Found Deceased MO - John Forsyth, 49, doctor, Mercy ER Clinic, Cassville, 21 May 2023 *car found* #2

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Brown bear said:
Replying to both snubenergy and Ed Teach:

I will pass along something Richard said at the funeral. Johnny was interested in the intersection of religion and math. He studied about spiritual things, and read the scriptures. He thought about the universe.

As for his activity in the church in recent years, I can’t speak to that. I do know he enjoyed reading about church history. Family history interested him, too, even recently.

Thank you for your kind, thoughtful words. I’m learning that, for me at least, there is grieving that is separate from the investigation. It is better for me to grieve for my cousin as I would (and have) for other loved family members and friends who have died. Obsessing about the investigation brings no comfort. I don’t anticipate any good news coming from LE. How could there be any good news? Hopefully there will be a relief, of sorts, to have some questions answered. But peace comes through faith in Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
I suppose I should add that some days it’s hard not to obsess about the investigation. I’m only human. But I’m hanging in there. I’ve never been through a loss like this one.

Johnny didn’t like cinnamon. Isn’t that a funny little quirk?
 
Brown bear said:
I suppose I should add that some days it’s hard not to obsess about the investigation. I’m only human. But I’m hanging in there. I’ve never been through a loss like this one.

Johnny didn’t like cinnamon. Isn’t that a funny little quirk?
Click to expand...
That is something that helps! I've decided the quirky things keep the love alive. I have pictures of my sweet quirky husband in every room...and I, especially, love a portrait drawn by a dear friend, after he passed.
And all our friends----we ALWAYS dwell on his quirkiness as life goes on---not the long period of the pain, the hope of recovery, and all the set backs waiting for the end.
YOUR word quirk is something to cherish and hold on to. I just feel certain you will have lots of great quirkiness to remember. I sure do.
 
al66pine said:
Amicable Dissolution of Marriage?

snipped for focus. @Jojefos Some docket entries make me wonder about how amicable the Dis/Mar #2 was.

1.
The LAPSE OF TIME from April 12, 2022 petition filing (by Penny Lynn's atty) to May 10, 2023 "Judgment on Dissolution." * That's 13 MONTHS.*
Does anything on the docket indicate reason for lapse of time?
After July 29, 2022 docket entry, nothing else til April 13, 2023. Why?
Were the parties & her atty discussing $$$?
If this separation was amicable, was there a need for extended negotiating, for 8 1/2 months? Or was there a stand-off w one party refusing to communicate on the subject?


All good points. I also noticed her attorney seems to be the same one Richard’s ex wife used in their divorce years earlier.
Click to expand...
 
Personally, having spent a lot of time in true crime/missing persons cases, I feel like self-harm or suicide is a conclusion/theory by 'subtraction'. I look at the likelihood or possibilities of third party involvement, both in terms of practical (logistics) and motive.

I remind myself: it doesn't need to be perfect (that only happens in fiction), things tend to be simpler than we think, and that the 'pieces' (evidence, facts, etc.) have to line up generally.

Reasons to believe JF's death is suspicious
- The white van seen in the parking lot before he disappeared
- Him being found 30 miles away from his last known location
- Him having six phones (that's a lot)

Things that need clarification
- Whether JF was deceased before entering the water
- if self-harm, how he reached the lake without his car
- did he know how to use/own a firearm, as his brother said that he didn't own guns or know how to use one.
- If the reported kidnapping had anything to do with this.

I think it's accurate to say I'm undecided. Neither theory seems to line up very well, at least with the facts as released.
 
