some way, nonetheless?
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Doesn't the whole fainted thing sounds like a story to fit the bill? It does to me, contrived. It's been ruled out, if I'm reading things correctly, I may be wrong. Why would the perp need to cut off her breathing before, asphyxiation as it were, drowning her?
 
Spellbound said:
Or "friends" of POI?




Not that I have heard, but the stepfather did get an attorney early on.



No water in the lungs??? Is this actually recorded on the autopsy report? Is the autopsy report public? How can a person drown and there be no water in the lungs? Anyway, it is ruled asphyxiation with drowning.... so we can't assume she was not drowned.

It was investigated as a "possible homicide" quite quickly. Maybe even earlier than we, as the public, are aware.



BBM
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Agreed. COD includes drowning. It is reported that she was alive when placed in the tub, so she would have ingested water into the lungs.
 
FindHG said:
Doesn't the whole fainted thing sounds like a story to fit the bill? It does to me, contrived. It's been ruled out, if I'm reading things correctly, I may be wrong. Why would the perp need to cut off her breathing before, asphyxiation as it were, drowning her?
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The obvious answer is to stage it to look like an accidental drowning while bathing. That's not a perfect theory, however, because she was partially clothed. Unless -- big stretch here -- the idea was to make it appear she fainted and fell into the tub of water while preparing to take a bath. The unnatural body position might fit in with this scenario. JMO
 
bessie said:
The obvious answer is to stage it to look like an accidental drowning while bathing. That's not a perfect theory, however, because she was partially clothed. Unless -- big stretch here -- the idea was to make it appear she fainted and fell into the tub of water while preparing to take a bath. The unnatural body position might fit in with this scenario. JMO
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Agreed.

About detective:

$10K reward offered for information in Julia Niswender killing
By Katrease Stafford Posted on Tue, Apr 9, 2013 : 5:58 a.m.
 This may have been the PI and Family spokesman

"Duvall Group Investigations PLLC has posted the reward," said Kim Turnquist, Niswender’s mother. "The owner, Ryan, has been a family friend for years. We have not hired his services. We are confident that the (Ypsilanti) Police Department will find justice for Julia and my family."

Family Dynamics:

Julia Niswender's family as one-year anniversary of her death nears: 'Nothing will ever be the same'
By Katrease Stafford on Nov 17, '13 wrote a foretelling must read of what's known now


"Each and everyone of us had that," Jim said. "I’m so delighted I gave my daughter a big hug that weekend. I told her I loved her and she said, 'I love you, too, Daddy.' That we have, many others don’t."


My mistake, hockeymom, here's a link correcting what I posted about the person who graduated with the girls, it was family spokeman, not a detective, like above.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/ypsila...ls-not-being-released-to-protect-investigati/
 
bessie said:
Agreed. COD includes drowning. It is reported that she was alive when placed in the tub, so she would have ingested water into the lungs.
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BBM

but that's the thing ..... with a vagal episode and then being put into the water, there would be no water in the lungs. (*per screen shot of book page above). Or being put into cold water, can cause a vagal reaction and no water in lungs on autopsy autopsy. With the vagal reflex, the muscle essentially shuts off the airway, thus no water enters lungs. It is what has saved some drowning victims from dying, if they are revived relatively quickly.

I believe that is what is called a "dry drowning", maybe even a diving reflex? The vagus nerve at top of larynx reacts by slowing then stopping heart rate. An impulse along laryngeal nerve causes a laryngospasm (which keeps water from entering lungs).

www.poolwatcher.au/ertrinken.pdf


More info along this line might be found by searching "vasovagal reflex mechanisms" or vagal reflex with drowning.



* which was removed. Sorry Bessie -- I didn't realize a screenshot of it was not allowed. Post 97 here has the link. Ipad won't let me retrieve it without losing my post.
 
FindHG said:
Agreed.

About detective:

$10K reward offered for information in Julia Niswender killing
By Katrease Stafford Posted on Tue, Apr 9, 2013 : 5:58 a.m.
 This may have been the PI and Family spokesman

"Duvall Group Investigations PLLC has posted the reward," said Kim Turnquist, Niswender’s mother. "The owner, Ryan, has been a family friend for years. We have not hired his services. We are confident that the (Ypsilanti) Police Department will find justice for Julia and my family."

Family Dynamics:

Julia Niswender's family as one-year anniversary of her death nears: 'Nothing will ever be the same'
By Katrease Stafford on Nov 17, '13 wrote a foretelling must read of what's known now


"Each and everyone of us had that," Jim said. "I’m so delighted I gave my daughter a big hug that weekend. I told her I loved her and she said, 'I love you, too, Daddy.' That we have, many others don’t."


My mistake, hockeymom, here's a link correcting what I posted about the person who graduated with the girls, it was family spokeman, not a detective, like above.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/ypsila...ls-not-being-released-to-protect-investigati/
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Interesting bit about the family dynamics. How did she kiss him and tell him she loved him the weekend before, if she had been spending the last three years living with grandma because of her "disagreement" with him.
 
