MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #5

[human]

I looked for a link, but I cannot find it. Someone on here said the dogs hit on human bone smell.

Does anyone know anything about that?

No matter how you try to spin it, dogs do not hit on dead cows or deer, etc.

But where is the proof of that?

 

[Cappuccino]

I looked for a link, but I cannot find it. Someone on here said the dogs hit on human bone smell.

Does anyone know anything about that?

No matter how you try to spin it, dogs do not hit on dead cows or deer, etc.

But where is the proof of that?

I never heard of dogs that could hit on "human bone smell." I'm going to need a citation for that, because I don't believe that's possible. Cadaver dogs I certainly know about, but not dogs trained to hit on the smell of human bones.

And btw, even a hit by a well trained cadaver dog is only a presumptive test. Its not evidence until its backed up by a confirmatory test. It is, of course, a result that would warrant further investigation but that's all.

For example, if you get barked at by a trained sniffer dog, that's a reason for the police to pull you aside and question you about drugs and/or explosives. Maybe even strip search you for them, but if they do all that and find nothing, they let you go. You don't get arrested because the dog barked, because the dog alert is not evidence.

 

[SpringThyme]

Maybe it started as a prank and then morphed into a sexual assault...

 

[marlins]

Its probable that Jacob was taken to one of the two outbuildings that mysteriously burnt down on Rassier property. Coincidently, these buildings burnt down after the working theory changed from abduction by car to person on foot. Furthermore, the cause of the fire is undetermined.

 

[marlins]

I'm sure that most of you have seen this clip, but here is a link for those who haven't:

A Current Affair, October 26 1989, Jacob Wetterling, Jill Ireland, Zsa Zsa Gabor and Commercials - YouTube

at 4:25 is a real time shot of the abduction scene. It appears that the Rassier had a dirt driveway.

 

[human]

I never heard of dogs that could hit on "human bone smell." I'm going to need a citation for that, because I don't believe that's possible. Cadaver dogs I certainly know about, but not dogs trained to hit on the smell of human bones.

And btw, even a hit by a well trained cadaver dog is only a presumptive test. Its not evidence until its backed up by a confirmatory test. It is, of course, a result that would warrant further investigation but that's all.

For example, if you get barked at by a trained sniffer dog, that's a reason for the police to pull you aside and question you about drugs and/or explosives. Maybe even strip search you for them, but if they do all that and find nothing, they let you go. You don't get arrested because the dog barked, because the dog alert is not evidence.

I know withnJaycee Dugard the dog hit on humsn bones, but they turned out to be Native American bones from a long time ago.

I was selected by a dog at the airport in LAX. The LE tells you to stand there and not move. I could not figure out why the dog selected me. My luggage went through another process. They never told me what the dog hit on.

With Somer Thompson, the dog did not hit on the perp even though she was killed at his home. The dog did not indicate that she was anywhere on the prooerty.

I have heard of dogs missing the info, but have we heard of false positives?

 

[Cappuccino]

I know withnJaycee Dugard the dog hit on humsn bones, but they turned out to be Native American bones from a long time ago.

I was selected by a dog at the airport in LAX. The LE tells you to stand there and not move. I could not figure out why the dog selected me. My luggage went through another process. They never told me what the dog hit on.

With Somer Thompson, the dog did not hit on the perp even though she was killed at his home. The dog did not indicate that she was anywhere on the prooerty.

I have heard of dogs missing the info, but have we heard of false positives?

Yes, we have heard of false positives. You, for example. The dog at LAX selected you, and what were you, an international drugs smuggler? I'm guessing not...

Then there was the faked kidnapping in England - Carly Simons, I think her name was?? - where the child was alive all the time and the cadaver dogs alerted in her home. It turned out that they'd alerted to second hand furniture which had been bought from a charity shop, so most likely they were alerting to the scent of death from the previous owner.

Dog alerts are not evidence, they are presumptive tests and highly suggestive, but on their own they are not evidence of guilt. Or innocence.