SimplyCass said:
I remind myself: it doesn't need to be perfect (that only happens in fiction), things tend to be simpler than we think, and
that the 'pieces' (evidence, facts, etc.) have to line up generally.
Click to expand...
Good summary, I completely agree. We tend to over complicate things and wild theories develop.
Reasons to believe JF's death is suspicious
- The white van seen in the parking lot before he disappeared
Click to expand...
Wasn't this an SUV?
- Him being found 30 miles away from his last known location
Click to expand...
This is one of the biggest things for me. I have heard of people being a mile or two away...30 does not make sense for an intelligent Doctor. There is not a simple explanation for it.
- Him having six phones (that's a lot)
Click to expand...
No one said they were all active. I have a drawer full of old phones. Also, having multiple phones for someone that needs to be on call and available 24/7 is reasonable to me. My home is in a dead zone for one carrier. Where I used to work was in a dead zone for another carrier. A good part of my commute was dead for both. I would need 3 phones to cover the area where I live and my family lives. Rural life!!!
Things that need clarification
- Whether JF was deceased before entering the water
Click to expand...
With a GSW, he pretty much had to be. Do you mean, how long before?
- if self-harm, how he reached the lake without his car
Click to expand...
This is where LE may have info. If he traveled by any method other than in the trunk of someone's car, someone saw something. If he was walking, got a ride, uber, cab, etc. With the amount of media coverage this story is getting, I am sure LE received info if he was seen traveling.
- did he know how to use/own a firearm, as his brother said that he didn't own guns or know how to use one.
- If the reported kidnapping had anything to do with this.
Click to expand...
I would like LE to provide any information on anything. I went through all the news articles up in the thread, and all details we know were provided by his brother. LE has directly released very little.
 
megs1477 said:
Good summary, I completely agree. We tend to over complicate things and wild theories develop.

Wasn't this an SUV?
Click to expand...
yes
megs1477 said:
No one said they were all active. I have a drawer full of old phones. Also, having multiple phones for someone that needs to be on call and available 24/7 is reasonable to me. My home is in a dead zone for one carrier. Where I used to work was in a dead zone for another carrier. A good part of my commute was dead for both. I would need 3 phones to cover the area where I live and my family lives. Rural life!!!
Click to expand...
Most recent article reports a total of 5 phones. Not sure where you got 6.
We also know these 5 phones had service, from the interview with Pascal.
 
RE: the kidnapping earlier in John's short but exciting life:

"John said the harrowing ordeal was somehow related to cryptocurrency but did not offer details."

from snubenergy's link:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/murdered-missouri-doctors-family-reveals-chilling-new-details-about-how-he-was-killed/ar-AA1cMWpV



"... John texted his fiancée that he would see her in "a little bit" as he walked out of the hospital.

She replied at 6:59 a.m. but he never responded."

I think he didn't respond bc he was meeting the finance' over by the pool and the compost. Hence, "see you in a little bit."


And, then, there's this:

"His brother said he and his ex-wife, with whom he shares seven of his eight children, were on good terms, and their relationship ended about two years ago."

8 + 1 with LB = 9 children
$19,000 per month payments for child support and for PF.

Talk about your financial and physical burdens! Most of us go to work on the first of the month to pay a mortgage and maybe private school right off the bat. FIrst thing those institutions want is their money. But, John, he owed $19k as soon as he woke up on the first of every month in addition to his other bills, ie, bills for 5-6 phones, nice cars, etal.
 
DeDee said:
RE: the kidnapping earlier in John's short but exciting life:

"John said the harrowing ordeal was somehow related to cryptocurrency but did not offer details."

from snubenergy's link:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/murdered-missouri-doctors-family-reveals-chilling-new-details-about-how-he-was-killed/ar-AA1cMWpV



"... John texted his fiancée that he would see her in "a little bit" as he walked out of the hospital.

She replied at 6:59 a.m. but he never responded."

I think he didn't respond bc he was meeting the finance' over by the pool and the compost. Hence, "see you in a little bit."


And, then, there's this:

"His brother said he and his ex-wife, with whom he shares seven of his eight children, were on good terms, and their relationship ended about two years ago."

8 + 1 with LB = 9 children
$19,000 per month payments for child support and for PF.

Talk about your financial and physical burdens! Most of us go to work on the first of the month to pay a mortgage and maybe private school right off the bat. FIrst thing those institutions want is their money. But, John, he owed $19k as soon as he woke up on the first of every month in addition to his other bills, ie, bills for 5-6 phones, nice cars, etal.
Click to expand...
I thought John’s 7 kids we're from his marriage and the 8th was conceived with a girlfriend. I must be confused.
 
$15,000/Mo. Pymts. Forever? Impact on JF's Mental/Emotional State?

Some posts say, ct order in Dis/Mar #2 for JF to pay $15,000/mo is "alimony" & is "forever;" some MSM referred to it in similar terms.
Some posters also suggested facing these pymts forever or for decades might drive a man to desperation, thoughts of suicide. Maybe, IDK.