They had Thanksgiving together .... I believe that was what he meant, but did she really say or do that?
 
I just have to say my head has never spun more on a case. I feel like I read one thing and then a read something else that contradicts it. I don't think it has to do with bad reporting.
 
hockeymom4 said:
I just have to say my head has never spun more on a case. I feel like I read one thing and then a read something else that contradicts it. I don't think it has to do with bad reporting.
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Agree! Most confusing case! :thinking: Having almost drowned myself saving a life, I can tell you that adrenalin kicks in like you would not believe! So, trying to outright drown someone would be very difficult in my opinion, she would put a fight like you would not be believe....
 
She didn't put up a fight because she was suffocated before being placed in the water.
 
bessie said:
She didn't put up a fight because she was suffocated before being placed in the water.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and when I said -
I can tell you that adrenalin kicks in like you would not believe! So, trying to outright drown someone would be very difficult in my opinion, she would put a fight like you would not be believe.
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I appears whomever did this knew this as well and and knew it is much easier to subdue someone out of water, instead of in it. .
 
OldSteve said:
Exactly, and when I said -
I appears whomever did this knew this as well and and knew it is much easier to subdue someone out of water, instead of in it. .
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Freaky. It would take an incredible amount of self-love, I imagine, if you'd ever told yourself you loved a person, to gently steal their breathe away and watch them drown. It's like the killer had to be right with themselves with how she perished. Just freaks me out thinking of it.
 
Spellbound said:
BBM

but that's the thing ..... with a vagal episode and then being put into the water, there would be no water in the lungs. (*per screen shot of book page above). Or being put into cold water, can cause a vagal reaction and no water in lungs on autopsy autopsy. With the vagal reflex, the muscle essentially shuts off the airway, thus no water enters lungs. It is what has saved some drowning victims from dying, if they are revived relatively quickly.

I believe that is what is called a "dry drowning", maybe even a diving reflex? The vagus nerve at top of larynx reacts by slowing then stopping heart rate. An impulse along laryngeal nerve causes a laryngospasm (which keeps water from entering lungs).

www.poolwatcher.au/ertrinken.pdf


More info along this line might be found by searching "vasovagal reflex mechanisms" or vagal reflex with drowning.



* which was removed. Sorry Bessie -- I didn't realize a screenshot of it was not allowed. Post 97 here has the link. Ipad won't let me retrieve it without losing my post.
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Thanks for doing the research and providing the link, Spellbound. I'm aware of "dry drowning" situations, but I've not seen a report which states there was no water in the lungs. As far as I know, the autopsy report has not been made public. I'm relying on the the LE statements provided to the media which say:

- The poor girl was asphyxiated, but alive;
- Then drowned in the tub;
- Her VS condition was ruled out as a factor;
- Cause of death is "asphyxiation associated with drowning"; and
- Manner of death is homicide.

In addition:

- The manner in which she was asphyxiated has not been determined;
- She was partially clothed;
- Her body was in an "unnatural position";
- There were no signs of external physical trauma;
- There was no sexual assault;
- No signs of a struggle;
- No forced entry; but
- Room was in "disarray";
- Items of value were not taken, and her purse was "untouched";
- Robbery does not appear to be a motive; and
- Suspicious evidence was left at the scene, but LE hasn't revealed details about the evidence;
- Stepfather has been named a POI, but LE is not calling him a "suspect" at this time. He has not been forthcoming about "his whereabouts in the days prior" to the murder.


http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2013/11/julia_niswender.html
http://www.annarbor.com/news/ypsila...-confirms-julia-niswender-drowned-in-bathtub/
http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2013/11/julia_niswender_family.html
http://www.capitalbay.com/latest-ne...r-she-didn-t-show-up-for-christmas-party.html
http://www.heritage.com/articles/2015/03/07/ypsilanti_courier/news/doc54f741b1bf7c4984549555.txt
 
The VI stated there was no water in the lungs. I am hoping she comes back to clarify if this was said in error or where this came from bc this has many greatly confused as it conflicts with what LE stated.
 
hockeymom4 said:
The VI stated there was no water in the lungs. I am hoping she comes back to clarify if this was said in error or where this came from bc this has many greatly confused as it conflicts with what LE stated.
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No, this is what MIMOMMY said:

"There are no reports of water in her lungs, therefore we can assume she was not drowned."
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Ypsilanti-Dec-2012-2&p=11569843#post11569843

Water or no water in her lungs, cause of death was ruled "asphyxiation associated with drowning". She was alive when submerged in the water.


"She was not deceased (beforehand,") Yuhas said. "It's never been determined (if she was unconscious.) But, she was definitely asphyxiated and then drowned."
http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2013/11/julia_niswender.html
 
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