Found Deceased MO - John Forsyth, 49, doctor, Mercy ER Clinic, Cassville, 21 May 2023 *car found* #2

[Puzzles8]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

IMO, there still is not any reason to decisively conclude either suicide or homicide, yet.

LE has been radio silent. Until they make a statement, no actual facts are known.
JMO

 

[neesaki]

IMO, there still is not any reason to decisively conclude either suicide or homicide, yet.

LE has been radio silent. Until they make a statement, no actual facts are known.
JMO

I absolutely agree. No reason to conclude anything.
I’ll wait.

Peace!

 

[Ontario Mom]

I think he pre-arranged to meet with someone where he parked his car. He paid that person a good sum of cash to drive him to the campground in Arkansas. Tipped this driver another large sum of money to remain silent.
Walked into the river and shot himself. I've changed my theory from murder to suicide because all things considered, I believe JF was overwhelmed and desperate and death by his own hand is making more sense now than murder.

I'm not sure about the transporation set up, but I do suspect this is a suicide.

jmo

 

[Chelly]

Interesting theory, he probably had some reason to do that. But why go to all that trouble? He's a doctor, he would know his body would be found in Beaver Lake and identified.

Like most theories here, this leaves questions.

 

[Jojefos]

I've come to the same conclusion. It's a scenario that fits what few facts we have. But why Arkansas? Why that lake?

Google body found in Beaver Lake AR, plus any year since 1970 and you’ll likely get something. Not every one known to have drowned there is recovered and not all recovered drowned there. I am most curious to find out if he died at the lake, hopefully the coroners results will be released and conclusive.

 

[Dhighsmith]

In the interview mentions above, at ~29:00, Richard says that on the Fri (5/19) before Dr. F disappeared, "he made arrangements with his accountant that I, well he clarified with his accountant, that I (Richard) should be able to act in his place if he were not available." The interviewer asked if that meant Richard could act like his brother's power of attorney, Richard responded "yeah, something like that." Richard clarified that Dr. F did NOT sign control over all of his financials to Richard, nothing involving his personal finances; this only concerned "only his finances concerning the joint venture we had together". I believe the "venture" Richard is referring to is ONFO and my impression is that ONFO was failing even before Dr. F's disappearance.

Thanks for sharing details on interview. There was much speculation regarding possibility that business was connected to death so it’s likely Richard was trying to clear up suspicions of business dealings. The ability to act on his behalf is very different than signing over the company.

 

[Jojefos]

I’ve been mulling this over a few days, wondering why some felt dr Forsyth was desperate or depressed. He certainly did not appear so from the outside. His divorce wasn’t just amicable, he literally waived appearance, letting his wife set the terms as she had let him the first time.
There are comments that he was unfaithful but his other child was likely while divorced and the last baby after they had filed for separation. By all accounts he loved being a dad, and was planning a visit with his older kids. His business wasn’t failing in that it wasn’t meant to be profitable and as for the wrongful death claim, he’s an er dr, he has insurance for such I’m sure. All opinion, just putting it out there as it’s what’s been on my mind

 

[Ed Teach]

...wondering why some felt dr Forsyth was desperate or depressed. He certainly did not appear so from the outside.

He had a lot of dubious things going on...and let's not talk about the money cause we really don't know. Ever heard of the term mid life crisis?

Even first rate stand up bad to the bone people are just human beings and human beings are fragile in ways even strong people.

 

[Jojefos]

He had a lot of dubious things going on...and let's not talk about the money cause we really don't know. Ever heard of the term mid life crisis?

Even first rate stand up bad to the bone people are just human beings and human beings are fragile in ways even strong people.

I’m not disparaging your point of view, more asking what it is that you are seeing that points to despair, not to refute it, but to see what I’ve missed. <modsnip>

 

[al66pine]

Amicable Dissolution of Marriage?

.... His divorce wasn’t just amicable, he literally waived appearance, letting his wife set the terms as she had let him the first time.

snipped for focus. @Jojefos Some docket entries make me wonder about how amicable the Dis/Mar #2 was.