Per Docket Entry* the ct ordered payments of $15,000/mo. ---
1. are neither "alimony" nor "maintenance"** as it
--- does not refer to either "alimony" or "maintenance," **
--- specifies those pymts = "DIVISION OF PROPERTY AND DEBT."***

2. continue "...UNTIL FURTHER ORDER OF THIS COURT OR UNTIL THE REMARRIAGE OF WIFE OR DEATH OF HUSBAND."*

Before JF Went Missing. Desperation?
Order does not/did not necessarily obligate JF to pay "forever" and perhaps not even a decade. See hypo.
If ex-wife remarried, he could terminate $15,000/mo pymts to her.

And IIUC he could (have) at a future point made a motion asking court modify the order, to terminate the Div/Prop & Debt pymts.

Oversimplified HYPOthetical. Per HYPO financial stmts Husband & then-Wife submit to ct, the value of marital property is HYPO'ly $1,800,000 & no debt when petition is filed.
Couple + atty's do not reach division of prop agreement, so per statute, ct divides marital prop & marital debts as "deemed just."***
Say, HYPO'ly, judge deems an even split is "just" so $900,000 to each, and orders Husb. to pay $15,000/mo to her. HYPO'ly, ex-Husb. complies by paying $15,000/mo, for 60 months, so $900,000 total.
Then at end of 5 yr period, if ex-Husb. files motion asking ct modify its intial order, to terminate any further paymts which represented division of prop & debt to ex-wife, which the ct pegged at $900,000, does it seem likely ct would grant it?

Any FAMILY LAW ATTORNEYS??? Welcoming comment.

We could slice & dice the figures for prop. value, division of prop, etc. many ways, but the GEN'L QUESTION =
Would facing this kind of pymt, assuming there is an end in sight thru potential for ct to terminate payments, drive a person to desperation & thoughts of suicide? IDK.

From brother Richard's stmts to MSM, JF seemed upbeat during their last visit (my word, cannot recall his specific phrase).

I wonder if LE will make stmt, perhaps investigating as a homicide.
________________________________
* From Docket Entries:
" ... DIVISION OF PROPERTY AND DEBT PER THE DECREE THE COURT ORDERS HUSBAND TO PAY TO WIFE THE SUM OF $15,000.00 PER MONTH COMMENCING MAY 15, 2023 AND THE 15TH OF EACH MONTH THEREAFTER UNTIL FURTHER ORDER OF THIS COURT OR UNTIL THE REMARRIAGE OF WIFE OR DEATH OF HUSBAND..."
^ https://www.courts.mo.gov/cnet/case...er=22LW-DR00074&inputVO.courtId=CT39#judgment

** Terminology: some Mo. statutory sections governing Dis./Mar.(Missouri Revisor of Statutes - Revised Statutes of Missouri, RSMo Chapter 452)
still refer to "alimony," but 20 plus years ago, some sections were amended to refer to "maintenance." Regardless, alimony/maintenance is different from DIVISION of PROPERTY & DEBT.

*** In issuing a order for D/P&D, per section 452.330,
"... the court shall set apart to each spouse such spouse's nonmarital property and shall divide the marital property and marital debts in such proportions as the court deems just after considering all relevant factors including: ...."
452.330 Disposition of property and debts, factors to be considered.
revisor.mo.gov revisor.mo.gov
revisor.mo.gov

452.330

Disposition of property and debts, factors to be considered.
revisor.mo.gov revisor.mo.gov
 
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JF's Offspring?
Teche said:
I thought John’s 7 kids we're from his marriage and the 8th was conceived with a girlfriend. I must be confused.
Click to expand...
@Teche
That's what I recall, IIUC, from brother Richard's stmt fairly early on Pascal's podcast, livestreamed a day or so after remains were recovered. Sorry, no link, no min. marker re R's stmt.

I do not recall reading GF's child's age. Anyone?
 
al66pine said:
JF's Offspring?
@Teche
That's what I recall, IIUC, from brother Richard's stmt fairly early on Pascal's podcast, livestreamed a day or so after remains were recovered. Sorry, no link, no min. marker re R's stmt.

