GUILTY MN - Kira Trevino, 30, St Paul, 22 February 2013

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I dont think it is a Ice Auger, but again maybe it is, the way the officer is carrying it, it seems that part on his left is heavier. The only part that is odd is why would you dump everything in one area if that was the case. Also as I stated before in a post maybe Keller Lake was used to dump the items used in this matter and dump a body else where. Is it possible that the dogs are only picking up a signal from those type of items?

I'll have to go back and make sure, but I thought the items recovered that we saw the picture of were found at a different park - not at the park by Keller Lake.

As for the dogs picking up scents - it depends on which type of dogs they are using. As for the dogs that were used at Keller Lake, it was stated that they are Human Remains Detection (HRD) dogs. These dogs are trained only to alert to the chemicals present after a human being has died. They pick up on the chemical scents emitted from the body which begin very soon after death, and also pick up on blood (in this case there would definitely be a pretty clear scent that the dogs could identify to track precisely).

ETA: My youngest is late from going on a walk, and it's dark now. I'll come back later to check where they found the items wrapped in brown paper, if no-one has addressed that when I get back. TIA! UPDATE: She got back a bit ago, she had called her sister's phone and left a voice-mail and we didn't hear the phone ring. *whew*

ETA II: After again reading the article that I will link below I see that these items were also found in a park near Keller Lake. The amended complaint as reported in this article indicates that the HRD dogs hit on the scent of a "dead body" - since the bag was found near the lake under snow, but not on the lake itself, then it stands to reason that the trail the dogs hit upon and followed across the lake itself would have been the path taken to put K's body in the lake - likely through the hole that they came across that was not drilled by the search divers...

http://www.twincities.com/localnews...trevino-searchers-call-police-over?source=rss

Apologies again if I have caused any confusion. I'm actually getting a bit of a headache right now, so I'm going to take a break from trying to read on the computer... Hopefully that's what it is and not a migraine! :(
 
In studying the Dylan Redwine case, where much attention is right now focused upon Vallecito Lake as a possible site where he may be found, I have learned many things about this subject.

First, regardless of whether or not someone drowns, or if they are deceased upon entering the water, their body will sink (unless any possible air trapped in clothing is enough to retain buoyancy of the body, but that is if the person is wearing clothing that is capable of actually trapping air. A nude body, for instance would sink immediately).

When someone drowns their lungs fill with water, and the body sinks. When someone is already deceased, they have no air in their lungs that would create buoyancy at that point - the lungs deflate (hence what people refer to as the "death rattle"* or "giving up the ghost" that is the sound heard just after a person takes their last breath). So, I'm not sure who told you that air is trapped in the lungs after death, but that would definitely not be accurate.

How long the body will remain under water before surfacing has mostly to do with the temperature of the body of water itself. A body floating to the surface does so because of putrefaction (gases and such that occur as a result of the chemical changes caused by decomposition). When these gases reach a point within the body it then becomes *lighter* than the water, so to speak, and then the body floats up to the surface.

In warm water that may take as little as 3 days. In very cold water, it could take many weeks before decomposition really even sets in due to the temperature slowing down bacterial growth a lot.

Another factor in regard to a body floating would be whether or not the body was weighted down, or whether or not there are trees and branches at the bottom of the body of water in which a body may be stuck on... Either of those things being present would presumably allow even a body in warmer water to stay submerged longer... Won't get into detail on that part as it's rather gory at that point.

Excerpt:


In summary - whether a person is alive and drowns, or a person's body is deposited into a body of water, they will sink to the bottom. A corpse will always maintain a position of head-down lower than the rest of the body at the neck. This is similar to the "dead man's float" taught in swimming classes, although this positioning is also maintained below the surface. If the body is moved along by a current this will be evidenced by post-mortem injuries to the top/front portion of the head as that is what will come into contact with any debris on the bed of the lake, creek, or river...

How long a person's body will remain submerged in the water does not depend on if they drowned, or if they were deceased. The biggest factor is the temperature of the water as it relates to the rate of putrefaction of the body. Cold water can delay this process very significantly (as can be seen by the estimates of bodies floating up in the Thames River at different times of the year, and the fact that oceans and the Great Lakes many times never "give up their dead" due to the extreme cold temperatures found at the bottom).

