MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #21

[Frydaddy]

I will post more as I come across more. I have been to the scene of MB's death, and have joined the protesters on more than one occasion. I've stayed out of here because I do believe this is a racial situation, and I understand that's not openly discussed here. As a local, racial tensions have been brewing in the St. Louis metro area for decades. This incident caused the explosion, but it's always been part of the day-to-day dynamic here. I won't discuss my personal views on the matter, but will do my best to provide a factual boots-on-the-ground account of what is happening.

BBM - A great start would be to define why...on both sides.

 

[katydid23]

Okay, now we need to really look at this picture. The man is clearly taller than I am and I just went out and check my car and I had to bend over to get into a position where my mirror would have hit me in the back portion of the upper arm and that is not while standing on a sidewalk. We know, by the video posted earlier, that it appears he was leaning over in front of the vehicle which looks as if he is trying to get another photo of the man's license. Again, why. There were 5 or 6 people taking pictures of the man's license plate all yelling I got it, I got it before Mustafa was even struck by the mirror. Why were so many people taking a picture of this poor man's marker number while they surrounded him and long before anyone was hit?

According to twitter, lol, this is their version of events. [ I linked the tweets way upstream somewhere]:

after the protestors surrounded the car, the driver 'ran over' Backpack guys foot. [allegedly] At that point, they all yelled, and thats when Mustafa ran fast across the street and began filming the license plate etc...and they said ' let him go, we have video' and then the poor driver exited fast, and MIGHT HAVE brushed past Mustafa and grazed him with the mirror...

 

[katydid23]

I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out why in the hell we're making a bigger deal of it than the council members. Doesn't mean I think they've used the best or most appropriate means or methods, but it sure seems we are more worked up about it here than they are.

You don't think Stenger was 'worked up' about being threatened by the crowd, given an ultimatum, to denounce RM by noon OR ELSE?

 

[K_Z]

I often ask the young people I work with: "How many old drug dealers do you know?" The answer is none. There's a reason for that. These young men have been brainwashed into believing that their lives mean nothing. Unfortunately, many of their own families perpetuate this- we all know the stats of the single mother homes. No one seems to care about these kids, so they bind together, look to each other, and THINK they're replacing the family they never had with each other. What they're doing is holding each other back, and writing their own tickets to prison and death. A young man said yesterday at the town hall- and he was dead serious, and full of emotion- "I would rather die and go to hell than call 911 if there was an emergency at my home." Just think about that for a minute. What in the world happened to make him feel that way? Unfortunately, this is a multi-generational problem, and an entire subset of our community lives an existence that lacks hope. WE know there's a better way. They see doctors and lawyers all around them, but they don't believe that option is open to them. My goal isn't to pick sides or race bait. My goal is to teach them that they can be better, can do better. I don't know how else to do that without also hearing them out. I'm not preaching at them, I'm working with them.

I'm very glad there are passionate people like you trying to make a difference for these young people. It's important work-- rather like a missionary, I suppose. What I'm absolutely sure of is that continuing to live in a place like Canfield Green, a young person has no chance at all. None. To have any chance at a better life, and being treated "better", they have to leave, escape that lifestyle, and totally reject that culture. Kind of like entering the witness protection program. Because the problems of poverty there are SO enormous and multigenerational, they can't be fixed for decades, if ever.

I hope you can encourage a few of the bright and motivated kids to make efforts to get out. It isn't a matter of who is voted in or out for the young adults. The community will go on without them. But if they get out, they have a chance, which is all any of us get in this country. A chance. Tell them to make plans to get out. That's what I'd do if I were counseling youths. IMO.

BTW-- military service is not a bad option for getting out. Most of the time, it's much safer than places like Ferguson, and they pay and benefits are good-- better than they can get in Ferguson. Better housing, job training, etc. The military is a really great option to break the cycle, IMO. I've seen it save more than a few young kids.

 

[CMac2]

But don't a lot of those problems, like feeling one is not heard, and not worthy, START AT HOME? Just looking at Michaels childhood, and Dorians childhood, point out some real problems. And I don't think they can blame the establishment or white power structure for those problems. Teen parents, very little stability in the home, lack of guidance from a father, poor role modeling, are the sources of much of the pain these young men feel, imo.

