MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 mos, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011

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According to the interview with the motorcycle guy,
it took him 2 weeks to call the cops and the only reason he did is because his cousin did it for him. Even though he picked Tanko out in a line up he'd had enough time to hear and see on TV what he looked like. This does not pass the smell test.

One of the things that disturbed me most about Megyn Kelly's initial interview was that Debra admitted to drinking like she did that night, at least twice a week. I'm going out on a limb and it's just my opinion, but mama has/ had a drinking problem.

Maybe relatives were concerned about Debra's drinking and decided to take matters into their own hands. Like finding a more suitable atmosphere for this sweet baby Lisa.

The cadaver dog only hit on one place. Right by the bed. No where else?! Debra's clothes, the backyard (which police harped on her about not searching back there. Why would she?!) IMO It wasn't the baby's decomposing body the dog hit on.

I am sorry to all of you who have done so much work on this. I jump in 3 years after it happened and am asking the same ol' questions.

But I can't say that Debra and Jeremy are lying.
There's more evidence to say they're not involved than there is showing they are involved. Unless, of course, police are sittng on something big and saving it for.......what?! IMO, they don't or they would have laid it out already.

And I'm not a huge fan of atty Tipicanoe(?!), but I do think someone needed (needs) to protect Debra and Jeremy not only from themselves but from the unrelenting media.

Without more compelling evidence to the contrary, I think it's quite possible Lisa is still out there.

JMO.

Tipicanoe! LOL Not making fun of you, but that had me cracking up. Tacopina is the lawyers name.

Don't feel bad about asking questions. If you are new or somewhat new to this case, you just want to be up to speed or give your input. :) Sadly, you will find that this thread mainly goes in circles though. You have the people who are positive that the parents are involved and then those who are not so sure.
 
Razz, I don't have a problem answering your questions or going around and around again. It's interesting to see the perspective of someone with fresh eyes. After three years of looking at this information, it's easy to get stuck in one's own opinion. Someone just coming in views things in a different light.

I'll have some more links for you in a little while.

Lisa's parents did an interview with Inside Edition that will air today.

http://www.insideedition.com/videos/3560-coming-up-on-the-next-inside-edition-tuesday-1-6
 
According to the interview with the motorcycle guy,
it took him 2 weeks to call the cops and the only reason he did is because his cousin did it for him. Even though he picked Tanko out in a line up he'd had enough time to hear and see on TV what he looked like. This does not pass the smell test.

Honestly, I don't think the motorcycle sighting is very credible. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's mistaken about what he saw. Or, maybe he did see Lisa. I don't know. I think the first sighting is the most important and is much more credible. The married couple reported it as soon as they found out Lisa was missing.

Also, the motorcycle guy did not pick Jersey out of a line-up. He picked out another man. It was not a police line-up. It was a line-up shown to him by Gil Abeyta. Gil's son Christopher was taken from his crib over 25 years ago. Read more about Gil and his theory in these articles:

http://www.examiner.com/missing-per...vely-identifies-man-with-salt-and-pepper-hair
http://www.examiner.com/missing-per...-would-have-taken-baby-lisa-so-who-might-have
http://www.examiner.com/missing-per...te-potential-suspect-profile-submitted-to-fbi
http://www.examiner.com/missing-per...rking-day-and-night-as-catalyst-for-baby-lisa
http://www.examiner.com/missing-per...aby-lisa-s-family?CID=examiner_alerts_article


The cadaver dog only hit on one place. Right by the bed. No where else?! Debra's clothes, the backyard (which police harped on her about not searching back there. Why would she?!) IMO It wasn't the baby's decomposing body the dog hit on.

We only know about one hit. There might have been other hits, but police are not saying. However, after critical evidence in Lisa's case was processed, the case did not get transferred to the homicide unit. IMO, whatever evidence collected from the home due to the dog hit was not enough to determine Lisa had been murdered in her home.

