MO MO - Dennis Spriggs, 47, LaBelle, 15 July 1992

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cofinley, I know that Juanita accused my mother of ciphoning off money from the business, which started the partnership to sour. What did Juanita say about the Roy situation- I don't think I've ever heard you discuss that, and I would love to know. Thank you.

I'll be honest when I hear my mother talking on those tapes that I have not heard for 4.5 years, I start believing her. I don't believe that what she says is TRUE, but she makes me believe that she has no idea what I am talking about. Everything seems to have such simple answers... I am going to cut the part where she talks about why my dad was throwing up in a bit, but I am wondering if anyone can really access these clips. cforgy sent me links of the same clips which we can post from his site if it makes things easier.

Do any of you think that there is room for discussion that she lost her mind somewhere along the way and truly just suffering from a horendous set of circumstances? I shouldn't listen to her talk because it makes me want to believe her so badly.
 
cofinley, I know that Juanita accused my mother of ciphoning off money from the business, which started the partnership to sour. What did Juanita say about the Roy situation- I don't think I've ever heard you discuss that, and I would love to know. Thank you.

I'll be honest when I hear my mother talking on those tapes that I have not heard for 4.5 years, I start believing her. I don't believe that what she says is TRUE, but she makes me believe that she has no idea what I am talking about. Everything seems to have such simple answers... I am going to cut the part where she talks about why my dad was throwing up in a bit, but I am wondering if anyone can really access these clips. cforgy sent me links of the same clips which we can post from his site if it makes things easier.

Do any of you think that there is room for discussion that she lost her mind somewhere along the way and truly just suffering from a horendous set of circumstances? I shouldn't listen to her talk because it makes me want to believe her so badly.
First, yes, I can access the clips with no problem. I just sit with chills when I hear your mom's voice again. As someone else has said recently, her voice is just so cold and distant. When you made the recent post about the hysterectomy, it really made me think in other directions, as well. I just feel that maybe some deep, dark "bad" thing may have happened years ago that she might have tried to block out, and maybe even changed her person, if that makes sense.

Juanita was every description of a "true-blue" friend. If she were your friend, she was your friend for life and would always have your back. I know this because many times she "had my back", so to speak. (One instance of that I will be eternally grateful to her for, but it actually has no relavance to this story.) She was fun, funny, loyal, honest to a fault, an angel God let come to earth,....... I could go on and on.

Juanita was a great artist, in case you might not know. She did beautiful work. I worked for Tom and Roseanne (yes, the TV ones). She was Tom's cousin and that is how I met her. When Tom and Roseanne married, her gift to them was a portrait of a tree that she had drawn that all the lines that made the tree were written "Tom and Roseanne A." It was so unique. (You would have to see it as I cannot really describe in words how it was drawn.)

For my birthday one year, she drew me a print that she called, "Oz". I have it professionally framed here by my desk. It is a rather modern version of what you might think of Oz. It is all straight lined work, I guess is how to describe it. It is all in black and white except the Yellow Bricked Road. Her interpretation was, "everybody should have an Oz". I was going through a lot of life changes at that time. Some good, some not so good. This was just what I needed as it and her explanation fit my life exactly at that time, and still does through all these years. I look at it and think of her everyday. I still miss her and am not ashamed to say once in a while, we "chat". Sometimes I will think, "What would Juanita do?" Enough of that, I'm getting tears on my end. I will just end this paragraph by saying this world will never have enough people like her.

When I first met your mom, I thought she was the sweetest person and so much fun to be around. She was supposedly an old and dear friend of Juanita's and any friend of hers was certainly a friend of mine. As I have previously said, they told me how they had met in the ad industry and had kept in touch for several years each wishing to own their own agency some day. (Juanita had worked for KTVO TV in Ottumwa/Kirksville for years in advertising.)

They got together after Juanita found out that your dad had a heart attack while jogging and was found by the side of the road. Jeanne had told her that Denny had sold insurance for years. She hated paying the premiums for years, but was now thankful, because they left her very "comfortable".

Juanita said to her that maybe this was the time to start an agency together, and they did. Juanita left KTVO and used retirement money (all of it) to get Spriggs-Hootman advertising a good start.

Juanita had never married. I think if she ever had any regret, that may have been it. She told me a few times she wished she had had that in her life and had gotten a chance to be a mother. She was so great with little kids and kids just loved her. She may not have had children of her own, but she "mothered" all of her friends, me included. If she's reading this, "Juanita, you were a great Mom to all your friends!"

Even though never married, Juanita was rich in friends, and had as many male friends, as female. She felt sorry for your mom, as she felt she needed love in her life again, and was always saying that she wished she could find someone for Jeanne.