Like you, my daughter is mixed race. She is half Jamaican, and quarter American Indian, a quarter Swedish. So I know it is complicated. She is the one who first told me about this shooting. She was outraged and so was I. But after coming here and reading THE FACTS, I changed my mind about what really happened. And it really bothers me that people keep chanting for the death of OW. And teaching their young kids to call for his death!

And that is just keeping that whole cycle of neglect and abuse going in the upcoming generation, imo. What do the kids expect their future to be if they start having babies with various partners at age 15, don't graduate from school, and just bounce around from place to place? How can they blame others when they set that situation up for themselves? The school I worked for in South Central Los Angeles had a built in nursery for the babies, and this was in the 90's. It is like setting up the expectation that young girls would become pregnant. Some girls had two babies in care during their high school years.

SOOO much of the issue starts at home. Unfortunately, that's not an option for these men that are angry and full of rage today. I agree we need to get a family structure back into place that allows for a more appropriate upbringing. That said, I refuse to accept that it's too late for the young men that are already grown, looking for something different. They didn't have the structure growing up, they're already behind the 8-ball. Their families are not going to help them at this point- their families contributed to the mess we see today- so it falls to others. The community, the political system, volunteers- either that or we give up, and understand these young men are going to be part of the future. These young men are the pool in which my own daughters will likely choose a mate from some day. I feel it is part of my responsibility as a parent, and as a resident of the metro east to do something about that. I honestly believe these men are at a cross-road. They can go the route they always thought they'd go- gangs, crime, prison, death- or they can do something different. I want to be one of the people who shows them that "something different" is a viable option for them.

 

[reedus23]

The narrative around them being "tanks" in the media and online has been that LE caused the riots by the equipment they used, as opposed to it being in response to the mob, which isn't borne out by facts and the timeline. Like LE was overly aggressive first. It appears to be part of the storyline used to get DOJ to intervene in Ferguson, and to draw in more protestors.

Eta: reply to K_Z started prior to LambChop's post. Hit wrong button, apparently, again. :facepalm:

To be clear, I don't care who started what, when. I'd be more than happy to sell ya our tanks and get them out of our community.

As to what led to the DOJ, while I'm against the militarization of our police department, I think everything changed when they arrested the journalists. I had even made a comment at the time that, even with all the other craziness going on, the arresting of the journalists was a major mess up for the department.

 

[Muffet]

My problem is that she calls white people KKK, including the Jewish man that had his car surrounded on Saturday. Though I think her language isn't fitting of a senator it is the least of her bad behavior IMO.

ITA, and TBH, it's the pattern that disturbs me the most.

Leaders should lead people to independence, but too many would be without a job if they couldn't sell themselves as the big hearted "rescuer."

So, they use divisive, inflammatory rhetoric and enabling excuses that infantilizes people (regardless of race, btw), taking away the critical sense of internal locus of control humans need.

Truly empowering people requires politicos to stop such exploitation, and for parents and others to soul search and learn to let go... Of the messiah complexes, the codependent thinking, and FTLOG, low expectations.

Low expectations are toxic.

:gaah: I wasn't going to go there, but it's the elephant in the room, imo.

SO What disturbs me most about this pattern is that, while enablers and pandering politicians posture (or misguidedly believe) they have big hearts for their special children or group, they will steamroller right over other people.

This poor driver. Other drivers. Shopkeepers. Innocent, responsible residents. Elderly people in fear. Babies. Children. Taxpayers. Good cops...

The list of people victimized by "big hearts" indirectly and outright directly is endless.

 

[Klood-N]

Excellent post Klood, very strong work!!! Below is a little more detailed timeline I put together using police reports and the videos from the various players. I post this with the caveat that the times all hinge on whether page 15 of the 16 page handout to the media is an accurate depiction of when the police cars arrived on scene. As you will see, there are some differences in times on mine compared to yours.