1.
The LAPSE OF TIME from April 12, 2022 petition filing (by Penny Lynn's atty) to May 10, 2023 "Judgment on Dissolution." * That's 13 MONTHS.*
Does anything on the docket indicate reason for lapse of time?
After July 29, 2022 docket entry, nothing else til April 13, 2023. Why?
Were the parties & her atty discussing $$$?
If this separation was amicable, was there a need for extended negotiating, for 8 1/2 months? Or was there a stand-off w one party refusing to communicate on the subject?
IDK

Compare w their first Dis/Mar** timing: April 29, 2019 petition filing (by Dr F.'s atty) to June 4, 2019 D/M decree, or ONE MONTH (well, 5 weeks) later.
In that proceeding, the parties submitted a separation agreement to the court, w legal description of real properties divided, as shown on the June 4, 2019 docket entry re decree.

2.
Possible Difficulty in Serving Dr. F?
July 29, 2022 Docket entry.
Summons to serve him w petition, "non est"
For a 3 month plus period, server could not locate him (IIRC from docket entry)?????
Why? Was he - a physician working at a local hosp.'s ER - dodging the process server, or was process server given bad address/info, or am I misunderstanding this entry?

There may be perfectly good reasons for the two ^ points, but they caught my attn. imo

________________________________
* Dissolution of Marriage #1.
https://www.courts.mo.gov/cnet/case...ber=22LW-DR00074&inputVO.coutrtId=CT39#docket
** Dissolution of Marriage #2.

https://www.courts.mo.gov/cnet/cases/newHeader.do?inputVO.caseNumber=19SL-DR02153&inputVO.courtId=CT21#docket

 

[Ed Teach]

I’m not disparaging your point of view, more asking what it is that you are seeing that points to despair, not to refute it, but to see what I’ve missed. <modsnip>

No worries you were wondering why "some felt JF was desperate or depressed" I was just answering with my opinion.

 

[Ed Teach]

I’ve been mulling this over a few days, wondering why some felt dr Forsyth was desperate or depressed. He certainly did not appear so from the outside. His divorce wasn’t just amicable, he literally waived appearance, letting his wife set the terms as she had let him the first time.
There are comments that he was unfaithful but his other child was likely while divorced and the last baby after they had filed for separation. By all accounts he loved being a dad, and was planning a visit with his older kids. His business wasn’t failing in that it wasn’t meant to be profitable and as for the wrongful death claim, he’s an er dr, he has insurance for such I’m sure. All opinion, just putting it out there as it’s what’s been on my mind

All of that is a lot on anyone's plate...and I'm sorry making babies, more than one, with more than one woman, outside of wedlock maybe, when you already have 7 or 8 but most importantly...with people you work with in a serious professional situation...that's dubious behavior and that could get a middle-aged man who may or may not be able to afford that situation into a depressed or despaired emotional state very easy. Seems obvious to me. My opinion.

It's tragic no matter how one dices it.

PS. I would imagine working in an ER could maybe get real depressing sometimes.

 

[Charlot123]

As I stated upthread, I really think that the announcement of an impending marriage was in the works throughout her pregnancy. My guess is that he promised her this, as soon as his divorce was finalized.

I do not think that the announcement three days prior has anything to do with pointing towards homicide or suicide. It was just their plan.

As of a few days ago, I was leaning towards 'homicide' based on one simple fact. However, learning a bit more about the 'estate confusion issues', TODAY, I am leaning towards suicide.

Ha! That trickly little needle shivers and wiggles!!

I do feel, if suicide, John would do everything in his power to make it look like homicide.
Primarily, for religious reasons. moo

For religious reasons, JF would stay away from suicide. Or do you mean, in order not to traumatize his community?

Does LDS church view suicide the same way as Catholicism does, as a grave sin? Or does LDS, being closer to more lenient branches of Christianity, such as Methodists, for example, accepts the fact that humans are sometimes powerless and provides depressed, tired people more hope in the afterlife?

