MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #8

[Sigrun]

we may have to look at the innermost circle first- the people we know who were at or near the scene and then go outside the circle. This means looking at DR and Kevin first, then after we can rule them out, then move forward. We could never rule them out though so we just went outside the circle.

That's what I was thinking as well; focusing on DR and K+K. As I learn more about the case I'll branch out. You guys had an amazing discussion on like, page 5 about LRH and I wonder what can be found.

~ svh

 

[Sasquatch321]

The reporters are standing on top of the abduction site, who knew they were coming back over that hill? without parents on bikes behind them? The boys saw nothing on the way to the store, and trevor and aaron also heard or saw no vehicle when they ran and looked back. In 2004 the only set of tire tracks was excluded.

 

[Tammy N]

It makes perfect sense that Feeney was the 'medical cop' at Tom Thumb. I missed that entire conversation somehow. Has anyone been able to make any connection between DR and Feeney? If so, I could surely see a scenario where the two of them had a hand in it rather than DR solely as the perp.

 

[Tammy N]

The reporters are standing on top of the abduction site, who knew they were coming back over that hill? without parents on bikes behind them? The boys saw nothing on the way to the store, and trevor and aaron also heard or saw no vehicle when they ran and looked back. In 2004 the only set of tire tracks was excluded.

I need to find it, but I am pretty sure I read somewhere that one of the boys (Aaron?) said that he thought he had heard rustling in the grass on the ride to Tom Thumb? Anyone?

 

[Sigrun]

Could I get some clarification as to what 'points' you disagree with? I really didn't think I was trying to make any point at all. Merely pointed out the reported reason that Kevin eventually came forward.

Tammy, looks like I read it too fast! Although I don't entirely agree with "this has nothing at all to do with what actually happened"; inasmuch as I used it to illustrate a point about alibis. Maybe a bad illustration, but a noble attempt

~ svh

 

[Sasquatch321]

I need to find it, but I am pretty sure I read somewhere that one of the boys (Aaron?) said that he thought he had heard rustling in the grass on the ride to Tom Thumb? Anyone?

DR is the only logical person that saw the boys going to the store and knowing their return. It's DR doing some kind of special ops like in vietnam, he loses the first chance and takes full advantage of the second.

 

[Sigrun]

I need to find it, but I am pretty sure I read somewhere that one of the boys (Aaron?) said that he thought he had heard rustling in the grass on the ride to Tom Thumb? Anyone?

Yes, on his left hand side at or near the abduction site on the way to the store. He thought it was an animal I think, but didn't know if it was a person.

~ svh

 

[Caoutchouc]

Tammy, it could have possibly been someone visiting DR. And I am leaning towards it being a spontaneous act, but it seems like my suspect list and mo changes and gets larger daily.

and caout, we have deducted a while back that the "medical cop" was most likely Matt Feeney. He drove a former police car with a CB radio and has a record of child molestation against boys. Please see here:

MN MN - Jacob Wetterling, 11, St. Joseph, 22 Oct 1989 - #4 - Page 36 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
http://www.joybaker.com/2013/04/01/a-few-answers-many-more-questions/

Yes, I absolutely read your discussion here. I'm discounting it a bit, only to attempt to make a fresh pass at everything and reopen some possibilities.

That might sound daunting, but perhaps together with Sigrun's BestFit profiling, something new and more precise may come to light.

 

[Tammy N]

DR is the only logical person that saw the boys going to the store and knowing their return. It's DR doing some kind of special ops like in vietnam, he loses the first chance and takes full advantage of the second.

I, too, feel that DR is the most likely to have abducted Jacob. With this Feeney thrown in (if it WAS him at the Tom Thumb that night at that time), I can also like that he had a visitor that night and the both of them had a hand in this. I have swayed and looked at and bought in to many other possible POI's, but, like I said, I do keep swinging back around to DR.

I don't know about the whole special ops hiding in the bush scene, and I don't think he was hiding in the grass lying in wait when they were on their way TO Tom Thumb. He had reportedly been out running, and it was dark at that time. Quite dark, actually, thus the boys brought flashlights. He could have been running along the road towards his home and heard/saw the boys coming down the road, then went into the ditch at that time, at which point he deduced they would be coming back that way, more than likely had enough time to go down the drive, grab some of his mother's nylon stockings (which we know for a fact that she hung over the shower rod), something resembling (I don't think he actually had a real gun) a gun and went back to wait for their return. He stops the boys, asks their age, etc

Alternatively, if we factor in Feeney, let's try this scenario: Feeney was visiting DR. Feeney was readying to leave DR's and when walking to his vehicle he heard the boys and he followed in the ditch. Awaited their return and stopped them, taking Jake (here is where the car facing towards the house in the driveway theory comes in) grabs him, pushing him into the car, moves it up to the house, and brings Jake inside to DR. Feeney then leaves to go to the Tom Thumb to watch all the chaos unfold. A stretch. But I could buy that.