Yeah, I didn't go to the second, but did link and use the FPD document release. Disagree on the sheet timing, per other sources. If the video times can be verified, that's helpful information. :thumb:

 

[Frydaddy]

It's interesting that your impression is that the clergy are absent. They are not. They're everywhere (including tonight's town hall). Perhaps MSM doesn't find their input worthy of covering, but they are the people who were opening shelters with water and food for the (peaceful) protesters, they organized the drop-in by the United Way, where hot lunches were provided to neighborhood youth who wouldn't otherwise eat, because school was cancelled. They've been meeting multiple times a week with local officials to discuss positive change within the community. I'm sorry those who aren't right here with us are getting such a slanted view of what's occuring. As for race baiters, yes, there are some. However, you are witnessing the pain of a community that has not been supported by the overall system locally for many yeats. Lots of legitimate hurt, anger and mistrust is prevalent. And it's completely understandable.

I agree with this, but often when I hear it, it only covers a small part of the entire picture. Would love to discuss this further, at a place of Lamb's choosing if this is going beyond the scope of what she's willing to allow.

 

[Klood-N]

Okay, now we need to really look at this picture. The man is clearly taller than I am and I just went out and check my car and I had to bend over to get into a position where my mirror would have hit me in the back portion of the upper arm and that is not while standing on a sidewalk. We know, by the video posted earlier, that it appears he was leaning over in front of the vehicle which looks as if he is trying to get another photo of the man's license. Again, why. There were 5 or 6 people taking pictures of the man's license plate all yelling I got it, I got it before Mustafa was even struck by the mirror. Why were so many people taking a picture of this poor man's marker number while they surrounded him and long before anyone was hit?

I keep wondering if he isn't someone they were watching for ahead of time for some reason.

 

[reedus23]

LAPD has a pretty good program.They found the best time to form bonds with the low-income youth is with sports. So they have various youth sports programs---football, Basketball, boxing----where the coaches are LAPD employees. If they have a chance to get to know thw neighborhood kids when they are ages 7- 12, then it is helpful when they become teens to have that foundation.

Those are awesome ideas katydid. Love it.

 

[K_Z]

SOOO much of the issue starts at home. Unfortunately, that's not an option for these men that are angry and full of rage today. I agree we need to get a family structure back into place that allows for a more appropriate upbringing. That said, I refuse to accept that it's too late for the young men that are already grown, looking for something different. They didn't have the structure growing up, they're already behind the 8-ball. Their families are not going to help them at this point- their families contributed to the mess we see today- so it falls to others. The community, the political system, volunteers- either that or we give up, and understand these young men are going to be part of the future. These young men are the pool in which my own daughters will likely choose a mate from some day. I feel it is part of my responsibility as a parent, and as a resident of the metro east to do something about that. I honestly believe these men are at a cross-road. They can go the route they always thought they'd go- gangs, crime, prison, death- or they can do something different. I want to be one of the people who shows them that "something different" is a viable option for them.

Recommend military service! See my comments above. It's a really great option. Really!

 

[LambChop]

:modstop:

Stop attacking a local poster who is trying to get us inside information or the discussion will be off limits.

 

[CMac2]

Recommend military service! See my comments above. It's a really great option. Really!

The military would be perfect for a lot of these young men. It's not easy to convince them of that. Many balk at the idea of putting their lives on the line for a nation that doesn't even want them living in it. Again, that's not how I feel, but I'm just repeating what I hear day in and day out. We have to convince people that the nation as a whole does not hate them, or want them to fail. We want them to succeed, and it won't be easy, and they'll fall down a thousand times before they get it right, but at the end of the day, they have to want it for themselves more than I want it for them. Just as I'm screaming at everybody else to LISTEN TO THEM, and learn from their experiences, they have to open their ears and minds and listen too. That's what I mean when I say the solution will come from all sides, not just one.

