GUILTY MI - Renisha McBride, 19, shot while trying to get help, Detroit, Nov 2013

[nightwatch]

Bringing this forward for greenbean and others. Doesn't mention the angle though.



I was also thinking about the angle. Whether he held the shotgun up or it was more loosely in his hand and went of accidentally, as he once claimed. In that case the angle would have been upwards.

The angle may be an important factor in this case. How tall is he? It has been mentioned that she was petite. Also
Could she have already been sitting or laying down on the porch when he shot her? Jtol

Ciao

 

[Tawny]

The angle may be an important factor in this case. How tall is he? It has been mentioned that she was petite. Also
Could she have already been sitting or laying down on the porch when he shot her? Jtol

Ciao

My personal thoughts, and not backed up by fact here...

When I am holding our shotgun 'at rest', I tend to 'cradle' it in the crook of my elbow, and the barrel is angled up (which is why I never hold it like this while loaded ever, but that's moot). He's taller than she is, she's fairly short in stature. He may very well have been holding it like that, with a finger on the trigger (again, bad gun holding etiquette). He could also have been holding it with the stock resting on his hip.

Just throwing thoughts around.

 

[Karmady]

The angle may be an important factor in this case. How tall is he? It has been mentioned that she was petite. Also
Could she have already been sitting or laying down on the porch when he shot her? Jtol

Ciao

Not petite....5'4" 184 lbs. per the autopsy report

 

[Zuri]

IMO our life experiences form how we think or react in certain circumstances. I cannot begin to imagine how this guy must feel.

If we come to find out that this guy was an Iraq War veteran, would his action/reaction make more or less sense? If his mother was raped in a home invasion when he was younger, would his action/reaction make more or less sense? Are the friends she was with culpable for serving her alcohol, not taking her keys, letting her drive, get into an accident and end up on some random porch getting shot to death?

I have tried to wrap my head around this horrific chain of events. I think there is plenty of "blame" to go around. Two families are suffering and their lives have been upended. IMO, there were some poor choices made by both parties involved in this tragedy. JMV

 

[Tawny]

IMO our life experiences form how we think or react in certain circumstances. I cannot begin to imagine how this guy must feel.

If we come to find out that this guy was an Iraq War veteran, would his action/reaction make more or less sense? If his mother was raped in a home invasion when he was younger, would his action/reaction make more or less sense? Are the friends she was with culpable for serving her alcohol, not taking her keys, letting her drive, get into an accident and end up on some random porch getting shot to death?

I have tried to wrap my head around this horrific chain of events. I think there is plenty of "blame" to go around. Two families are suffering and their lives have been upended. IMO, there were some poor choices made by both parties involved in this tragedy. JMV

All of this. I agree. I can't even imagine.

 

[Elainera]

The angle may be an important factor in this case. How tall is he? It has been mentioned that she was petite. Also
Could she have already been sitting or laying down on the porch when he shot her? Jtol

Ciao

That's a good point especially thinking of what others said here that her BAL was very high. As far as I understand this is close to alcohol poisoning? She certainly wasn't walking straight anymore, and was stumbling perhaps. Did she sit? Fall?

 

[liljim]

And just to muddy it up again lol. There were two calls. He called and 911 called back. I assume you're taking this from the 911 recording. Can you confirm that and also whether you know for sure this was the first call or the second?

its from the first call, directly transcribed by me (ie not just something i read somewhere)

the second call where they call him back has not been made public, all we know about it is from the dispatcher, that the shooter says that he does not know the person he shot.

 

[liljim]

i think the prosecution is going to make this all about what happened after he opened the door, at the end of the day forget all that other stuff and just look at what happened after he opened the door.

i think they are going to rely on his statements and the physical evidence and ask the jurors to decide if they think he honestly AND reasonably felt like he was in imminent danger.

obviously i cant say for sure either way yet since there is still so much we dont know, but i think he is facing an uphill battle.

 

[Karmady]

its from the first call, directly transcribed by me (ie not just something i read somewhere)

the second call where they call him back has not been made public, all we know about it is from the dispatcher, that the shooter says that he does not know the person he shot.

I'm not doubting you. How do you know it was the first call?