 

[Sigrun]

Yes, I absolutely read your discussion here. I'm discounting it a bit, only to attempt to make a fresh pass at everything and reopen some possibilities.

That might sound daunting, but perhaps together with Sigrun's BestFit profiling, something new and more precise may come to light.

Well, it is an interesting read. Can we say that there are inconsistencies in Kevin's story?
1. It sounds like he said initially he turned around by pulling in then out, then with Joy he said he went all the way back to the house and looped.
2. He initially said he spoke to a policeman at the driveway, then later reported he spoke to officers in town.

Also, has it ever been resolved how quickly the police got out to the abduction site after the 911 call ended? It sounded as if they were going directly based on Trevor and Aaron's directions. If so, isn't the time window that Kevin drove down to the driveway very narrow? We also know that around 10:10 P&J drove down that road with a police car. Kevin says he didn't leave his house until no earlier than 9:45.

~ svh

 

[KeepHopeAlive]

Where is it stated that DR was out running in the dark? I don't recall ever seeing a time frame given for the time he was out running that day.

 

[Sigrun]

I, too, feel that DR is the most likely to have abducted Jacob. With this Feeney thrown in (if it WAS him at the Tom Thumb that night at that time), I can also like that he had a visitor that night and the both of them had a hand in this. I have swayed and looked at and bought in to many other possible POI's, but, like I said, I do keep swinging back around to DR.

I don't know about the whole special ops hiding in the bush scene, and I don't think he was hiding in the grass lying in wait when they were on their way TO Tom Thumb. He had reportedly been out running, and it was dark at that time. Quite dark, actually, thus the boys brought flashlights. He could have been running along the road towards his home and heard/saw the boys coming down the road, then went into the ditch at that time, at which point he deduced they would be coming back that way, more than likely had enough time to go down the drive, grab some of his mother's nylon stockings (which we know for a fact that she hung over the shower rod), something resembling (I don't think he actually had a real gun) a gun and went back to wait for their return. He stops the boys, asks their age, etc

Alternatively, if we factor in Feeney, let's try this scenario: Feeney was visiting DR. Feeney was readying to leave DR's and when walking to his vehicle he heard the boys and he followed in the ditch. Awaited their return and stopped them, taking Jake (here is where the car facing towards the house in the driveway theory comes in) grabs him, pushing him into the car, moves it up to the house, and brings Jake inside to DR. Feeney then leaves to go to the Tom Thumb to watch all the chaos unfold. A stretch. But I could buy that.

Just looking at the crime scene and witness statements, I think someone was there with DR (besides K+K). Going with your theory, it would be DR and some other adult male, maybe Feeney. I'm not sure DR grabbed JEW at first. If this is the same person that called himself a "medical cop" then it gets interesting.

I think the person that actually made initial contact was young, immature or Histrionic and was some kind of outdoors nut. But I lean against young and think more like thirties.

~ svh

 

[ELOCsoul]

I'm not sure I'm following your question here, sorry. I'll break it down as I see it, at least as one of any number of possible reasons. He and gf are the perps (hypothetical). So, they tell their relatives they are guilty of a lesser crime. So they agree to give him and her an alibi. Years later one of them gets religion and says he and she have to come clean about driving down the driveway. The relatives know about that, but they don't know the full extent of the his and her crime. So, he and she can leave that illusion in place and come forward by admitting he and she were in fact there. Otherwise, his religious relative is going to spoil his entire alibi and all attention will be on him and her for the crimes they actually committed.

As for the Marshals Service, that's nothing more dramatic than the mechanism by which he revealed that he drove down the driveway ... that's all. He did what his relatives asked. It was just how he felt most comfortable doing it. LE didn't have to do anything wrong here at all. And if I were in his or her shoes, this is exactly how I would do it (hypothetically). This is one way a certain personality type can get alibis, imo.