 

[Klood-N]

More pix here from Stenger press conference
One might be Vickers. Looks like Shahid has a new accessory, price tag still on it??
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/09/22/ferguson-protestors-target-steve-stenger/

 

[Muffet]

Okay, now we need to really look at this picture. The man is clearly taller than I am and I just went out and check my car and I had to bend over to get into a position where my mirror would have hit me in the back portion of the upper arm and that is not while standing on a sidewalk. We know, by the video posted earlier, that it appears he was leaning over in front of the vehicle which looks as if he is trying to get another photo of the man's license. Again, why. There were 5 or 6 people taking pictures of the man's license plate all yelling I got it, I got it before Mustafa was even struck by the mirror. Why were so many people taking a picture of this poor man's marker number while they surrounded him and long before anyone was hit?

ITA! I was hoping he disappeared because he got booked for faking evidence.

To me, the entire scene felt setup, and when Maria Chappelle said that was her intern "run over by the kkk" it screamed setup.

So, have we established as a fact that Mustafa is one of her interns? :dunno:

And how can we find out the status of this poor driver?

 

[katydid23]

SOOO much of the issue starts at home. Unfortunately, that's not an option for these men that are angry and full of rage today. I agree we need to get a family structure back into place that allows for a more appropriate upbringing. That said, I refuse to accept that it's too late for the young men that are already grown, looking for something different. They didn't have the structure growing up, they're already behind the 8-ball. Their families are not going to help them at this point- their families contributed to the mess we see today- so it falls to others. The community, the political system, volunteers- either that or we give up, and understand these young men are going to be part of the future. These young men are the pool in which my own daughters will likely choose a mate from some day. I feel it is part of my responsibility as a parent, and as a resident of the metro east to do something about that. I honestly believe these men are at a cross-road. They can go the route they always thought they'd go- gangs, crime, prison, death- or they can do something different. I want to be one of the people who shows them that "something different" is a viable option for them.

BBM

I hear ya about that. My daughter is 22 now. In high school she dated a white kid for 2 years. In college, a black athlete, for 2 years. But now she seems to have 'settled down' with a Mexican-Jew' ---go figure. lol

My son, also multi-ethnic, pretty much rejected the gangster culture. He does like hip-hop and rap music, but never got into low riding pants or sideways ball caps. He loved cars and trucks and kind of found his niche driving fast. Other than some expensive speeding tix, it was a good way to go in his teen years. People of all ethnicities got along working on their engines together, meeting after dark to race in empty parking lots. And when the cops did come along to bust them, they praised them for not being in traffic and bringing danger to others. But made them move along.

Which is lucky because he has gone on to work for homeland security and needed a clean background check. Although the speeding tickets were a bit of a hindrance for a time. I wish kids could understand that the choices they make at 15 and 16, do follow them.

 

[CMac2]

<modsnip> QUOTE]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the people I'm referring to are somehow unintelligent? They are misguided for sure, but they certainly are not stupid. Doctor and Lawyer was a euphamism for "professional". Unfortunately, in this community (and in many others like it), young AA males are more likely to aspire to be the next rap artist or pro football player than they are to aspire to be CEO of a company, an accountant, or yes, a doctor/lawyer. Their IQ is not a factor in this equation. Role models, and a belief in themselves, coupled with support (or lack thereof) from their community is.

 

[Klood-N]

Was it ever verified if the driver was arrested, who he was, what the charge was, if so?

 

[LambChop]

I keep wondering if he isn't someone they were watching for ahead of time for some reason.

No, you can see him pull up. But the videographer is standing across the street filming, you see the protestors giving drivers high fives/handshakes. Protestors are lined up across the street so no one can get through, blocking traffic. Then we see a blue car which tries to turn around and is blocked so as the black SUV pulls up the blue car backs up and the SUV seems to move forward as if he was afraid the blue car would back into him (that's what I think I got from that). Next thing you know everyone is rushing over to the black SUV and the photographer moves also. They start taking pictures of the plate number. I do not see where the backpack guy came anywhere near the SUV's tire because he was in front of the car not on the side when they all decided they needed to take pictures of his marker number.

What I got was he was the first lone male driver that was the designated victim because he fit what they needed. No other witnesses in his car. It was as if they spotted him and they were off physically blocking him in. What they did not know was that the man's name was Cohn, totally opposite of what they had hoped to achieve. And then the memorialized it on film. jmo