I guess this is just the 911 call center's interpretation of it then:

“Just received a 911 call from a male [who] thinks he just shot someone on his porch. Then he hung up; we’re trying to call back,” the dispatcher tells officers around 4:46 am.

http://nation.time.com/2013/11/12/p...lls-in-timeline-for-renisha-mcbride-shooting/

eta: can you put the link to the call you're referring to here, please? I've found the call with the quotes from my post re the "thinks" tia

 

[Zuri]

i think the prosecution is going to make this all about what happened after he opened the door, at the end of the day forget all that other stuff and just look at what happened after he opened the door.

i think they are going to rely on his statements and the physical evidence and ask the jurors to decide if they think he honestly AND reasonably felt like he was in imminent danger.

obviously i cant say for sure either way yet since there is still so much we dont know, but i think he is facing an uphill battle.

By the same token, the prosecution may be facing an uphill battle. They are going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this man was NOT afraid for his life. Given the time of night, the sound of someone pounding on his door, probably talking loudly, this guy was probably on edge. Something in his brain told him to pick up his gun. What happened after he opened the door? I agree with you, that is where the lawyers begin their battle.

 

[liljim]

karmady, i know you arent doubting me im absolutely certain tho or i wouldnt be saying it, here is the actual call.

https://soundcloud.com/fergus-burns/theodore-wafer-911-call-after

zuri, i agree people can and will see it differently, but just to clarify one thing - they dont have to prove that he did not feel that way, they just have to prove that it was not reasonable that he felt that way. still difficult but also very different. and just my opinion, but from the way kym worthy sounded the other day i think she is going to argue against both, that he did not honestly fear for his life, and that even if he did it was clearly not reasonable to. that is very much just my opinion tho.

 

[Tawny]

It's troublesome that a jury can try to decide how someone was feeling.

 

[Karmady]

karmady, i know you arent doubting me im absolutely certain tho or i wouldnt be saying it, here is the actual call.

https://soundcloud.com/fergus-burns/theodore-wafer-911-call-after

zuri, i agree people can and will see it differently, but just to clarify one thing - they dont have to prove that he did not feel that way, they just have to prove that it was not reasonable that he felt that way. still difficult but also very different. and just my opinion, but from the way kym worthy sounded the other day i think she is going to argue against both, that he did not honestly fear for his life, and that even if he did it was clearly not reasonable to. that is very much just my opinion tho.

Thanks. I can't get it to play right now. My problem with my technology. But thanks a lot for the link and for not getting p*ssed off lol

 

[Zuri]

karmady, i know you arent doubting me im absolutely certain tho or i wouldnt be saying it, here is the actual call.

https://soundcloud.com/fergus-burns/theodore-wafer-911-call-after

zuri, i agree people can and will see it differently, but just to clarify one thing - they dont have to prove that he did not feel that way, they just have to prove that it was not reasonable that he felt that way. still difficult but also very different. and just my opinion, but from the way kym worthy sounded the other day i think she is going to argue against both, that he did not honestly fear for his life, and that even if he did it was clearly not reasonable to. that is very much just my opinion tho.

ITA that Kym Worthy will argue both. I tried to put myself in the shoes of Theodore Wafer. I am afraid to put myself in the shoes of McBride's parents.
I don't own a gun. I have 2 very large German Shepherds which hopefully is enough of a deterrent. If I thought that my children were in danger, and calling the cops was not an option in that moment, I cannot say with any degree of certainty what I would do. Chances are I would "unleash" my dogs in hopes that it would buy me and my family some time from any perceived threat. JMHO

 

[SilkySifaka]

The Homeowner was charged with murder. Following LE's lead, we are NOT going to play "bash/blame the victim" here. Yes, it is true she probably made a few mistakes, but LE says it is a murder charge for now. We will see how that plays out.

Salem

bump Under LE's lead this man committed murder

 

[Karmady]

bump Under LE's lead this man committed murder

no, he's charged with second degree murder, amongst other things. We alll know that people are charged with crimes they aren't necessarily going to be found guilty of. There have been a large number of recent examples. jmo

 

[Karmady]

karmady, i know you arent doubting me im absolutely certain tho or i wouldnt be saying it, here is the actual call.

https://soundcloud.com/fergus-burns/theodore-wafer-911-call-after

zuri, i agree people can and will see it differently, but just to clarify one thing - they dont have to prove that he did not feel that way, they just have to prove that it was not reasonable that he felt that way. still difficult but also very different. and just my opinion, but from the way kym worthy sounded the other day i think she is going to argue against both, that he did not honestly fear for his life, and that even if he did it was clearly not reasonable to. that is very much just my opinion tho.