January 24th, 2012:

Police said the Kansas City crime lab had completed processing the critical evidence in the days and weeks after the infant went missing.
http://www.kctv5.com/story/16593021/baby-lisas-parents-making-national-television-appearance

April 4th, 2012:

Lisa’s case still is classified as a missing or abducted child. (KCPD Spokesperson) Young said at this point there is no evidence that Lisa has died.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/welcome_page/?shf=/2012/04/04/144081_six-months-later-no-new-clues.html

Kansas City police maintain that the disappearance is still classified as a missing or abducted child and the Crimes Against Children detectives - not homicide detectives - are investigating the case.

"During an investigation, there are a lot of pieces that need to be explored. Clearly the cadaver dog is public record," Young said. "Everyone knows a cadaver dog was involved. That was one of the many parts of this investigation - unless driven by more evidence the case will remain with the Crimes Against Children Unit."

http://www.kctv5.com/story/17332959/search-for-baby-lisa-irwin-grows-cold

Sondra Zink is the former lead KCPD detective on Lisa's case. September 29th, 2012:

"Zink is proud of the way police and federal agents worked seamlessly together. But she has one regret.

“The bottom line is, no matter how good the investigation is, there’s still a baby missing and we don’t know how,” she said. “There’s no way to walk away and feel good about that.”

Zink said she hoped police will be able to find Lisa alive and well even if the odds don’t favor a cheery conclusion.

“But the happy ending where we found out what happened to her and the person is punished?” she said. “I won’t give up on that.”"
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/09/29/3839049/a-year-of-questions-finds-few.html
 
So....Jersey is Tanko. Did he have access to the house he was taking care of? Was the house searched?

He was supposed to be tending to the yard, but I'm not sure if he had permission to access the house. There is also a shed in the backyard of that house. They were both likely searched. I can't find a source for that at the moment, but many houses were searched in the initial days. Tanko was known for breaking into houses. His address on court records is a house down the street from the Irwin's he had repeatedly broken into.

November 3rd 2011-

Neighbors near the baby's home said he would break into a house just a block from Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin's house and squat in the home while the owner lived out of state.

Thaer Alkhaezraji lives just a block up on North Lister from baby Lisa's home.

Alkhaezraji said he has called the police on Tanko two or three times, claiming Tanko was breaking into the house across the street.

"He caused a lot of problems," said Thaer Alkhaezraji. "We chased him one time over here but he never lived here," said Alkhaezraji.

Alkhaezraji said Tanko would break into the house through a window which could be why police were wanting to talk to him.

A window was open and screen pushed at Lisa's home the night she vanished.

According to court documents, Tanko even went as far as to list this address as his home address on court papers.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15930233/day-30-new-information-in-case-of-missing-baby

What are your thoughts on the dumpster burn? If he wasn't living in the house, where did Tanko live?

I think some sort of evidence could have been burned in the dumpster. Deborah said police showed her burnt clothes during interrogations.

Tanko was apparently homeless. Here's some more information about Jersey's whereabouts in the days and months prior to Lisa's disappearance:

October 13th 2011-

Also getting attention on Thursday was a Northland bar, the location of the last known sighting of a "handyman" known by the name of "Jersey." The owner of One-Eyed Jack's Tavern says that "Jersey" was kicked-out of the bar on October 1st for rude, drunken behavior.

Northland resident Mike Hancock, who used to rent a room to Jersey's girlfriend, says that Jersey was an occasional guest until Hancock kicked the woman out of the home near 36th and North Brighton in August for not paying rent. The home is just two doors down from one with a backyard well searched by police on Wednesday.

"He was suppose to be at a halfway house for awhile and he hadn't reported into there and they were hunting him pretty hard because he had multiple charges against from Maccaluso's. I guess he had been stealing from there and breaking into homes around the neighborhoods is what they told me," said Hancock.

Another neighbor says that police visited her a few days ago with a picture of Jersey.

"I did take Jersey down on Lister one day he said to his buddy's house where he was staying," said neighbor Barbara Hoy. The home she took Jersey to visit is across the street from the Irwin family home in the 3600 block of N. Lister.

Neighbors reported an unknown handyman in the area of the Irwin home in the days before Irwin disappeared. Police would not comment on anything related to "Jersey" or the handyman, only saying that they are following up on any and all leads in the case.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/na...search-for-baby-lisa-20111013,0,5707390.story (Sorry, this link is now broken and I cannot find another working link.)