During this time, your mom told us she would be gone a couple of weeks as she was going back to Utah on personal business. She also told us, in trust, that she was also going to meet a man. It seems that somehow (her story) they had met online. This was '93 or '94, and I don't really remember any "date" or "singles" sites online then.

When she came home, she had coffee mugs for us from Wyoming. (I think I still have mine.) When I asked about the mystery man, her eyes glowed like the devil's! She was so mad telling us the story. She was almost in a rage. I had never seen her mad before.

I guess the man lived in Wyoming, so after she took care of her business in Utah, she had booked a hotel in the town where this man lived. She called him when she checked in, and he was supposed to come and take her out to dinner that evening. She had gotten a new outfit and said she sat at the hotel for hours, hungry, and seething, as he never showed. She called him the next morning to give him her "what for". He was to have said that his teenage son, who lived with him, had a crisis of some sort, and he had to attend to it. Could they reschedule to tonight? Jeanne said she cleaned his clock and told him that his crisis could have given him two minutes to phone that he could not come, instead of leaving hear waiting for a supper date all night. She then checked out and drove home. (This all happened, of course, when she had the Kirksville house.) Now, I wonder if there really was such a man???

Juanita would invite your mom to go many places with her outside of work, hoping to introduce her to someone nice to share time with. One day Juanita ran into Roy, came back to work and said, "Why didn't I ever think of him? They would make such a cute couple!" She then set up a time to introduce them.

They did make a really cute couple. Your mom always was happy and wore a smile on her face. Once she met Roy, it seemed things moved really fast. Their first big date was to the biggest fundraiser that Ottumwa had each year. It was the "Pink Ball" which benefitted Ottumwa Regional Hospital. It was what the city's "elite" attended yearly.

Jeanne bought a slippery, silvery, shiny dress that fit her like a glove. With her grey hair and pretty eyes, she was a knockout in it. Your mom was really someone who needed little to no makeup, she just had this happy glow about her all the time.

Once they attended the ball, in no time they were engaged and Jeanne started planning the wedding. At this point, Juanita was so happy for them and proud of herself for putting them together. Later on, though, she told me how much she regretted ever doing that.

**Time to hope in the shower. I'll continue in a short bit....
 
[/QUOTE] Do any of you think that there is room for discussion that she lost her mind somewhere along the way and truly just suffering from a horendous set of circumstances? I shouldn't listen to her talk because it makes me want to believe her so badly.[/QUOTE]

Lucky, it's my firm belief that no one in their right mind is capable of planning and carrying out actions that will result in someone's death. Self defense is one thing, I guess, but planning someone's death seems to me to require deep-seated feelings that rational people don't have---or a total lack of feelings that rational people do have. I'm no expert, so these are just feelings on my part.
I think there is definitely a possibility that J. has serious emotional/psychological problems that have not been identified yet---and would need in depth examination by experts to have them identified. The more I learn about things she has said and done and things that have happened (like your conversation with her doctor, for example), the more I want to believe that she CAN'T help herself---that something has happened to cause her to do these things and she doesn't even understand it herself. (Please don't misunderstand---I don't want bad things to have happened to her---I just want there to be a reason for all of this---something that can be traced to something and therefore explained.) Unfortunately, we may never be able to find any of that out because it would take her serious cooperation---and she is in such a state of denial that I don't see that happening.
 
I feel the need to put in a reference to Casey Anthony, again, Lucky2.... remember how she had created this entire life around being an "event planner" for Universal and was walking the detectives to her "office" before she FINALLY admitted it was all a lie? She had people believing this lie for over 2 years.... sounds familiar to me!

MOO
 
Back to your Mom's silver dress for the Pink Ball. I think I have previously mentioned that I have her on video tape trying the dress on for all of us when she bought it. She really was gorgeous in it.

After the ball, things moved quickly. Jeanne started moving her things from Kirksville to Roy's house. She put her home up for sale.

Jeanne always presented herself to everyone as a prim and proper Mormom woman. Some things she would never consider outside of marriage. One day before the wedding she made a comment about something she and Roy had been discussing in bed the previous night. It took me by surprise and I said something like, "in bed? You both in bed together, sleeping?"

She immediately got that "firm" voice of hers to tell me to get my mind out of the gutter. That there was only one bed in Roy's house at the time. They stayed on their respective sides, as she told him that there would be no sex until after the marriage ceremony! I didn't tread on that subject again.

At this point, the ad agency was floundering. I would go to your mom's house and bill out, and post incoming payments. I was always paid. But, Juanita wasn't. When she would ask Jeanne, she would reply that no money was coming in yet. I've always been glad that Juanita didn't ever ask me about what went on in Kirksville and if I saw money coming in. It would have put me in the middle and I couldn't have done that.