Thus, it is not a matter of "if" a body will sink or not, but rather how long it will be until said body will rise to the surface and float.

dlink: I'm sure your pathologist friend may have just given you the short quick explanation. Yes, all bodies in water will float, eventually. However, they will not float immediately unless a considerable amount of air is trapped in clothing, and in the absence of trapped air in the clothing they will never float before they have sunk to the bottom and the decomposition process and putrefaction reaches the stage where the gases are of such a volume as to make the body buoyant enough to rise to the surface again.

There is a lot more information on this subject available at the link above - I only excerpted a very small portion at the very end of the document. There is much documented evidence for what is explained in this post.

As always, all of the above is MOO, (unless there is a link cited to back-up my claims)! :cow:

ETA: CORRECTION: * The death rattle isn't actually when the lungs relax and let out all of the air. It's actually the sound of saliva in the throat that occurs shortly before death. My apologies for that mistake. Regardless, immediately after death the muscles completely relax, and any remaining air would be expelled. (I'm looking for a specific link to back this up, though - just for good measure.)

ETA:
dlink - I don't know how to ask this without sounding rude... Are you sure you got your information from a friend who is a pathologist, and not from information in a Yahoo! Answer article that references a mailbag answer on the Straight Dope website which discusses Huckleberry Finn, and if someone hit with a cannon would float in the water???
The reason I as is because I found the exact wording you used in your post here:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006020700794
which referenced -
http://www.straightdope.com/columns...n-cause-a-drowned-body-to-rise-to-the-surface

BBM
Why wouldn't you just link to the information instead of copying it, and then not citing where you got the information from? This is a word-for-word quote, and not information you got from a "pathologist friend", is it? It's not really helpful to forward information not based upon scientific facts. And particularly when the information is word for word from Yahoo! answers and a forum discussing a novel...

@Redhead72
Great Question and a very fair one I must say. The Information that I did receive from my pathologist freind can be found all over the web (as copies). The article in which this information "Originaly " sourced was a study he and others did while attending college at Laboratorio Bioquimica Medica located in Argentina.

http://www.lbm-mg.com/_eng/index.html

I sent him a email with the links you provided, and am waitting for a response.

Also I just did a search on google on the first sentence of the info he provided me based on his best knowledge, and I can't even count how many other sites have the same info;word for word, hence many duplications of this information. Also I dont take offense an/or feel that you are sounding rude when asking your questions I would have also :)
 
Update in regard to the search of the Creek today:

Kira Trevino search continues in creek connected to Keller Lake
Article by: CHAO XIONG , Star Tribune Updated: March 25, 2013 - 5:13 PM
http://www.startribune.com/local/south/199936351.html
Excerpt:
Ramsey County Sheriff’s water patrol deputies found a jacket in the snowy and icy bank of a creek connected to Keller Lake, where the monthlong search for St. Paul resident Kira Trevino has turned up crucial evidence in recent days.

<snip>

Sgt. Paul Paulos, a police spokesman, said about a half-dozen items of interest have been recovered from Keller Regional Park this weekend from both the ground and water, much of it discovered by citizens mobilized on social media. Paulos cautioned that there could be lots of unrelated debris at the park, which is located along two busy roads in Maplewood.

&#8220;We look at each found item separately to see whether they are related to the Trevino case,&#8221; Paulos said.

Deputies found the jacket about a third of the way down the creek, which connects Keller Lake to Round Lake, both located just north of Lake Phalen. Authorities have not said whether any of the items recovered this weekend or Monday are related to the case.

<snip>
Read the entire article at the link above
 
@Redhead72
Great Question and a very fair one I must say. The Information that I did receive from my pathologist freind can be found all over the web (as copies). The article in which this information "Originaly " sourced was a study he and others did while attending college at Laboratorio Bioquimica Medica located in Argentina.

http://www.lbm-mg.com/_eng/index.html

I sent him a email with the links you provided, and am waitting for a response.

Also I just did a search on google on the first sentence of the info he provided me based on his best knowledge, and I can't even count how many other sites have the same info;word for word, hence many duplications of this information. Also I dont take offense an/or feel that you are sounding rude when asking your questions I would have also :)

Interesting, and thank you for your answer and not taking offense to it. I do find it interesting that you reference it being able to be found quoted "all over the web", when the only place I find these exact words via a Google search are 2 separate Yahoo! Answers, the discussion page at Straight Dope, and your post here at WS. I suppose the original study would be in Spanish, and perhaps that's what you meant by it being quoted all over?