I do not recall reading GF's child's age. Anyone?
Click to expand...
iirc:
-seven children with his ex wife
-one child about 1 year old with a girlfriend - we do not know he name from MSM
-one child - newborn with his almost fiance
total 9 kids now
 
Rereading some posts in thread #1,* so may be covering ground already plowed.

Q: Could a PRENUP be why he had to pay so much in alimony?
Q: Family assets, either JF or wife, before marriage?

My thought: they may have executed a prenup agreement. IDK.
IIRC (not saying I do), JF first married when he was in mid-twenties, maybe in med school/ internship/residency, not raking in Beaucoup Bucks. Would a youngish med. professional like that have had time to accumulate earned income/wealth/assets to protect thru a prenup? IDK.
Maybe a prenup to protect what a person who anticipates future earning of Big Bucks? Possibly.

If a person in mid-20's (or any age) anticipates receiving substantial transfers of $$$/prop/assets from family, well, that in itself may be a good reason for executing a prenup.

A prenup does not necessarily lead to "so much" in alimony or maintenance or a property division or settlement.

Another possibility: Some couples execute ANTENUPTIAL agreements,* often for same reasons as PREnups. Did they? IDK.

Q: Re FAMILY ASSETS?
No clue about ex-wife's family's $$$.
Not gonna speculate about JF'S family's $$$. Books by his grandmother and mother are recognized and well regarded by some members of the community of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and by some others, but not universally so.

imo.
________________________________
* From thread 1, post by @jellybean96
www.websleuths.com

Found Deceased - MO - John Forsyth, 49, doctor, Mercy ER Clinic, Cassville, 21 May 2023 *car found*

https://www.courts.mo.gov/cnet/nameSearchResult.do?courtType=SW&countyCode=&newSearch=Y&essn=&courtCode=SW&lastName=forsyth&_inclAlias=on&firstName=john&middleName=r&caseType=All&yearFiled= I'm seeing two different case numbers, both with the same parties. The first one JF filed April 2019...
www.websleuths.com www.websleuths.com

** Antenuptial agreements
www.law.cornell.edu

antenuptial agreement

www.law.cornell.edu www.law.cornell.edu
 
al66pine said:
Per Docket Entry* the ct ordered payments of $15,000/mo. ---
1. are neither "alimony" nor "maintenance"** as it
--- does not refer to either "alimony" or "maintenance," **
--- specifies those pymts = "DIVISION OF PROPERTY AND DEBT."**
Click to expand...
"Per the decree", we are not seeing the actual decree, which would detail the children's ages, and how long child support is to last, ie to college, and who pays medicals, sports, etc. The docket entry clearly states $15,000 are maintenance payments.
His wife probably never had full-time employment outside the home, having raised children for the past 23 plus years, and will continue with 3 or 4 still dependants. The formulas for child support and spousal support vary by state but are always determined by the proportion of time spent with each parent and the earnings of each. A property division settlement is more complicated and would include his retirement, 401k, real estate, business holdings, her earning potential or lack of, etc. A specific amount is decided on, not ongoing payments of an unknown final amount.

The orders that were entered on the docket that is public, is the order only of child support and spousal support that is ordered to be paid to the Family Support Center, which in turn deposits money to the ex-wife's account. It is not a financial settlement.


PER THE DECREE THE COURT ORDERS HUSBAND TO PAY TO WIFE THE SUM OF $15,000.00 PER MONTH COMMENCING MAY 15, 2023 AND THE 15TH OF EACH MONTH THEREAFTER UNTIL FURTHER ORDER OF THIS COURT OR UNTIL THE REMARRIAGE OF WIFE OR DEATH OF HUSBAND. SUCH MAINTENANCE PAYMENTS SHALL BE PAID TO THE FAMILY SUPPORT PAYMENT CENTER IN JEFFERSON CITY, MO.
 
@NoSpoonFeeding
Thank you very much for pointing out that DOCKET entry phrase “MAINTENANCE PAYMENTS shall be made….” I realize that we are seeing Docket Entries, not the actual Decree.

What do you make of the Docket Entry phrase following the C/S orders “DIVISION OF PROPERTY AND DEBT PER THE DECREE THE COURT ORDERS HUSBAND TO PAY TO WIFE THE SUM OF’$15,000.00 PER MONTH…” which is also BEFORE mention of maintenance.