Jeanne ALWAYS had money to spend. When Juanita would ask, she would tell her that she wasn't getting paid yet, either. The cash she had was from all the insurance that your dad left.

Juanita somehow got them both involved in of all things, a light bulb business. It was to help bring in money until the ad agency started making a profit. They would travel all around the area, selling to companies large amounts of light bulbs to have on hand for their businesses, warehouses, etc. I remember they traveled to Burlington and pitched a contract to the airport there. They also did some sales calls in Des Moines. I don't for the life of me remember the name of the bulb company.

Juanita was by now scraping bottom. She didn't have rent money, she didn't have car payment money, utility money, and so on. She would hang her head (Juanita was very proud) and ask Jeanne for money. Get this. Jeanne would "loan" her money from the ad agency, and have her sign for it as such. I wish I knew where that paperwork went to! That is my answer for you about Juanita saying your mom "ciphoned" money from the business. Juanita did not have access to any of it. Not even the bank account. To even "borrow" from the company she had to ask your mom for it. Many, many times Juanita asked your mom to see the books, but always got an excuse and the books were never produced. Other than your mom, I was the only one who saw both the income and out go. And, I didn't see income that came later in the month. I usually only saw and posted some income when I did billing the first two weeks of each month. Your mom took care of most of the income herself, shall we say?

The ad agency had several accounts in Ottumwa. (Also, Kirksville, Agency and other surrounding small towns.) One of the best accounts was Karl, The Florist. He was a German man who passed the business to his son just before the ad agency started. Like this florist, most of the accounts had long been in Ottumwa, had good records, and paid their bills in a timely fashion. I don't recall having to send out Past Due Bills very many times.

For the record, Juanita did tell me during her cancer battle, that she knew Jeanne had money all that time as the income was going into her pocket only. She also knew that Jeanne had done something to Roy's mind and health. Juanita told me she fully believed Roy when he said he had large amount of money missing and unaccounted for. She went on to say that she didn't know how, but that Jeanne was responsible for Roy's bad health. She regretted not listening more closely to Roy about the health part until it was too late. She said, "As soon as Jeanne could, she shut him up and put him away in a home. She took whatever she could and got out of town as quick as she could." That is the closest to her exact words as I can remember.

There were two other girls working for the ad agency part-time. I'm pretty sure that they, too, were always paid on time. I've mentioned them before, one was named Sue, who pretty much did the same work that I did, along with occasionally baking us one mean chicken for our "community" lunch.

The other, Sheila W., did ad mock ups for their clients on her computer. She and her husband had 3 or 4 very rambunctious little boys and she worked out of her home. Her husband worked at The Ottumwa Courier Newspaper. They moved away a year or so after Juanita passed for better jobs, etc. I believe they went somewhere in Nebraska. She probably knows more of the Roy/Jeanne/Juanita story as she saw and spoke to Juanita frequently up until she passed. They were close and Juanita confided in Sheila a lot. (If you found me, I bet you could find them a lot easier.)

In November 1994, we moved to Columbia, Missouri. My husband at the time, was without a job in Ottumwa. His company had moved all their work to Juarez, Mexico for the "cheap" labor. Columbia had many more job opportunities.

I was invited to Roy & Jeanne's wedding, but was unable to go back right then, as we were house hunting, getting settled, starting my boy in a new school, my hubby was on 3rd shift, holidays were coming, etc. I still have the Christmas card that she sent with their wedding photo. I was very happy for them. I only met Roy a few short times, and he too, always had a smile, was warm and friendly, and looked at Jeanne with those "gaa-gaa" eyes that men use when they are in love.

I do remember wondering who all the people in the wedding photo were. If you remember Lucky2, I didn't know you or some of your siblings existed. Your mom always told me she had two sons. One was away on a Mission Trip. The other lived with her and was still going to school. When the first son came back, then she said the other son would then go on his Mission Trip. All of the times I was at your mom's Kirksville house, I never once saw your brother or any evidence of his existance.

In May of 1995, I was invited back to The Ottumwa Newcomer's Club. They were having a luncheon honoring past presidents of the club, of which I was one. I called Juanita and said to get a hold of Jeanne, Sheila and Sue and see if we could all get together.

She set it up for us to all meet at what was formerly The Greenbriar on Pennsylvania Avenue in Ottumwa for drinks in the mid afternoon. That was the first time I started to hear the really bad stuff.

Juanita said not to count on Jeanne. She told me how bad things were between them. And she told me how bad she felt for her friend, Roy, and she wished she could take back ever introducing them to each other.