<modsnip: No link to source re information stated as fact>

Would a religious member of LDS church go by the rules, or “pretend it did not happen”?

From the standpoint of the afterlife, it makes sense to at least leave the note, to minimize the impact.

But if JF was less thinking of religion per se and more, about his families, children and community, he’d, indeed, do everything to stage a homicide.

I wouldn’t be surprised either way. I imagine it being a hot Southern day, and the circle of life for this smart, energetic, gregarious man, with plans and projects, was limited by a tiny range between the hospital and his RV. The people who knew him said that he looked happier than ever. Sometimes it is not contentment, but exalted happiness, followed by a precipitous descent. Suicide is shocking specifically because the person seemed so happy, but it may develop rapidly, in an unplanned, impulsive fashion.

Could dr. JF, given his impulsiveness and larger-than-life personality, accrue enemies? Also possible.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

For religious reasons, JF would stay away from suicide. Or do you mean, in order not to traumatize his community?

Does LDS church view suicide the same way as Catholicism does, as a grave sin? Or does LDS, being closer to more lenient branches of Christianity, such as Methodists, for example, accepts the fact that humans are sometimes powerless and provides depressed, tired people more hope in the afterlife?

<modsnip: No link to source re information stated as fact>

Would a religious member of LDS church go by the rules, or “pretend it did not happen”?

From the standpoint of the afterlife, it makes sense to at least leave the note, to minimize the impact.

But if JF was less thinking of religion per se and more, about his families, children and community, he’d, indeed, do everything to stage a homicide.

I wouldn’t be surprised either way. I imagine it being a hot Southern day, and the circle of life for this smart, energetic, gregarious man, with plans and projects, was limited by a tiny range between the hospital and his RV. The people who knew him said that he looked happier than ever. Sometimes it is not contentment, but exalted happiness, followed by a precipitous descent. Suicide is shocking specifically because the person seemed so happy, but it may develop rapidly, in an unplanned, impulsive fashion.

Could dr. JF, given his impulsiveness and larger-than-life personality, accrue enemies? Also possible.

LDS Beliefs: A Doctrinal Reference published by the church, the section on suicide called it "self-murder" and stated that, "modern prophets and apostles have likewise spoken clearly about the seriousness of murder, including self-murder and the severity of consequences associated therewith."[13] The LDS Church opposes physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia.

Views on suicide in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Brown bear]

LDS Beliefs: A Doctrinal Reference published by the church, the section on suicide called it "self-murder" and stated that, "modern prophets and apostles have likewise spoken clearly about the seriousness of murder, including self-murder and the severity of consequences associated therewith."[13] The LDS Church opposes physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia.

Views on suicide in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That Wikipedia article is a harsher interpretation of doctrine. A better understanding of mental health has softened the church’s tone. The following comes from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ website:

When someone takes their own life, only God is able to judge their thoughts, their actions, and their level of accountability. Suicide need not be the defining characteristic of an individual’s eternal life (see 1 Samuel 16:7; Doctrine and Covenants 137:9; Dale G. Renlund, “Grieving after a Suicide” [video, suicide.ChurchofJesusChrist.org]).

<modsnip: Referenced post was modsnipped>

I’m not stating here that I believe that my cousin committed suicide. I can’t say for sure. Just waiting for more information.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

That Wikipedia article is a harsher interpretation of doctrine. A better understanding of mental health has softened the church’s tone. The following comes from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ website:

When someone takes their own life, only God is able to judge their thoughts, their actions, and their level of accountability. Suicide need not be the defining characteristic of an individual’s eternal life (see 1 Samuel 16:7; Doctrine and Covenants 137:9; Dale G. Renlund, “Grieving after a Suicide” [video, suicide.ChurchofJesusChrist.org]).

<modsnip: Referenced post was modsnipped>

I’m not stating here that I believe that my cousin committed suicide. I can’t say for sure. Just waiting for more information.