If ct characterized ths $15,000/mo payments as alimony, why is the D/P&D phrase in the Docket Entries?

Glad fo have your input. TYVM.
 
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Betty P said:
It's interesting, but I'm still not sure who killed him. I'm still leaning towards him being murdered.

1 Murdered in Cassville or elsewhere and his body dumped in Beaver Lake, AR

2 Murdered there at Beaver Lake, where he was found

3 He walked 30+ miles to Beaver Lake through rugged Ozark terrain and committed suicide

4 He committed suicide in the area where he was last seen on camera, then his body transported to the Beaver Lake in AR by someone who wanted it to appear to be a murder.

None of these really explain how his car ended up hidden in the maintenance area at swim park in Cassville.

Usually, the simplest answer is the most likely. The suicide scenarios don't make sense, at least not to me.

JMO
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3- Having been to the Ozarks, I wanted to remark that it would be absolutely impossible to get through that terrain unless he was hiding some fancy machete.

4- Yeah... that don't make sense either.

I agree with you.
SimplyCass said:
Personally, having spent a lot of time in true crime/missing persons cases, I feel like self-harm or suicide is a conclusion/theory by 'subtraction'. I look at the likelihood or possibilities of third party involvement, both in terms of practical (logistics) and motive.

I remind myself: it doesn't need to be perfect (that only happens in fiction), things tend to be simpler than we think, and that the 'pieces' (evidence, facts, etc.) have to line up generally.

Reasons to believe JF's death is suspicious
- The white van seen in the parking lot before he disappeared
- Him being found 30 miles away from his last known location
- Him having six phones (that's a lot)

Things that need clarification
- Whether JF was deceased before entering the water
- if self-harm, how he reached the lake without his car
- did he know how to use/own a firearm, as his brother said that he didn't own guns or know how to use one.
- If the reported kidnapping had anything to do with this.

I think it's accurate to say I'm undecided. Neither theory seems to line up very well, at least with the facts as released.
Click to expand...

DeDee said:
RE: the kidnapping earlier in John's short but exciting life:

"John said the harrowing ordeal was somehow related to cryptocurrency but did not offer details."

from snubenergy's link:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/murdered-missouri-doctors-family-reveals-chilling-new-details-about-how-he-was-killed/ar-AA1cMWpV



"... John texted his fiancée that he would see her in "a little bit" as he walked out of the hospital.

She replied at 6:59 a.m. but he never responded."

I think he didn't respond bc he was meeting the finance' over by the pool and the compost. Hence, "see you in a little bit."
Click to expand...
Correct about the fiancee stuff, GH goes into detail in the video posted a page or two ago about how John's fiancee Laura may very well have been the one meeting him in that parking lot as she is reported to have that exact make & model of vehicle in her possession. A tidbit I found interesting...

Anyway - if you put all the bolded parts of the quoted messages above together, I think personally that it makes it pretty clear that homicide is the leading theory.

A man with a cryptocurrency business who was RECENTLY KIDNAPPED and hid the kidnapping from his brother who's also his business partner, 6 phones, who just signed some rights on his business moreso to his brother so his brother can act if John is incapacitated etc, the car being hidden off the beaten path, his body with a gunshot wound an hour away. His brother is now scared for his and his family's wellbeing. All the signs are there. Occam's razor certainly points to this being a tragic and terrifying murder IMO
 
NeverPersonal said:
Correct about the fiancee stuff, GH goes into detail in the video posted a page or two ago about how John's fiancee Laura may very well have been the one meeting him in that parking lot as she is reported to have that exact make & model of vehicle in her possession. A tidbit I found interesting...

Anyway - if you put all the bolded parts of the quoted messages above together, I think personally that it makes it pretty clear that homicide is the leading theory.

A man with a cryptocurrency business who was RECENTLY KIDNAPPED and hid the kidnapping from his brother who's also his business partner, 6 phones, who just signed some rights on his business moreso to his brother so his brother can act if John is incapacitated etc, the car being hidden off the beaten path, his body with a gunshot wound an hour away. His brother is now scared for his and his family's wellbeing. All the signs are there. Occam's razor certainly points to this being a tragic and terrifying murder IMO
Click to expand...
I'm confused. What do you think happened?
 
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