She said Jeanne didn't do much lately. She laid around a lot and kept telling everyone she had Lupus. She was supposed to be seeing a doctor regularly, but would not tell Roy or Juanita the doctor's name.

Juanita went on to say that Roy had been calling her and confiding in her. He told Juanita that he was missing large amounts of money. He would question Jeanne, and she would feign Lupus sickness and have to lie down. Roy was really upset over this. Juanita continued on and said that Jeanne was a completely different person than who I had come to know. She was quiet and sullen. No longer friendly.

I found it to be true. Sue, Sheila and Juanita met me at the appointed time that afternoon. No Jeanne. We were having a good time catching up when in came Jeanne, probably about an hour late. She sat with us, yet away from sitting right next to any of us. She was aloof. Sure enough, she started telling me about her Lupus diagnosis and all of her medical problems and that no one seemed to understand. She said word for word, everything that Juanita had told me she would say. She just seemed cold, calculating, the spark was gone out of her eyes. It was not the lady I used to hang with, take to our weekend place and go boating. That lady was gone. That was the last time that I ever saw your mom.

Although Ottumwa was only 3 hours away, it got harder and harder to go back and visit with a ten year old's baseball, Cub Scouts, etc. schedules plus with my hubby's work schedule and later on my work schedule. We stayed in touch with occasional phone calls and then with emails when we got computers and learned to email.

By April of 1997, I found myself a single mom in need of emergency open heart surgery. My folks could not be in Missouri a lot to help with my boy, and persuaded me to move back to my hometime close to all my family.

I would go to Ottumwa 2 or 3 times a year. Whenever I could work around my son's schedule and had the money. I was never able to return to work and have been on Social Security ever since my heart surgery.

It was always hard to fit everyone in during a two day weekend, but I always tried. One weekend, when I ran out of time, I called Juanita to say that I was sorry but I would try to get back real soon so we could get together.

By this time we would email each other about once a week with our latest news, but she never once said she was ill. I've always thought she was so darned thoughtful of everyone, she probably thought I had enough on my plate to deal with. I can still quote her exact words as they still ring in my ears. She replied, "Well, it better be pretty soon because I'm dying.".

I almost laughed out loud. Always the kidder. Dying to see me, dying of boredom and wants to have some fun? Her next words cut through me and a little piece is still missing where that knife went in. "I have breast cancer. They couldn't stop it. It looks like it is spreading." I cannot even remember the rest of the conversation, I just know I cried the entire three hour ride back home.

**I'd like to finish this, but hubby is calling to go. I will finish this shortly :)
 
cofinley- thank you so much for all of your work to write this down. I feel like I just sat down with Juanita and got her story that I have been wanting to hear for so long. Some of what you had to say really made me think back to how all of these somatic symptoms with her began, and then faking diagnosis, and onto pretending other people had certain illnesses, and I wonder if it moved into causing other people to be ill. When did Juanita say that Roy noticed he was missing money? I know she started telling people she had various illnesses, even a brain tumor at one point, (right cforgy?) and it happened that Christmas before Roy "went crazy." She was shaking so hard, even her voice shaking when she tried to talk. She was sleeping 22 hours a day. I am wondering if the world was crashing in on her at that time. Roy told me that she would tell him she would be certain places, and when he would go in to see her, or try to find her, she wouldn't be anywhere to be found. She told me that she was not feeling well so she would go home and sleep, and was too embarassed to tell Roy. Some of this sounds like heavy depression, and some of it sounds like the early seeds of munchausen by proxy. If I had a buck for everytime she told people that her oldest daughter had Lupus, I would be happy. She truly needed me to be sick- and I just don't understand it.

cforgy, I wonder if that check you found for 30,000.00 to the Chamber of Commerce really bore Roy's signature? That would be interesting... I can't say much about the F.'s case except to say some similar things happened with their dad and money.
 
Once I got home from Ottumwa that day and had time to compose myself, something came to mind. I kept thinking what a good friend Juanita was, how many ways she affected my life in such a positive way, and just what a downright good person she was. I decided that she needed to know and that I needed to tell her.

We began daily emails after that. Still only occasional calls as I couldn't afford long distance or a cell phone. Usually illness was seldom mentioned. As I wrote each note back, I would think that "I need to tell Juanita" about how much she meant to me. And I always told myself, "next time". I think that my mind was thinking as long as I said "next time", there in fact, always would be a next time. However, I procrastinated, and next time didn't come.

She would always send her daily emails to me before 9 AM. She was always the early riser, I was always the late one up. One morning by 10, nothing had come. I sent a short "what are you up to?" and waited. No reply. In my heart I knew.