 

[human]

I'm sure that most of you have seen this clip, but here is a link for those who haven't:

A Current Affair, October 26 1989, Jacob Wetterling, Jill Ireland, Zsa Zsa Gabor and Commercials - YouTube

at 4:25 is a real time shot of the abduction scene. It appears that the Rassier had a dirt driveway.

This just brings it all back. I know when it happened that I thought Jacob would be back home. When the weekend came and we went to search, the reality had started to sink in. This was not like the story of the Ransom of Red Chief.

I knew nothing about sexual abuse. That was not even on my radar screen.

I learned more than I ever wanted to know because of Jacob. I went to a conference and the father of Kevin Collins was there. He looked a hundred years old.

I had to have my friend drive home because I got the one and only migraine head ache I have ever had. It was beyond horrifying

 

[human]

Yes, we have heard of false positives. You, for example. The dog at LAX selected you, and what were you, an international drugs smuggler? I'm guessing not...

Then there was the faked kidnapping in England - Carly Simons, I think her name was?? - where the child was alive all the time and the cadaver dogs alerted in her home. It turned out that they'd alerted to second hand furniture which had been bought from a charity shop, so most likely they were alerting to the scent of death from the previous owner.

Dog alerts are not evidence, they are presumptive tests and highly suggestive, but on their own they are not evidence of guilt. Or innocence.

I was in a foreign country where people do use drugs rather openly. I had art objects that I had purchased, so there could have been drug residue on a purchase. I am not a drug user, BTW.

It seems that dogs alert on death. There has to have been a human death for the dog to alert. What can be the explanation for that?

 

[Cappuccino]

Its not correct to say that "there has to have been a human death for the dog to alert", I'm afraid. In a perfect world that would be true, but in reality it isn't, and that is why dog alerts are presumptive tests which are not admissable in court. Like polygraphs, or luminol, they are suggestive, they can be very useful to LE, but on their own they are not evidence.

If you look at the fact that a drug sniffer dog alerted to you at LAX and then look at the first sentence in your post above, I'm sure you can see yourself why dog alerts aren't admissable in court.

 

[Cappuccino]

And incidentally, the failure of a dog to alert is not evidence of innocence either.

 

[human]

Its not correct to say that "there has to have been a human death for the dog to alert", I'm afraid. In a perfect world that would be true, but in reality it isn't, and that is why dog alerts are presumptive tests which are not admissable in court. Like polygraphs, or luminol, they are suggestive, they can be very useful to LE, but on their own they are not evidence.

If you look at the fact that a drug sniffer dog alerted to you at LAX and then look at the first sentence in your post above, I'm sure you can see yourself why dog alerts aren't admissable in court.

My point is that there is something there that the dogs are smelling. Why the dogs smelled human death at DR's is the question.

Here is an article on dogs trained to locate human bones

http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/meet-the-indiana-jones-of-detection-dogs

 

[Cappuccino]

Thanks for the article about archaelogists training dogs to sniff out human bones, that was interesting and informative. But not, I'm afraid, relevant to whatever dog activity was involved on the Rassier farm back in 1989.

A more relevant question is the one you asked .....

Why the dogs smelled human death at DR's is the question.

How do you know what they smelled? Cadaver dogs can alert to the scent of blood and other bodily fluids which have emanated from a live body because once those fluids leave the body they start to decay. Cadaver dogs can alert to the scent of death from either bodily fluids, or actual death, from years ago too. I gave you an example with the kidnapped child who wasn't really kidnapped, and the cadaver dogs alerted to the second hand furniture.

There are good reasons why a cadaver dog alert, on its own, does not reach the standard of certainty where it could be considered evidence. You must know that from your own experience with drug sniffer dogs at LAX, and your own - perfectly reasonable - explanation for it.

 

[human]

Thanks for the article about archaelogists training dogs to sniff out human bones, that was interesting and informative. But not, I'm afraid, relevant to whatever dog activity was involved on the Rassier farm back in 1989.

