MI MI - Julia Niswender, 23, EMU student, Ypsilanti, 10 Dec 2012 - #2

[black_squirrel]

I have a hard time making sense of this myself.

First of all, do we know whether there was water in the lungs in the autopsy report. The reports about the autopsy are confusing. As I understood it,
she was first asphyxiated, then drowned (while unconscious but still alive). I presume that it took a while to rule this a homicide because the autopsy
report is crucial. If she had just drowned, it might have been an accident. But if she was asphyxiated first, it must have been foul play. But the determination
whether she drowned, or was asphyxiated and drowned may be subtile and may require advanced expertise to tell the difference (I'm guessing here. Does anyone
know any similar cases where a person has been asphyxiated and then drowned?)

But as you say, the lack of signs of a struggle does not seem to make sense.

 

[Mountaingazer]

Do we, by any chance, have a verified coroner on websleuths. I too am so confused by the COD.

 

[bessie]

You mean like suffocation???...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappling

Submission holds: 2 types --- #1) those that would potentially strangle or suffocate an opponent (chokes)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold

FWIW.

Yes, as described in the links I posted last night.

http://ymaa.com/articles/use-neck-cranks-or-chokes-to-fight-an-adversary

http://breakingmuscle.com/martial-a...choke-or-what-happens-when-you-get-choked-out


The report is pretty clear. She was suffocated/asphyxiated prior to being placed in the tub.

Yuhas said the medical examiner's report shows Niswender died as a result of asphyxiation associated with drowning, but he confirmed the asphyxiation occurred prior to her being placed in the bathtub...

"We don't know how she was asphyxiated," Yuhas said, after indicating it could have been done in a number of ways.

http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2013/11/julia_niswender.html

 

[hockeymom4]

I was reading on asphyxiation and was reminded about several cases where people died near me, young people, and it was all due to sexual arousal. I know she wasn't sexual assaulted. Maybe she passed out and it didn't get that far, so the person put her in the tub to make it look like she drowned or committed suicide or something like that?

 

[tarabull]

Ed Zackery...aka EXACTLY.

ULTRA clear.

THANKS button is not enough...

:gthanks: Bessie, as always.

 

[bessie]

I have a hard time making sense of this myself.

First of all, do we know whether there was water in the lungs in the autopsy report. The reports about the autopsy are confusing. As I understood it,
she was first asphyxiated, then drowned (while unconscious but still alive). I presume that it took a while to rule this a homicide because the autopsy
report is crucial. If she had just drowned, it might have been an accident. But if she was asphyxiated first, it must have been foul play. But the determination
whether she drowned, or was asphyxiated and drowned may be subtile and may require advanced expertise to tell the difference (I'm guessing here. Does anyone
know any similar cases where a person has been asphyxiated and then drowned?)

But as you say, the lack of signs of a struggle does not seem to make sense.

The death was investigated as a homicide almost immediately. The official ruling of homicide came later from the ME.

December 17, 2012
A Washtenaw County medical examiner's autopsy report said there were no outward signs of trauma, but toxicology results were not in and the cause of death had yet to be determined, The Ypsilanti Courier reported.


The Ypsilanti Police Department said in a release there were indicators of possible foul play and her death was being investigated as an apparent homicide until proven otherwise, the Courier said.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012...ts-death-probed/32181355761205/#ixzz3TjuUOhi3
​

Jan 30, 2013
YPSILANTI, Mich. -- An autopsy has determined that someone killed a 24-year-old Monroe woman who was a Eastern Michigan University student, but the cause of her death remains unknown.

Ypsilanti police said today that the medical examiner's office ruled the death of Julia Niswender a homicide.


Read more at http://www.toledoblade.com/Police-F...-death-still-unknown.html#ctcYS62WA7VLGElj.99

Nov 15, 2013
"She was not deceased (beforehand,") Yuhas said. "It's never been determined (if she was unconscious.) But, she was definitely asphyxiated and then drowned."