I called Sheila W. and told her that I hadn't gotten an email nor an answer that morning. I had also tried to phone, but no answer. Would she please check and see if maybe Juanita had to go into the hospital? But........I knew. I felt it.

Within an hour or two, Sheila called and told me that Juanita had passed over nite. I never did get the courage to tell her what a good friend she was.

I was blessed to have several close girlfriends in my nine year stay in Ottumwa. A year or two later, another Ottumwa friend called. She told me not to get excited, to sit down and listen. Another friend, had a very bad rollover accident near Oskaloosa. They flew her to Des Moines. She had extensive head trauma, many serious injuries and was not expected to live.

This friend, M., and I had been as close as sisters. She was the sister that I never had. Her 2 girls and 2 boys had all babysat my son. We worked together and we played together. I learned many, many things from her that I still put to use in my daily life. But, I hadn't ever told her. And, now.......

For a long time the family said no visitors in the hospital. Her brain injury was not letting her know people and such. But, as soon as she was home and had a family okay, I made that trip to Ottumwa. I spent just a few minutes talking to M., who was still recovering. I told her in the best way I knew, how much both she and her family meant to me, what a good friend and confidant she had always been, and all of the things I had learned from her that I carried into my daily life now.

I am happy to say this had a much happier ending. M. is fully recovered, and a very successful businesswoman. Her boys are married and have families of their own now. Three years ago I was priviledged to attend one of her daughters wedding and have been watching her little toddler grow up on facebook. The other daughter married a year ago, and just found out they have a "special little package" coming. Both girls, like their mother are loving, giving and caring and also are successful businesswomen.

I just wanted to close this by saying to all the good people who keep up on this page, not to take their loved ones for granted. There may not be a tomorrow. I didn't tell Juanita, but I won't let that happen again. Always let the ones close to you know how appreciated they are while you have the chance.

Lucky2, I hope this has helped answer some more questions. Let me know if I can help in any way. You are in my daily prayers.
 
Do any of you think that there is room for discussion that she lost her mind somewhere along the way and truly just suffering from a horendous set of circumstances? I shouldn't listen to her talk because it makes me want to believe her so badly.[/QUOTE]

Lucky, it's my firm belief that no one in their right mind is capable of planning and carrying out actions that will result in someone's death. Self defense is one thing, I guess, but planning someone's death seems to me to require deep-seated feelings that rational people don't have---or a total lack of feelings that rational people do have. I'm no expert, so these are just feelings on my part.
I think there is definitely a possibility that J. has serious emotional/psychological problems that have not been identified yet---and would need in depth examination by experts to have them identified. The more I learn about things she has said and done and things that have happened (like your conversation with her doctor, for example), the more I want to believe that she CAN'T help herself---that something has happened to cause her to do these things and she doesn't even understand it herself. (Please don't misunderstand---I don't want bad things to have happened to her---I just want there to be a reason for all of this---something that can be traced to something and therefore explained.) Unfortunately, we may never be able to find any of that out because it would take her serious cooperation---and she is in such a state of denial that I don't see that happening.[/QUOTE]

I have to acknowledge the few of you who have been promoting the possibility of things that happened in her life that could have changed who she was. I have not known how to pursue that thread of conversation any further than we did without going down a path that would bring in discussing people that are no longer here to defend themselves. She definately alluded to me a few things here or there over the years... and I would not be suprised. Maybe just like 'it takes a village to raise a child', we could say that it takes a village of sorts to create this kind of tragedy as well. Perhaps she is the one that acted out the most, but it is hard to judge anyone when such vile things happen in this world that we can't understand.
 
I feel the need to put in a reference to Casey Anthony, again, Lucky2.... remember how she had created this entire life around being an "event planner" for Universal and was walking the detectives to her "office" before she FINALLY admitted it was all a lie? She had people believing this lie for over 2 years.... sounds familiar to me!

MOO

This is the key to everything in this case to me at least, is if she is knowingly lying, or really doesn't know what she is talking about. If she doesn't know what she is talking about, then it would seem that if she's lost her sanity in some way, then scooping crap into salt could just be simply odd, and not criminal. I can't maneuver all of the stories and events and money, health, death issues without seeing some purposeful behavior. I think that the scariest thing for me is if it is all purposeful, because it is deeply disturbing to consider anyone capable of contemplating and carrying through the many things in question here. I doubt my mind could ever accept that entirely of her because she is my mother. I still run and hide to my safe psychological spot at times and check every nook and cranny for innocence.
 
