MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #3

[lawlady84]

The friends' myspaces were set as "Folks, Washington" - so it was a Twilight thing. Thanks for clearing that up lillyanne.

 

[Prof]

"Rumors" means information that's "out there" that hasn't been confirmed by LE and/or family members. It does not mean made up stories, stories blown out of proportion, or stories twisted to make a point.

Tricia, owner of the forum posted the above here:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I am just making sure that I am clear on what I can and cannot post, too.

Patty has provided Tricia's definition of a WS rumor posted to a "Rumor" forum.

A rumor forum in my reading would allow gossip or discussion of what is "out there" (or rumored in mutiple places), but that information has no clear or immediately credible source. For example, Everyone is saying that the suspect in custody wanted to know what it is like to watch someone die, but we don't know where that information comes from, so it is a rumor that belongs in a rumor forum. Rumors are allowed in a "rumor" forum, but those rumors must be based on information "out there" in Rumorville, such as comments made by locals in local media. The second part of the statement, I read as a warning that the WS post should not start new rumors.


However, I am still confused about how the above statement applies to this forum. For example, LE has not confirmed the address or name of the killer, nor has any family member, yet our astute WS members sleuthed the address, and name of the killer by property records, and court records.
I take it as an acceptable discussion in this forum, (though not confirmed by LE or family) because it is information that can be substantiated and traced back to credible sources (although may not to LE or family). Is this correct?

 

[Kimster]

PROF! Thank you! Even tho I was searching, I missed that post! I'm slow today!

ETA: According to the post that I linked to from JBean (not referring to this thread) it appears that some topics are allowed different guidelines than others. I am guessing that Admin is trying to decide that for us now.

 

[Lunar1121]

I have been lurking for ages and only posted once on this thread ... First, I want to send my regards to lillyanne. It isn't only Elizabeth's friends and family that are hurting but the friends and family of AB who have "lost" a friend in her too. I am so sorry for that! Second, using the word "franchise" at the sophmore level is not "too smart". Whoever said that is just dumbing all our students down by acting like that is such a hard word for them to comprehend! Lastly, there is a lot of talk about goth, emo, and scene going on which is fine but IMO that has no bearing on a person's choice to act in a certain manner in which they know is wrong. So, talk all you want about it, as there isn't much else to talk about until we get more details, but a person with blue hair black nails cateye contacts and so on (obviously being overdramatic here) can make good decisions just the same as someone who is wearing a catholic school girl uniform and prays to Jesus every night ... ya get?!!?

GREAT SLEUTHING THOUGH PEOPLE, TRULY AND HONESTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kateyes]

Mycroft - I am not sure I am familiar with the Grant case. When was it, and did it also involve a young killer who was released and then killed again? Thanks in advance for your reply.

 

[Kimster]

I have been lurking for ages and only posted once on this thread ... First, I want to send my regards to lillyanne. It isn't only Elizabeth's friends and family that are hurting but the friends and family of AB who have "lost" a friend in her too. I am so sorry for that! Second, using the word "franchise" at the sophmore level is not "too smart". Whoever said that is just dumbing all our students down by acting like that is such a hard word for them to comprehend! Lastly, there is a lot of talk about goth, emo, and scene going on which is fine but IMO that has no bearing on a person's choice to act in a certain manner in which they know is wrong. So, talk all you want about it, as there isn't much else to talk about until we get more details, but a person with blue hair black nails cateye contacts and so on (obviously being overdramatic here) can make good decisions just the same as someone who is wearing a catholic school girl uniform and prays to Jesus every night ... ya get?!!?

GREAT SLEUTHING THOUGH PEOPLE, TRULY AND HONESTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes yes...I think I know what you are saying. This girl would have still had her problems within her if the goth or emo lifestyles hadn't been created. These are just outlets for these kinds of kids, is what I'm trying to say.

However, if the dark side of these lifestyles weren't cool, would a child be less apt to commit a horrible act because it wasn't acceptable to their peers? I think that is the question.

 

[jokie7348]

Yes...I know what you mean. Didn't the perps in the Columbine killings also relate to the goth lifestyle? I know a lot of the kids are dressing like this just to be cool, but some of them are taking it to the extreme..and the extreme of this is pure evil.

My experience with teens is that they can take on a variety of "personas" with little ill effect, and outgrow them in time.
Unfortunately, a teen who already has problems, psychological issues, past abuse, etc., cannot take on a violent persona without acting it out. I think this is what has happened with AB. JMO

 

[MBLover]

I'm sorry, but I have to put my 2 cents in here...

Dressing Goth - Emo or anything else has nothing to do with this.

Just because one dresses a certain way doesn't make them the "bad guy" (or girl) - It's what's in that person's own personal make-up that causes them to do certain things.

The bad thing - styles of dress or the way one wears their hair is being perpetuated (not saying on here - but everywhere) with bad connotations.

Cops wear uniforms and we've been taught all our lives that we can trust a cop - that they are the "good people"... Well guess what...they aren't all good. Same with Ministers, Teachers, people who profess to be of various religious faiths, Firefighters, etc., etc., etc.

Too often times we let appearances (whether it be good or bad) determine what we are going to believe about a person - and too often times we're wrong to think what we do.