 

[bessie]

I was reading on asphyxiation and was reminded about several cases where people died near me, young people, and it was all due to sexual arousal. I know she wasn't sexual assaulted. Maybe she passed out and it didn't get that far, so the person put her in the tub to make it look like she drowned or committed suicide or something like that?

I'm not so sure about the sexual arousal part, but the last part of your sentence is a good possibility, IMHO.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Ypsilanti-Dec-2012-2&p=11567803#post11567803

 

[lovinlife83]

Yes that is possible as well.

Ask yourself this though - IF your roommate came and left daily - to class, studying for midterms, to visit with her sister, to go to work - and then her car did not move for days - and you did not see her for days - and she had not mentioned leaving for a few days - and she did not text or leave a note that she was leaving for a few days - AND her alarm clock continued to go off this entire time....

How long would YOU wait to ask for a welfare check????

When I went to EMU and lived in an apartment in Ypsi & my hometown was about 45 minutes away. There were several occasions where roommates would disappear for a day or two and their alarm would be going off in the morning. I'm sure I did it to them on several occasions too. Because of my major I would often be in the CAD lab for 20-30 hours straight during finals week. I never called police or their parents to make sure they were ok. They could have went to a party and spent the night at a guys house or something and then went to work the next day, I didn't want to interfere with their personal life you know. With parking being so pitiful at EMU (at least it was in my day) I would often walk places whenever possible.
Eta- many alarm clocks will stop making noise after 15, 30 or 60 minutes and not go off again until the next day.

 

[lovinlife83]

I was reading on asphyxiation and was reminded about several cases where people died near me, young people, and it was all due to sexual arousal. I know she wasn't sexual assaulted. Maybe she passed out and it didn't get that far, so the person put her in the tub to make it look like she drowned or committed suicide or something like that?

I was thinking about this yesterday too. Also, jumping off that thought...not sure how to phrase this? Could it be possible that a person could be performing oral sex on a male and pass out trying to deep throat?

 

[tarabull]

I was thinking about this yesterday too. Also, jumping off that thought...not sure how to phrase this? Could it be possible that a person could be performing oral sex on a male and pass out trying to deep throat?

I'm going to let you google that one...lol.

:blushing:

 

[ModMaiden]

He does teach martial arts and there are techniques that allow you to subdue someone with pressure points. These techniques can be achieved in quick and quiet take-down methods. Self-defense moves or attacks can be just a pressure-point attack, which is a powerful force applied to human pressure points, the small points on the body.

You can take down an opponent just with one finger. It's called The Mask. This technique uses one of the human pressure points found under the nose to immobilize an attacker or victim.

Any types of techniques like these would make sense as to why there would be no struggle or signs of strangulation.

 

[Spellbound]

...friends of roommates.

This case basically is a mix of Jody meets Amanda in my opinion, for many reasons.

Or "friends" of POI?

Did any hire lawyers, that you know of?

Not that I have heard, but the stepfather did get an attorney early on.

Here's another area where I have always struggled - she was Asphixiated that we know. We know that there was no signs of trauma, no signs of sexual assault, and no signs of a medical issue as well as her toxicology came back clear. There are no reports of water in her lungs, therefore we can assume she was not drowned. In that situation we would have been seen DNA - at least in my opinion. I am not letting someone choke me to death, suffocate me, or drown me and not fighting back. If she was drunk or drugged first - would we have not seen that in the toxicology? The other issue I have is that I KNOW there was some sort of a struggle or interaction due to evidence - but then...why no signs of it on her body?

If you go back and look it was NOT ruled a homicide from the very beginning - it took awhile because there was so little for them to go on.

No water in the lungs??? Is this actually recorded on the autopsy report? Is the autopsy report public? How can a person drown and there be no water in the lungs? Anyway, it is ruled asphyxiation with drowning.... so we can't assume she was not drowned.