Way back in this thread, I also stated it was softer doctrine, as discussed with my LDS relatives in the past. But the Wikipedia entry does provide sources, so probably does represent original doctrine.

 

[snubenergy]

That Wikipedia article is a harsher interpretation of doctrine. A better understanding of mental health has softened the church’s tone. The following comes from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ website:

When someone takes their own life, only God is able to judge their thoughts, their actions, and their level of accountability. Suicide need not be the defining characteristic of an individual’s eternal life (see 1 Samuel 16:7; Doctrine and Covenants 137:9; Dale G. Renlund, “Grieving after a Suicide” [video, suicide.ChurchofJesusChrist.org]).

<modsnip: Referenced post was modsnipped>

I’m not stating here that I believe that my cousin committed suicide. I can’t say for sure. Just waiting for more information.

Hope you are doing alright, @Brown bear , it seems there has been no further chance for closure for you or the family. Hope that everyone is dealing with this as well as can be expected.

While we are on the topic of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, how active a member was Johnny recently? I'm sure he couldn't attend weekly, what with his ER duties, but in your/the families understanding was he still a strong member of the church, or was he seen as drifting away from it, or even 'ex-mormon?'

I'm curious if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints's would have had an outsized affect on John R. Forsyth's decision making here as some are speculating.

 

[Ed Teach]

I'm curious if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints's would have had an outsized affect on John R. Forsyth's decision making here as some are speculating.

@ BB. I want to say the same I hope you are well upright and steady!

@ snubenergy I think the LDS church was the furthest thing from his mind but that is just my opinion (a 'hunch' may be a better word) I really don't know though.

 

[Brown bear]

@ BB. I want to say the same I hope you are well upright and steady!

@ snubenergy I think the LDS church was the furthest thing from his mind but that is just my opinion (a 'hunch' may be a better word) I really don't know though.

Replying to both snubenergy and Ed Teach:

I will pass along something Richard said at the funeral. Johnny was interested in the intersection of religion and math. He studied about spiritual things, and read the scriptures. He thought about the universe.

As for his activity in the church in recent years, I can’t speak to that. I do know he enjoyed reading about church history. Family history interested him, too, even recently.

Thank you for your kind, thoughtful words. I’m learning that, for me at least, there is grieving that is separate from the investigation. It is better for me to grieve for my cousin as I would (and have) for other loved family members and friends who have died. Obsessing about the investigation brings no comfort. I don’t anticipate any good news coming from LE. How could there be any good news? Hopefully there will be a relief, of sorts, to have some questions answered. But peace comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[al66pine]

Homicide Investigation? Death Investigation?

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
IMO, there still is not any reason to decisively conclude either suicide or homicide, yet.
LE has been radio silent. Until they make a statement, no actual facts are known. JMO

Agreeing w ^.
IIRC, LE agencies in MO. were investigating as a MisPers case.
I don't recall the most recent stmt from AR. (where remains were located) LE, except that there would be no public stmt until after autopsy report was finalized.
Maybe something since then that I've missed. Anyone? A link pls?

_______________________________________

Speaking generally---
When LE in US publicly states it is conducting a DEATH investigation, LE is investigating MANNER of death* as:
- Death by natural causes, e.g. illness.
- Death by Unnatural causes
"An unnatural death results from an external cause, typically including homicides, suicides, accidents, medical errors, alcohol intoxications and drug overdoses...." *
IOW, a death investigation is b---r---o---a---d, could be anything.

OTOH, again, still speaking generally---
When LE in US publicly states it is conducting a HOMICIDE investigation LE is investigating MANNER of death* as a homicide (e.g. murder, manslaughter), meaning it has RULED OUT natural cause (like illness), ruled out suicide, ruled out other manners of death.

imo.

* Manner of death - Wikipedia
"In the United States, a manner of death is expressed as belonging to one classification of a group of six possible:[12][7][11]
"Natural
Accident
Suicide
Homicide
Undetermined
Pending."