Whatever his criminal record might be, it doesn't really have any bearing if you just take a sec to look at some well-known serial killers, for example. They are not always known offenders. If he is in LE himself, all the more likely he was never caught, imo.

~ svh

To be clear about your first question; you realize, he is lying to everyone right? He's lying to his relatives and the police.

I'll provide a concrete example. K+K tell their relatives they sold a pound (?) of crack cocaine to DR 15 minutes after the abduction, and no one realized yet anything else had happened. His family agrees to give him an alibi for the time of the abduction, even though he wasn't with his relatives then. They do this to protect him from scrutiny over the abduction. And the family doesn't talk because they believe they have a good reason to; the two will likely be inculpated in a much more serious crime if they don't. Relatives never make good alibis and this is just one way they can be made to order. I'm not saying this particular example happened, I'm illustrating how it can happen, and how easy it is.

Don't get me wrong, the scenario you are putting out there is good original thinking. It's logical, but it's difficult fitting all the pieces in.

DR has said that Kevin's car is not the one he saw at about the time of the abduction. Under almost any scenario we know that Kevin's car was the last car in the driveway that night, at least until LE arrived. How would you fit the other two cars that DR saw, into your scenario? Why would Kevin drive back there repeatedly, in different vehicles each time? Wouldn't Kevin have to explain the use of various vehicles to his posse that found religion 14 years later?

Keep in mind here, that Kevin admits to being the third car in the driveway, and that is after Jacob was taken, after the police went screaming past his house, after Merles 911 call. That means he would have had to have taken Jacob on the second pass through DR's driveway, and it also means that second and third pass could only have been a few minutes apart. What would Kevin have done with Jacob while making that third trip, stopping at the Tom Thumb, and stopping at Dr. Cotton's office??

 

[Sigrun]

Yes, I absolutely read your discussion here. I'm discounting it a bit, only to attempt to make a fresh pass at everything and reopen some possibilities.

That might sound daunting, but perhaps together with Sigrun's BestFit profiling, something new and more precise may come to light.

And while we're on the topic of those first few minutes, another curve ball. If you've ever lived on a dirt road, especially with gravel in it, you'll notice that it packs hard where the tires run. It's softer in the middle and on the edges. The tracks they picked up on the driveway were in a soft area, which implies the car was over to the side of the road.

So perhaps the tire tracks that look "fresh" were laid as we're told by Kevin's car. But why was Kevin pulled over?

We might ask, well, any car could have made that track and multiple vehicles could have moved over the packed section. Yes, but even if we accept the parade of cars DR claims came in, there was only one according to DR in that time window (Joy). It was Kevin who said his car came in the driveway at about that time. These stories don't match because if DR could see one car he says was not Kevin's (he was sure about this), then why couldn't he see Kevin's? DR seemed astute about cars coming up his driveway and it actually sounds like it was only one. DR was most likely being deceptive and saw Kevin's car.

So, back to the pull over. One car. Kevin. Why did he pull over? Now, why did DR lie about not seeing Kevin's car when it looks like he actually did. And why was he so conspicuous in that lie to be certain it wasn't Kevin? Is this collusion?

~ svh

 

[Tammy N]

Where is it stated that DR was out running in the dark? I don't recall ever seeing a time frame given for the time he was out running that day.

I apologize that I wasn't completely clear. I got caught up with theories and didn't mean to imply he was actually out running at night as fact. He did, in fact, say he was out running that day. Not sure at all if there was a time alluded to. I am throwing out possible scenarios how it could have happened, is all.

 

[Sigrun]

Don't get me wrong, the scenario you are putting out there is good original thinking. It's logical, but it's difficult fitting all the pieces in.

DR has said that Kevin's car is not the one he saw at about the time of the abduction. Under almost any scenario we know that Kevin's car was the last car in the driveway that night, at least until LE arrived. How would you fit the other two cars that DR saw, into your scenario? Why would Kevin drive back there repeatedly, in different vehicles each time? Wouldn't Kevin have to explain the use of various vehicles to his posse that found religion 14 years later?

Nope, not if he wasn't expecting DR to make s up. ;-)

Keep in mind here, that Kevin admits to being the third car in the driveway, and that is after Jacob was taken, after the police went screaming past his house, after Merles 911 call.

It's possible he did this unwittingly in combination with DR (and DR is truthful in this regard). So, agree.