Obviously all people who dress in an alternative manner aren't bad...most cops who put on a uniform aren't bad - but within those groups, unfortunately there are some who are - but we can't hold everyone accountable in those groups for the "rotten apples"...

Obviously if AB did this (and it appears she did), she has a great many mental issues - and who wouldn't in her situation. I'm not trying to excuse her in any way... I just am saying to look at it from the perspective of her as the person - not the dress.

 

[gxm]

I lived in Orlando for over 21 years. There was a woman found strangled in her garage sometime between 20005 and 2008, and I am going to try to find the articles and link them. The perp was the woman's nephew, who was married and living with his wife somewhere in southwest florida. After the perp was arrested it was learned that he had killed a parent (or step-parent, cannot remember) in a very violent manner when he was only 12. He was charged under the juvenile system, and so got out of confinement when he was no longer a minor. I believe he may have even changed his name, or assumed a new one. Even his wife had no idea about his former murder. The point is, IMOO, is that a child who commits cold-blooded murder at such a young age is not likely to be able to be rehabilitated. Unfortunately, many of these people appear to have changed their ways, and the first clue that the person could murder again is when the victim is found. I am going to look for the links to this story. It is pertinent to Elizabeth's Olten's murder because of the circumstances.

I think that with child murderers it can go either way. Some kids will never grow out of it. They were born evil. And then there are other children who can be rehabilitated. Not all, but some. The hard part is figuring out who can be saved.

Right now I'm leaning to the opinion that Elizabeth's killer can not be saved. Just the few facts we know lead me to believe it was a cold-blooded, calculated murder. JMO of course.

 

[fireflyofhope]

totallyavalleygirl

there is a short blog she wrote to AB

 

[gxm]

Condolences to Lillyanne. My heart goes out to you and your community.

And thank you for dropping by to share your perspective.

 

[Kimster]

there is a short blog she wrote to AB

LE needs to see this, IMO!

ETA: And I think they have, so please don't think I suggest this be sent in.

Also, I don't think we are supposed to refer to MS. Let's delete these posts, k?

 

[gxm]

When I saw AB's photo on Twitter I was taken aback. IMO she looks like a normal, pretty teenage girl. I can't reconcile her photo to the horrific act she (may have) committed.

 

[Kimster]

I see everyone's point about the way people dress. My 18 yo just went to his college classes today dressed "emo" and he's a goal-oriented kid with two difficult majors in a well-known university.

I'm not talking about clothes...I'm talking about lifestyle. I'm talking about people who think evil is cool.

 

[fireflyofhope]

LE needs to see this, IMO!

ITA... but I bet they already have

 

[winterrose]

True Lunar,but you dress according to the lifestyle you want to live and 9 times out of 10 there are things going on in the background you wouldn't know.Someone I know has a child that was emo,always a beautiful sweet happy child,who was going through a "fad".The mother said her daughter was putting scratches on her arms like the "emo thing".I told her it was more to this emo/goth thing,but she said she's just going through a teen thing till one night she cut her wrists and almost died.I don't take this new twilight emo/goth mix garbage lightly.They are kids and you never know what becomes real to them and no longer just a teen fad.If what they follow involves murder,vampires,death,it's a dark world that parents should take seriously if they see changes in thier children.Her mother also went through that goth,black dyed hair,nails and dress and why she said she'd grow out of it,this is not the world we were teens in,it's very different.

 

[mydailyopinions]

Lillyanne,
Welcome to Websleuths..
I am truly sorry for all the pain your community is feeling..
I have only one thing to request..
Please don't hide you being here from your parents.
Its okay to talk about things, but make sure you don't make anything up that can be cause for anyone to think you are trying to inject yourself into this horrible situation..People can be vicious as we all know here, and the last thing we need is another child being hurt for no good reason!
Prayers going out to you, your friends, your school and community!

 

[danni]

However, if the dark side of these lifestyles weren't cool, would a child be less apt to commit a horrible act because it wasn't acceptable to their peers? I think that is the question.

Ted Bundy was a dear friend of Ann Rule, ("The Stranger Beside Me") she had no clue he was going around killing people. Was he doing it because his friends thought it was cool. NO he was doing it for the thrill of killing, because he was a SERIAL KILLER! Ann worked for/with the police in Seattle Police Department and even when the word was getting around that Ted was the killer she did not believe it. Even when he ws locked up for all the murders she still didn't believe it.

This was a VERY well educated woman who had studied MANY of these cases in the past. So the fact that some of these 15 and 16 year olds don't see HOW their friend could do this, does NOT suprise me.

My opinion if someone is going to kill they are going to do it no matter what they look like, or what their friends think of it!

 

[mydailyopinions]

I see everyone's point about the way people dress. My 18 yo just went to his college classes today dressed "emo" and he's a goal-oriented kid with two difficult majors in a well-known university.

I'm not talking about clothes...I'm talking about lifestyle. I'm talking about people who think evil is cool.

Clothes don't define a person..
Our last 2 Valedictorians of our local high school dressed emo...
just saying.....

 

[Kimster]

ITA... but I bet they already have

GMTA! :highfive:

Welcome to Websleuths, too!!!