And why would he want to check Debra's voicemail? Why would he take all 3 phones?

I don't know why Jersey would check the voice mail. Why would Deborah check the voice mail? Apparently she knew the phones were not operable. Why would Deborah call Megan Wright?

All three phones were apparently on the kitchen counter. Criminals often steal cell phones. A google search for "stolen cell phone" provides many examples of this.

And yes, I felt uneasy about Debra being unsure if she checked on Lisa but did check on the boys. But if she did have something to do with Lisa missing,.why not just say she did check on the baby at 10:40 and Lisa was fine and sleeping. Why would she lie about not remembering if she checked Lisa. Surely she knew that would put her in a bad light

Exactly. If guilty, why wouldn't she just stick with the 10:30 time as the time she last saw Lisa? Admitting she didn't remember did not benefit her in any way. IMO

It all seems fairly straightforward to me. She was drunk. She's not completely sure if she checked on her. She wasn't sure if she locked the door or turned the lights out, either. She remembers asking the boys to come to bed with her. A drunk person remembering some things and not remembering other things isn't exactly unheard of, IMO. There is at least one witness to her drinking- SB. The other neighbor, Shane, could tell they had been drinking. It can be reasonably concluded that she was at least slightly intoxicated. I don't have any experience with anxiety medication, but apparently it can heighten the effects of alcohol in some people. Maybe that was the case here. It makes sense that she doesn't remember.
 
Have been reading....too much maybe.

Observations: the nuts and stirrers of angst IMO of this tragedy are often times the do gooders. I'm sure Mr. Abeyta thought he was helping but he should have stayed home. The female attorney? What was that dramatic and self serving press conference all about?! And the police. I don't blame Debra for not wanting to go down to police HQ alone. I'd be afraid they'd put the bright lights on
me and be unpleasant. I do think she has given them everything she knows about.

What I found interesting, and I couldn't find a lot of info n it is...the detective in charge was told originally that it was a custodial dispute.

The biological mother to boy aged 8 (Rasleem Raim) has a lot to be angry about. And using Mr.
Abetya's theory......it would be someone close to them but angry. She used to live in that house! It appeared she lawyered up right away and only granted several small interviews in Marshall, MO.

So....who is boy aged 6 biological mother?! He would have been born after Jeremy's marriage to Raim. Has he been married 3 times?!

I have checked and rechecked your timeline justaskfornina. I agree. I think Lisa was taken shortly after Brando went into her house aftersmoking her last cigarette on her porch and the first phone call to pink hair's number. Someone was watching and that someone had to have been Tanko.

If so.....why only use Debra's phone? Why didn't he try the other 2? (He must have thought he hit the jackpot with 3 phones.)

Why was Lisa only in a diaper and not her jammies? He would have had to ditch those pjs somewhere.
Were those what was burned in the dumpster. Did he take them off her so she couldn't be readibly identified?

Did he hand the baby off to someone? Yes, I think so. But who? Was it one of the 8 who lived at pink hair's apartment? I'm sure they were all interviewed. Did any of them have a connection to Marshall, Mo?

Whoever ended up with the baby had to have the means to hide her, clothe her etc. How does one explain the sudden arrival of a cute but very famous red haired baby? And continue to this day to do so?

And just who is the benefactor in this whole mess? It seems that person has a ton of control..... and money. But why?

JMOs
 
Razz, the oldest boy is Jeremy's son from his marriage to Rasleen Raim. The younger boy is Deborah's child from her marriage before she met Jeremy (she was actually still legally married to the husband at the time Lisa went missing. I do not know if she has finally gotten a divorce or not).
 
Given MW's subsequent troubles with the laws involving child neglect I hope Lisa was not handed over to anyone in that household. MW presented herself as teh responsible one in a household of loafers and freeloaders who were taking advantage of her if I remember. If she was the most responsible in the household, well that is kind of scary.

But honestly, I do not think that is was where Lisa taken that night. I think she was taken by one or two people on foot. I wonder if there were two suspects if they argued over the taking of Lisa? you could hardly argue loud or long within the house. But maybe later, after leaving the house.
 