So fergus burns is msm? Why in the world is he calling renisha by a completely wrong name? Nothing to do with the veracity of the recording. But I just noticed that the title of the video is Regina McBride. I guess I can understand that since it took me many days to be able to remember the name properly. But Regina wasn't one of the alternative spellings I was inclined to use by mistake!

 

[liljim]

that is the audio all MSM sites have linked to, i wouldnt post if it i wasnt sure but a mod can remove it since there seems to be some question. i guess the person who titled it made a mistake.



http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/2...-theodore-wafer-after-he-shot-renisha-mcbride

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2013/11/renisha_mcbride_911_call_i_jus.html#incart_river

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131115/METRO01/311150064/

 

[Tugela]

bump Under LE's lead this man committed murder

So therefore he must be guilty? Just because LE says so? I think not. No doubt his side will see things differently.

What his lawyer will say is that it was 4AM, it was dark, there was an apparent intruder trying to enter his home. There were no LE there to defend him and his family, there was only him and his gun. He could call LE, but by the time they arrived, his family could be dead. So he got his gun and went to the door ready to defend. As any man who calls himself a man would. Obviously the gun was at the ready, since no one in their right mind goes into a potential confrontation with a intruder with the gun not at the ready. He was afraid. There was a shape moving erratically and mumbling incoherently at the door, a shape that did not respond to his queries. In his fear of the unknown his finger tighten on the trigger and the gun went off.

Remember, he doesn't know that this is some 19 year girl who had an accident, from his perspective it is an apparently crazy person at his door. Who comes banging on a door at 4AM in the morning? Usually someone up to no good. You cannot judge this case on hindsight, you have to judge it based on how it appeared to him at the time.

The prosecutor says you should only consider what happened from the point she arrived at the door, you should not judge her based on what she did before. That goes both ways, you can't then turn around and say that this guy should not have shot a drunk accident victim. Because he had no way of knowing that she was drunk or that she was an accident victim. The argument the prosecutor is trying to use is just as valid for the defence.

Who is to say that didn't happen, it is believable that it could happen that way, especially considering her degree of intoxication. The bar is not for him to prove what happened, the bar is for the prosecution to prove that it didn't happen. And they are going to have trouble doing that IMO, based on what we know.

 

[greenbean]

Morning, all. Thanks to those that linked me up thread to earlier postings. I left WS after Kyron Horman's disappearance and did not come back until now. I have had a hard time finding Renisha's earlier threads and did as much back-reading as possible. I apologize if my questions threw the conversation off track.

ANYWHO, I'm looking for an article I read that mentioned the size of his porch. I think it is more of a poured concrete slab. I will look for a link that'll back that, IMO, he knew he hit her. At that distance, with a shotgun, I don't think there's a whole lot of room for doubt. Light on or off.

I think the "I think" was thrown in because he was setting himself up to claim it had been an accident.

I have been digging around through the dozens of articles I have read looking for the size of his porch. I did find this:

Carpenter described Wafer as a steadily employed high school graduate who spent a year at Northern Michigan University and whose only run-ins with the law involved a couple of decades-old drunken driving cases.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/renisha-mcbride-s-family-wants-to-know-why-she-was-shot-on-porch-1.6446974

There seems to be so much judgement aimed at Renisha for driving drunk. No, she SHOULD NOT have been driving drunk. Marijuana was decriminalized in Detroit in 2012. If the tests prove that Renisha was driving stoned she should not have been driving stoned.

However, Wafer was given the oppourtunity to correct his behavior as he grew older. To learn from his multiple DUI's and grow towards becoming a productive citizen that was a caretaker for his mother at the time of Renisha's death. Wafer has more than one DUI on his record, according to his attorney. It is a shame that Renisha did not survive the night in question. It is a shame that Wafer did not call the police. Then it's likely that Renisha would have been linked to the accident she caused and her father's banged up SUV.

Maybe Renisha would have gone on to be a steadily-employed high school graduate who spent a year at Northern Michigan University and whose only run-ins with the law involved a decades-old drunken driving case - if she had approached a different house that night.

Wafer also had a habit of leaving lights on in his house during the night, and she speculated that McBride could have seen the lights and thought someone was awake, if indeed she was seeking help as some reports have stated.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/15/new-details-on-theodore-wafer-the-man-who-shot-renisha-mcbride.html

Just sayin.'