cofinley- thank you so much for all of your work to write this down. I feel like I just sat down with Juanita and got her story that I have been wanting to hear for so long. Some of what you had to say really made me think back to how all of these somatic symptoms with her began, and then faking diagnosis, and onto pretending other people had certain illnesses, and I wonder if it moved into causing other people to be ill. When did Juanita say that Roy noticed he was missing money? I know she started telling people she had various illnesses, even a brain tumor at one point, (right cforgy?) and it happened that Christmas before Roy "went crazy." She was shaking so hard, even her voice shaking when she tried to talk. She was sleeping 22 hours a day. I am wondering if the world was crashing in on her at that time. Roy told me that she would tell him she would be certain places, and when he would go in to see her, or try to find her, she wouldn't be anywhere to be found. She told me that she was not feeling well so she would go home and sleep, and was too embarassed to tell Roy. Some of this sounds like heavy depression, and some of it sounds like the early seeds of munchausen by proxy. If I had a buck for everytime she told people that her oldest daughter had Lupus, I would be happy. She truly needed me to be sick- and I just don't understand it.

cforgy, I wonder if that check you found for 30,000.00 to the Chamber of Commerce really bore Roy's signature? That would be interesting... I can't say much about the F.'s case except to say some similar things happened with their dad and money.
If I recall, Roy and Jeanne were married in either Nov. or Dec. of 1994. When I called Juanita to set us all up to get together at The Greenbriar the following May of 1995, is when Juanita first mentioned these things. That phone conversation before I came up there was when she told me Roy had been calling her telling her about large sums of money missing. That was also when she told me that the ad agency was as good as done, due to Jeanne. She also told me at that time how she regretted introducing Roy and Jeanne, and she hoped Roy would forgive her. At that same conversation is when she told me all about Jeanne claiming to be under doctor's care and being diagnosed with Lupus. Juanita said in certainty, that Jeanne was faking and she only had Lupus when it was convenient to her. So, I would say that Roy and Jeanne had only been married, say maybe six months or so, the first time Juanita told these things to me.

As I just read your post, I was thinking "serious depression" before I got to the part that you said that it sounded like depression to you. My boy is diagnosed manic depressive, so I have learned a little about depression over the years. Munchausen by proxy, maybe. She definately wanted all the attention, but in a good way, not a bad way. But, I really agree with others on here that there is some deep (undiagnosed) mental problems here. This definately is not a well balanced person.
 
This is the key to everything in this case to me at least, is if she is knowingly lying, or really doesn't know what she is talking about. If she doesn't know what she is talking about, then it would seem that if she's lost her sanity in some way, then scooping crap into salt could just be simply odd, and not criminal. I can't maneuver all of the stories and events and money, health, death issues without seeing some purposeful behavior. I think that the scariest thing for me is if it is all purposeful, because it is deeply disturbing to consider anyone capable of contemplating and carrying through the many things in question here. I doubt my mind could ever accept that entirely of her because she is my mother. I still run and hide to my safe psychological spot at times and check every nook and cranny for innocence.

While I definitely think there is some mental illness involved, I also feel that her behavior has been too purposeful for her to be completely unhinged and unaware of what she is doing. The salt shaker phone call alone leads me to believe that she knows exactly what she is doing. Why else would she feel the need to call you back and come up with a cover story over a salt shaker? As they say 'Crazy like a fox.' I haven't listened to all the tapes yet, but that is my take from the one tape and the things I have read on here. This is a woman on a mission. And she has carried out each mission as necessary for whatever her needs were at the time. There is clearly narcisstic behavior here, but I don't see insanity. I also don't see Munchausen by Proxy as that usually only involves small children and children only, I believe. Does anybody know if Munchausen can include adults? I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean it can't be. I will have to check into that.
 
cforgy, I wonder if that check you found for 30,000.00 to the Chamber of Commerce really bore Roy's signature? That would be interesting... I can't say much about the F.'s case except to say some similar things happened with their dad and money.

I never found that check, I only know Dad told someone in the family he wrote it, and they saw it at some point.
 
While I definitely think there is some mental illness involved, I also feel that her behavior has been too purposeful for her to be completely unhinged and unaware of what she is doing. The salt shaker phone call alone leads me to believe that she knows exactly what she is doing.

Agreed.
 
If I recall, Roy and Jeanne were married in either Nov. or Dec. of 1994. When I called Juanita to set us all up to get together at The Greenbriar the following May of 1995, is when Juanita first mentioned these things. That phone conversation before I came up there was when she told me Roy had been calling her telling her about large sums of money missing, and almost immediately when the marriage began. That was also when she told me that the ad agency was as good as done, due to Jeanne. She also told me at that time how she regretted introducing Roy and Jeanne, and she hoped Roy would forgive her. At that same conversation is when she told me all about Jeanne claiming to be under doctor's care and being diagnosed with Lupus. Juanita said in certainty, that Jeanne was faking and she only had Lupus when it was convenient to her. So, I would say that Roy and Jeanne had only been married, say maybe six months or so, the first time Juanita told these things to me.