Razz, the oldest boy is Jeremy's son from his marriage to Rasleen Raim. The younger boy is Deborah's child from her marriage before she met Jeremy (she was actually still legally married to the husband at the time Lisa went missing. I do not know if she has finally gotten a divorce or not).

Oh. I am sure this was all hashed out somewhere on the thread. But...does anyone know why this was originally classified (per lead detective) as a custodial dispute?
 
When I read the most recent Daily Mail story a couple of weeks ago, I really did not believe the parents. However, I remained intrigued and read more on this case, and the more I did, the more I believed them.

I think there were possibly two men involved and that this was a planned abduction...One (described as the first individual that was seen carrying the baby at approximately 12:15 AM) and the second one (the one seen at approximately 4:15 AM by MT on his motorcycle). Although dressed similar, other aspects differed which made it sound like two men...one the abductor - the one who would likely be lower end of the hierarchy and has to do the "dirty" work in the abduction, and the other one, possibly the actual broker - the "boss" who was the one in control, who helped plan some of the necessary precautions and to keep the job as "professional" as possible (do not bring a car near the house, cut the phone wires or take the phones, dress inconspicuously, do not take the baby with her clothes on for identification purposes, do not contact him, the broker in charge, or anyone else using the abductor's own phone) and the one who took over the fate of the baby when she was passed onto him.

I think there could have been a vehicle used to get around without being seen by others, and if so, that vehicle would not be in the immediate vicinity of LI's home. The streets look quite narrow there (on Google Maps) with people having their own driveways. A car parked there would stand out. The abductor would risk someone possibly waking up with an engine being started, not to mention any pedestrians and home owners having a general description of the car and the worse case scenario: The licence plate number. And experienced, savvy individuals want to avoid specific information given in an Amber Alert. If he indeed used a car, it would have to have blended in with other cars,possibly near the town house location where he was seen heading. North Brighton Avenue leads right to the 210 Expressway. That direction also leads to heavily wooded areas which could provide a good cover to hide while waiting to meet your boss.

The abduction seemed very smooth, didn't it? With exception to the 12:15 AM possible sighting, it seemed to go off without a hitch and seemed to be very well-timed. Just a coincidence? Just luck? Looking at the actual home on Google Maps and the immediate neighboring homes, I swung to the east to look at houses directly across from LI's home, and just behind those homes is an incline with trees and bushes, with the next set of homes behind it, which is the street for the first sighting. A perfect vantage spot to watch the home to see who is coming and going, if JI's service truck was at the front, and when the lights go out. I'm wondering if he could see and hear everything going on? And I wonder if the police ever checked that? Under the premise that it was him who was seen at 12:15 AM on route to the town houses (to avoid going up the incline and falling with a baby causing her to start wailing), then he likely came from there as well. All he would need to do is cross through the property the handyman was working on, cross the street, cut through a property, crouch in the bushes, and monitor the home.I wonder if DB, SB, or any of the others felt like they were being watched? If you are working on a high paying, high stakes baby black market job, you cannot just show up to the ballgame.

Let's imagine that this was a kidnapping for black market purposes, a very, very lucrative market with wealthy couples paying very large amounts, which is my argument here. I imagine you would need to be working with some kind of deadline or time frame after a "demand" for a baby presents itself. You would need to select your neighborhood (low security, enough potential suspects, easily "blameworthy" individuals) and then case the area to see what babies are where, if that is not already known. So, in the preceding two to three weeks, was there anything out of place or just odd in terms of someone casing the area? Did any males given DB compliments on her baby as she was out walking around or sitting outside? Did anyone chit chat with her? Did anyone ask her if her husband was around to help them fix something in order to find out his schedule? Was it a work acquaintance of the father who knew his schedule, someone linked to his day job? Did anyone posing as a workman or serviceman ask entrance to the home to "check" something or look through windows from the outside?

Looking at the official LI website, I was disappointed not to see sketches of the two men anywhere there or on the actual missing posters, or a mention of them that I could find..The two men probably are tight and work in a unit together and may be recognized as a unit, especially if one was tall and thin, and the other one on the older side. One may have had bad debts and agreed to do this job; he might be a very cold type of person who justifies his actions with "The mother deserved what she got/She was asking for this"), and maybe even had a bit of a temper (maybe he got upset and took the street route with the baby without realizing the risk for being seen and maybe didn't stick to a different pre-arranged plan). The other, however, might not appear to be "the type" to be involved in this kind of theft. He might appear respectable and trustworthy enough so that the family who she was adopted out to really would believe what they were told by him (born to a teenage mother who had to give her up, etc).