That means he would have had to have taken Jacob on the second pass through DR's driveway, and it also means that second and third pass could only have been a few minutes apart. What would Kevin have done with Jacob while making that third trip, stopping at the Tom Thumb, and stopping at Dr. Cotton's office??

And you just made DR an honest man. Not a problem, but noted. As for what is he doing, definitely transferring "custody" to get an alibi back.

~ svh

 

[Tammy N]

And while we're on the topic of those first few minutes, another curve ball. If you've ever lived on a dirt road, especially with gravel in it, you'll notice that it packs hard where the tires run. It's softer in the middle and on the edges. The tracks they picked up on the driveway were in a soft area, which implies the car was over to the side of the road.

So perhaps the tire tracks that look "fresh" were laid as we're told by Kevin's car. But why was Kevin pulled over?

We might ask, well, any car could have made that track and multiple vehicles could have moved over the packed section. Yes, but even if we accept the parade of cars DR claims came in, there was only one according to DR in that time window (Joy). It was Kevin who said his car came in the driveway at about that time. These stories don't match because if DR could see one car he says was not Kevin's (he was sure about this), then why couldn't he see Kevin's? DR seemed astute about cars coming up his driveway and it actually sounds like it was only one. DR was most likely being deceptive and saw Kevin's car.

So, back to the pull over. One car. Kevin. Why did he pull over? Now, why did DR lie about not seeing Kevin's car when it looks like he actually did. And why was he so conspicuous in that lie to be certain it wasn't Kevin? Is this collusion?

~ svh

Perhaps DR didn't see Kevin's car because supposedly Kevin was in the driveway after a) hearing the call out on the scanner; 2) getting into the vehicle and driving over to the site, which would have put him there in pretty short time after the incident itself, yes? If the scenario was that DR (and/or DR and another individual) brought Jacob up to and into DR's house, he then was not in a position to be looking out windows, etc at that particular time, as he was (theoretically) subduing or hiding, or gods knows what, to Jacob at that time.

 

[KeepHopeAlive]

I apologize that I wasn't completely clear. I got caught up with theories and didn't mean to imply he was actually out running at night as fact. He did, in fact, say he was out running that day. Not sure at all if there was a time alluded to. I am throwing out possible scenarios how it could have happened, is all.

Thanks. I've seen other people suggest it as well, so I was just making sure this is/was just an assumption/theory and that it's not actually documented anywhere.

 

[Caoutchouc]

And while we're on the topic of those first few minutes, another curve ball. If you've ever lived on a dirt road, especially with gravel in it, you'll notice that it packs hard where the tires run. It's softer in the middle and on the edges. The tracks they picked up on the driveway were in a soft area, which implies the car was over to the side of the road.

So perhaps the tire tracks that look "fresh" were laid as we're told by Kevin's car. But why was Kevin pulled over?

We might ask, well, any car could have made that track and multiple vehicles could have moved over the packed section. Yes, but even if we accept the parade of cars DR claims came in, there was only one according to DR in that time window (Joy). It was Kevin who said his car came in the driveway at about that time. These stories don't match because if DR could see one car he says was not Kevin's (he was sure about this), then why couldn't he see Kevin's? DR seemed astute about cars coming up his driveway and it actually sounds like it was only one. DR was most likely being deceptive and saw Kevin's car.

So, back to the pull over. One car. Kevin. Why did he pull over? Now, why did DR lie about not seeing Kevin's car when it looks like he actually did. And why was he so conspicuous in that lie to be certain it wasn't Kevin? Is this collusion?

~ svh

Taking the pull over: a simple explanation was that Kevin saw abandoned the bikes across the road and was observing the scene...wondering if they were stolen, or the result of a hit and run (etc)

I don't understand what you think DR was deceptive about in regard to the cars. Can you clarify a bit?

It is my understanding that DR claimed to have seen 1 car that night, but the question is was that car:
1. sliver/tan in color and large-ish (K+K)
2. dark/blue in color and small-ish (potential perp)
3. some hybrid of the above, with faulty witness account factored in.

What I mean by #3 is that DR truly, honestly believes he saw a small dark car but in fact he saw a large silver car. (All accounts continue to state how dark it was that evening, and while I know there was a light close to DR's house, if he observed the car very quickly, his memory could be at fault.

In my understanding, there could've been 2 cars that night, but DR only saw 1

 

[human]

I would like to go back to something we do know. We doo know DR wants the clippings of Jacob back. why?

Why would DR lie and say his mother did not have black pantyhose when we all saw it in the video?