As I just read your post, I was thinking "serious depression" before I got to the part that you said that it sounded like depression to you. My boy is diagnosed manic depressive, so I have learned a little about depression over the years. Munchausen by proxy, maybe. She definately wanted all the attention, but in a good way, not a bad way. But, I really agree with others on here that there is some deep (undiagnosed) mental problems here. This definately is not a well balanced person.

From what I knew of Juanita, (she and my mom were friends for a very long time before this) then she was not a flighty person, and definately would stick with a friend through anything as you mentioned. The fact that she abandoned this friendship is pretty significant, and I always wondered the details- and thank you so much for telling the story. I find it fascinating that she refused to give the doctors name to Juanita or Roy- and also that Roy was missing money, and so soon into the marriage. I never knew that part, but it makes a lot of sense since even as children we would be missing money. If you'd take from your own kids then why not a husband? I also find that interesting since my grandpa used to tell my dad that my mom was taking money from him. I have definately met both of those people that you described as my mother, the bright-eyed ready to take on anything, and the sullen depressed retreated one. Thank you again for taking the time to tell the story. My best always.
 
While I definitely think there is some mental illness involved, I also feel that her behavior has been too purposeful for her to be completely unhinged and unaware of what she is doing. The salt shaker phone call alone leads me to believe that she knows exactly what she is doing. Why else would she feel the need to call you back and come up with a cover story over a salt shaker? As they say 'Crazy like a fox.' I haven't listened to all the tapes yet, but that is my take from the one tape and the things I have read on here. This is a woman on a mission. And she has carried out each mission as necessary for whatever her needs were at the time. There is clearly narcisstic behavior here, but I don't see insanity. I also don't see Munchausen by Proxy as that usually only involves small children and children only, I believe. Does anybody know if Munchausen can include adults? I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean it can't be. I will have to check into that.

How do you think she can sound so completely off-guard and suprised without any hint of recognition when I brought up the salt shakers. If you listen to that little clip I put up, she truly sounds like she knows nothing. What would be your opinion on that? Perhaps we'll never dissect this personality, and frankly I think several people are holding a few cards to finishing the puzzle. (me included) It's hard to know if something is just gossip, private, or essential to getting this figured out completely.
 
How do you think she can sound so completely off-guard and suprised without any hint of recognition when I brought up the salt shakers. If you listen to that little clip I put up, she truly sounds like she knows nothing. What would be your opinion on that? Perhaps we'll never dissect this personality, and frankly I think several people are holding a few cards to finishing the puzzle. (me included) It's hard to know if something is just gossip, private, or essential to getting this figured out completely.

I personally think she has a personality disorder. They make incredibly good liars, to be frank, and can put up any facade they wish. It could also be her surprise that you picked up on the significance of the salt shakers. She could have been completely floored that you had the nerve to question her about it.
 
My personal opinion is that your Aunt has likely fallen into the category of being in denial because to face the reality of the situation would be far more painful than she wants to deal with. It's probably easier to pretend that there is much ado about nothing than it is to face the possibility that your sister-in-law killed her brother. It probably sounds as far-fetched as an alien kidnapping someone & taking them to Mars. I seriously doubt if a fictional story could be made up to match a lot of the details in this true story. And while I would have to say that believing someone in your family was capable of murder is a very hard pill to swallow, trying to kid yourself into believing something other than what seems to be obvious (to your own mind & to others) would also gnaw at your conscience over time. People often talk about that "little voice" in your head that tries to lead you in the right direction in life. I think this is what we're talking about here. That "little voice" in my mind often told me things that I didn't want to believe during my early adult years and even in later years when it came to relationships in general. I'm slowly learning to believe my "gut" instinct as I'm finding I'm seldom ever wrong if I listen to it now. I wish I had learned that back when I was in my 20's. :0
 
I personally think she has a personality disorder. They make incredibly good liars, to be frank, and can put up any facade they wish. It could also be her surprise that you picked up on the significance of the salt shakers. She could have been completely floored that you had the nerve to question her about it.