It was investigated as a "possible homicide" quite quickly. Maybe even earlier than we, as the public, are aware.



BBM

 

[FindHG]

Family says police determined Julia Niswender was drowned in her bathtub.
Posted April 11, 2013 relatives comment on the state of her body, possible motive, ...

A family hired private PI? How did that go?

"Police found Niswender partially clothed in the bathtub" from here

 

[rosesfromangels]

Just speculation, but it sounds to me like this was well researched, planned, and executed. Like a military maneuver.
Motive? She knew something and was going to tell.

 

[hockeymom4]

MIMommy, I was catching up on some old posts, since I joined late. I noticed you said her father works at the place you manage. In another post you said you spoke to her father who gave you an update that the case was still ongoing. Today you said they have no contact with their father.

So, did she call her stepdad her father? i know the Grandma said she moved out because of him. So, curious if she called him father and did he adopt them? Or did you actually speak to her father? Just wanted to clarify. Thanks so much.

 

[hockeymom4]

There are no reports of water in her lungs, therefore we can assume she was not drowned

"Yuhas said the medical examiner's report shows Niswender died as a result of asphyxiation associated with drowning, but he confirmed the asphyxiation occurred prior to her being placed in the bathtub."
http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2013/11/julia_niswender.html

No water in the lungs??? Is this actually recorded on the autopsy report? Is the autopsy report public? How can a person drown and there be no water in the lungs?

BBM

Snipped by me.

Just wanted to add something that clears something up for me in the article Bessie posted.

"We do know she was asphyxiated prior to being placed in the tub," said Ypsilanti Detective Joe Yuhas.

Yuhas said police believe Niswender was still alive at that point, but are uncertain if she was unconscious.

"She was not deceased (beforehand,") Yuhas said. "It's never been determined (if she was unconscious.) But, she was definitely asphyxiated and then drowned."

With that said, I don't know how it could be possible for her to not have water in her lungs.

 

[Spellbound]

I was wondering if Julia's vasovagal syncope could be seen on autopsy (didn't find that) and stumbled upon a bit of info to share. I can't copy it, but took a screen shot.

This book snippet appears to be more of a study on mice/rats, but does discuss human reactions, too.

"some deaths could be attributed to vagal overstimulation"

"in very stressful conditions, the animal can suffer from sudden death due to vagal overactivity after immersion"

"10-15% of people who die after falling into water, little or no water is found in the lungs on autopsy"


https://books.google.com/books?id=E..._yQTGsYE4&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[FindHG]

They had a photographer in the family, a readily available tripod. Could mean not a thing. Who was a serious photographer or maybe martial art videos? From bessie's links

 

[bessie]

I was wondering if Julia's vasovagal syncope could be seen on autopsy (didn't find that) and stumbled upon a bit of info to share. I can't copy it, but took a screen shot.

This book snippet appears to be more of a study on mice/rats, but does discuss human reactions, too.

"some deaths could be attributed to vagal overstimulation"

"in very stressful conditions, the animal can suffer from sudden death due to vagal overactivity after immersion"

"10-15% of people who die after falling into water, little or no water is found in the lungs on autopsy"


https://books.google.com/books?id=E..._yQTGsYE4&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

VS was "absolutely" ruled out as a factor.

Yuhas said investigators were aware of the medical condition, which was ruled out as a cause of death.

"It has absolutely been ruled out," Yuhas said.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Ypsilanti-Dec-2012-2&p=11567803#post11567803

 

[Spellbound]

I realize that it was ruled out, Bessie. But it nags at me. If she "fainted" and "whoever" got scared and dumped her in the tub of cold water, it fits the scenario of no noticeable signs of strangulation or a fight, no water in the lungs. I wonder if it isn't still a possibility that she got hyper-anxious, passed out, and the person got scared and tried to cover up what was thought to be a death?


ETA ... it was ruled out as the "cause", but could it have contributed in some way, nonetheless?