A more relevant question is the one you asked .....



How do you know what they smelled? Cadaver dogs can alert to the scent of blood and other bodily fluids which have emanated from a live body because once those fluids leave the body they start to decay. Cadaver dogs can alert to the scent of death from either bodily fluids, or actual death, from years ago too. I gave you an example with the kidnapped child who wasn't really kidnapped, and the cadaver dogs alerted to the second hand furniture.

There are good reasons why a cadaver dog alert, on its own, does not reach the standard of certainty where it could be considered evidence. You must know that from your own experience with drug sniffer dogs at LAX, and your own - perfectly reasonable - explanation for it.

I am talking about the dogs in this latest search where they dug up the farm and sifted through tons of material and kept some for advances in technology in the future.

So, I ask once again, why did the dogs alert on human whatever--bones or remains--- in that pit?

 

[Cappuccino]

Human - cadaver dogs can alert to blood and other bodily fluids from live bodies, because once the fluids leave the body they start to decay. Cadaver dogs can alert to the scent of a death old enough to be left behind on second hand furniture, or left in your house by previous occupants.

So maybe somebody bled there, or spat there, or vomited there, or maybe a person died there 50 or 100 years ago. Or to put it more shortly, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence. They are not going to become evidence even if you ask me the same question again and again. Its a presumptive test, if you want it to become evidence, show me the results of the follow up, confirmatory test.

 

[human]

Human - cadaver dogs can alert to blood and other bodily fluids from live bodies, because once the fluids leave the body they start to decay. Cadaver dogs can alert to the scent of a death old enough to be left behind on second hand furniture, or left in your house by previous occupants.

So maybe somebody bled there, or spat there, or vomited there, or maybe a person died there 50 or 100 years ago. Or to put it more shortly, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence. They are not going to become evidence even if you ask me the same question again and again. Its a presumptive test, if you want it to become evidence, show me the results of the follow up, confirmatory test.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I am not saying it is evidence.

We do not know if they were cadaver dogs. Do you have information that says that? If so, cadaver dogs do not hit on vomit or spit , as you should know since you appear to have such knowledge about cadaver dogs.

The Rassiers have lived there for years. I imagine they would know if someone died in their pit.

 

[human]

As far as pedophiles, there are many kinds. There are the ones that will only have sex with children in their family, for instance.

It would be nice if you could put people in a category and they fit that category. Too bad it does not work in real lifel

 

[cGorg]

I'm sure that most of you have seen this clip, but here is a link for those who haven't:

A Current Affair, October 26 1989, Jacob Wetterling, Jill Ireland, Zsa Zsa Gabor and Commercials - YouTube

at 4:25 is a real time shot of the abduction scene. It appears that the Rassier had a dirt driveway.

I looked at the frame at 4:25...that is the dirt approach directly across from DR's driveway. If you look at any other aerial 1989 pictures that show the intersection you can see the difference in color + texture of the dirt approach on the west + the gravel driveway on the east.

Thanks for the news clip. What a great kid. I have a 10 yr old son with the same bright eyed full of life demeanor....after seeing this I am too sad to say anything else.

 

[KeepHopeAlive]

I'm sure that most of you have seen this clip, but here is a link for those who haven't:

A Current Affair, October 26 1989, Jacob Wetterling, Jill Ireland, Zsa Zsa Gabor and Commercials - YouTube

at 4:25 is a real time shot of the abduction scene. It appears that the Rassier had a dirt driveway.

I just wanted to point out that there was a question that we've had previously about when the boys were asked their ages and when they were told to run, and it was answered in this video by Aaron. All of the boys were asked their ages and then Trevor was told to run.

 

[human]

To me, this situation indicates a great knowledge of the exact area.

Apparently the perp had no flashlight, but was able to move around in total darkness.

He knew there was a ditch there, in the total darkness.

He knew he could tell the boys to run off into the woods. I cannot see how it is a random stranger.