Someone mentioned narcissm or being the center of attention, and it made me go back to one time that I saw that in full action that was very detrimental to me personally. I had been assaulted on campus by a stranger, (but gotten away) and the charges were kidnapping and second degree felony assault I think. Anyway, it was very scary, and I did get away before anything serious happened. The police promised to let me know when he got out of prison so that I could leave town. He was getting out soon about a year and a half later, and I decided to take my last semester of classes with me to do homestudy so I went home to Missouri. I was having my bridal shower at my mom's house, and I walked into the main room where my mom had about 8 women huddled around her and she quickly was trying to change the topic, and there were "shhhh's" and uncomfortable looks from people. I asked her what was going on, and she tried to get out of it, but I pushed, and she admitted to me that she was very concerned about the man who had assaulted me because she heard on the radio that he had violated his parole and was about an hour from Kirksville where he stopped and raped a 90 year old woman, and got picked up. She said she feared he was stalking me again and was on his way out with me as his intended victim.

I called the police and no matter what detective I talked to they said that they had no record of him doing any such thing. They reminded me how dangerous he could be however, and they would keep their promise to let me know when he was released. I was so blind at that time that I believed my mother and her horrible story, and thought the police were just confused!!! Now that I know how she weaves things, it made me look back on how I ended up in a hide-a-way house after the attack as well. She told me that it was important to get to me a safe place, and the police were out of locations, so she and my dad had me go with their friends' friends down in Utah where I lived for about 2 weeks while finishing my semester. I was so frightened the entire time, and I didn't know why I was going to the hide-a-way house except that I was told it was for my own safety and he was stalking me. A few years later my mom told me that the police had picked up this guy a block from my parents house in Idaho (before my dad died they lived there... in fact he died about 2 weeks after this incident.) She said that he had stalked me from Utah to Idaho, and had about 15 fake ID's and the police let my parents know they had caught him and were putting him in prison. It was terrifying- and now- I wonder how it could even be true. If the police caught him a block from my parents house, then why would I need to rush to a hide-a-way house right after, because he was already in prison.

Anyway, the point is that the story got her lots of attention from many people, and I had some major anxiety during some of this because it was so scary. I now see it was all just fabricated.. and truly.. unkind, to put your own daughter through for a little attention from people.
 
My personal opinion is that your Aunt has likely fallen into the category of being in denial because to face the reality of the situation would be far more painful than she wants to deal with. It's probably easier to pretend that there is much ado about nothing than it is to face the possibility that your sister-in-law killed her brother. It probably sounds as far-fetched as an alien kidnapping someone & taking them to Mars. I seriously doubt if a fictional story could be made up to match a lot of the details in this true story. And while I would have to say that believing someone in your family was capable of murder is a very hard pill to swallow, trying to kid yourself into believing something other than what seems to be obvious (to your own mind & to others) would also gnaw at your conscience over time. People often talk about that "little voice" in your head that tries to lead you in the right direction in life. I think this is what we're talking about here. That "little voice" in my mind often told me things that I didn't want to believe during my early adult years and even in later years when it came to relationships in general. I'm slowly learning to believe my "gut" instinct as I'm finding I'm seldom ever wrong if I listen to it now. I wish I had learned that back when I was in my 20's. :0

My "Gut" was on full alert when my dad died. I have managed to set aside all of my "gut alerts" for almost 2 decades on all of this with the quick words to myself, "OH MY GOSH, who would think that, you must be losing your mind." I learned how to quickly sweep those thoughts out of my head, almost like I was battling some type of impending paranoia heading my way. When Roy called me and said he'd been poisoned, I swept it out of my head again, but not without a glance or two at the situation. That made me feel guilt again that I would even consider entertaining the idea. Thoughts were coming more frequently and stronger over the years she was married to Bruce, until finally I thought.. wait. These feelings I am having are so strong- the same types of feelings that I have always been taught that exist when we want to know the truth of something from God. That clear honest look at something that you can't deny. When those feelings were overwhelming me I decided that maybe God didn't exist, (just briefly-) because if I got those feelings so strongly about my own mother, then I must be insane, and that my feelings of God, and the afterlife, and answers to prayer were fake also. I mean, if I can pray and get answers of clarity that my mother is killing people, then prayer must be fake! It messed with my entire belief system and trust in myself. I still fight it at times, but I do believe that psychology and religion touch at various points in theory, and somewhere out there where they touch, this makes sense in a psychological way why I would want to push these thoughts and feelings away, and how she's capable of doing these things. When I look at it from a religious stand point based on feelings, I see how real my feelings are, and how such horrendous thoughts are actually leading me towards peace and out of chaos. Peace is the sign we are doing the right thing, right? It's such a mixed bag to feel the peace in your heart and the chaos in your mind until you walk far enough away from the situation to sit and have a good long look at it. So- yes- I understand gnawing feelings as you've explained it, and also the gnawing feelings even when you are on the right and true path. It never feels good to leave people you love behind.
 

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