Anyway, it would appear that there are differing opinions about this. I have not found any other references though to a person retaining air within the lungs after death - either by drowning, or if the person was deceased before entering the water.

I guess perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree over this point?

ETA: I did another Google search and instead of using the Body position sentence, I used this sentence:
"A person who is killed on the surface and then put in the water tends to float, since the lungs are still full of air"
Here are the links that I found that mention that exact quote in case your friend would like to know who is apparently using his information without credit:
Wiki Answers:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_a_drowned_man_float_on_his_back_or_his_face#page4
An email communication archived at Mad Sci Institute:
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2005-10/1130775058.Gb.r.html

As well as the links I provided earlier.
In all I only got 3 exact hits at Google - 4, if you include your post here at WS.

Anyway, I won't belabor the point any more as it's not exactly relevant to the case at hand. I can imagine your friend would be rather upset that others are using his work without crediting him and his colleagues and the study they did...
 
Interesting, and thank you for your answer and not taking offense to it. I do find it interesting that you reference it being able to be found quoted "all over the web", when the only place I find these exact words via a Google search are 2 separate Yahoo! Answers, the discussion page at Straight Dope, and your post here at WS. I suppose the original study would be in Spanish, and perhaps that's what you meant by it being quoted all over?

Anyway, it would appear that there are differing opinions about this. I have not found any other references though to a person retaining air within the lungs after death - either by drowning, or if the person was deceased before entering the water.

I guess perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree over this point?

I know he said something about a dead body, will sink once the air and gas leaves their body. Sorry if I posted it incorrectly as I am not any in a position to speak scientifically.
 
It amazes me that people don't really listen to what is said on the news. It's like people just hear what they want to, or make up stuff?
 
It amazes me that people don't really listen to what is said on the news. It's like people just hear what they want to, or make up stuff?

I think the problem is more likely the result of poor reporting, and not willful blindness on the part of those reading - at least those reading and participating here...

For instance, one article stated that the bag was found in the lake, and others were reporting near the lake - it was confirmed by Valen who has participated in the search that indeed it was found near the lake, and not in it. It makes a difference as to what the HRD dogs hit on while on the ice, and at the hole. Combine the fact that different articles are reporting different things, and that not everyone has read every article, or seen every local news report, and things can get confusing. This is especially true for someone not familiar with the area at all. (Or, someone like myself who hasn't followed this case closely from "the beginning" and it becomes even harder. When I discovered that K's family attended the church that my daughter's friends attend, it made me a little more interested in understanding what was really going on instead of simply offering up my prayers.)

It's not necessarily that people only hear what they want to hear, or read what they want to read. The "news" here in WI on this case (Kira's hometown), is not very detailed at all which leads to even more confusion, and the need to clarify and double-check.

If there was something specific that someone has a problem with - or if someone has gotten something wrong and not corrected themselves, then why not point it out instead of making a comment like the one I quoted above?

Since I'm one of the *new ones* on the thread that has been trying to get the facts straight on this one, and have been confused and mistaken at times as to whether the witness was driving by, or where the plastic bag was found, or which park the most recent items were found, I am obviously assuming that it was I to whom you are referring to in your comment quoted above.

As I've stated in some of my posts - I apologize if I've caused further confusion. I think I've corrected myself when I've gone back and looked and realized I was wrong. If there was something I missed, then perhaps you would be kind enough to point it out, instead of making a vague comment that carries a bunch of snarky implications, IMHO?

Anyway, to each his/her own I guess...

As always, all of the above is MOO! :cow:
 
LE is pretty sure she is in the lake. Hopefully she is found over the next few days.
 
that's a heart-breaking article

I don't blame Mike for what he is doing. I would also be plugging holes like there is no tomorrow.

In JF case I wounder if he thought he would benifit on pleading Not guilty, and hope that he would be able to get out prior to a trail date. NOT!!!

My god what does he think, someone broke into the house over night and killed her. and he just sleeped through it... How sick
 

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