Fissures can appear in any relationship, at any time, and someone may rethink things and come forward, especially if they suspect someone or are withholding vital information. I hope the parents stay patient and stay the course.
 
We only know about one hit. There might have been other hits, but police are not saying. However, after critical evidence in Lisa's case was processed, the case did not get transferred to the homicide unit. IMO, whatever evidence collected from the home due to the dog hit was not enough to determine Lisa had been murdered in her home.

this too is a bit misleading. the KCPD homicide unit investigates all deaths, not just murder. an accidental death would fit many of the scenarios discussed.

http://kcmo.gov/police/homicide-3/
 
Police have not publicly identified any suspects or persons of interest. However, police and the couple's attorneys admit that police have been unable to clear Lisa's parents.

Read more: http://www.kctv5.com/story/17332959/search-for-baby-lisa-irwin-grows-cold#ixzz3OBCS2wwk


But Bradley was evasive and lied in public interviews about her actions in the hours before Lisa was reported missing.

Read more: http://www.kctv5.com/story/17332959/search-for-baby-lisa-irwin-grows-cold#ixzz3OBCXMp5D


Bradley claimed that she had been drinking enough that night to black out and that she in fact saw her sick daughter last at 6:30 p.m. Oct. 3, 2011, and did not follow the family's normal nighttime routine. She also could not, or would not, answer key questions about that night.

Read more: http://www.kctv5.com/story/17332959/search-for-baby-lisa-irwin-grows-cold#ixzz3OBCmg8VF


However, when police sought on Oct. 18, 2011 a search warrant for the home on Lister, police listed the items that they wanted to seize. Three blocks were checked.
The last one checked said the extensive search would include seeking "deceased human fetus or corpse."
 
Given MW's subsequent troubles with the laws involving child neglect I hope Lisa was not handed over to anyone in that household. MW presented herself as teh responsible one in a household of loafers and freeloaders who were taking advantage of her if I remember. If she was the most responsible in the household, well that is kind of scary.

But honestly, I do not think that is was where Lisa taken that night. I think she was taken by one or two people on foot. I wonder if there were two suspects if they argued over the taking of Lisa? you could hardly argue loud or long within the house. But maybe later, after leaving the house.

Links regarding Megan's November 2013 arrest for endangering the welfare of a child:

http://www.stjoechannel.com/story/d...nourished-infant/14799/33xbMW1Wpkiknj_2agyptg
http://fox4kc.com/2013/11/15/st-joseph-woman-charged-with-endangering-the-welfare-of-child/
 
this too is a bit misleading. the KCPD homicide unit investigates all deaths, not just murder. an accidental death would fit many of the scenarios discussed.

http://kcmo.gov/police/homicide-3/

Well, ok. Then why not bring it before the grand jury? I read your links (the same one 4 times) and there is nothing new or anything that rings alarm bells. I suspect family warned Debra about her drinking. Who wants to admit that they were so blotto they forgot to check on their child and that
those who warned her were right. She's been swimming in the river of denial. But, in her favor, she has pretty much fessed up to it.

And as far as not attending the balloon ceremony, she has other things to take care of. Namely, her 2 boys.

JM 2 cents O
 
It was her own child...I did some googling and turned up another thread here on WS that discusses it, but I can't link it from my Tapatalk app, sorry!
 
Well, ok. Then why not bring it before the grand jury? I read your links (the same one 4 times) and there is nothing new or anything that rings alarm bells. I suspect family warned Debra about her drinking. Who wants to admit that they were so blotto they forgot to check on their child and that
those who warned her were right. She's been swimming in the river of denial. But, in her favor, she has pretty much fessed up to it.

And as far as not attending the balloon ceremony, she has other things to take care of. Namely, her 2 boys.

1)nina supplied the link... i pulled out relevant info she chose to not highlight
2)you'd have to ask the DA/KCPD in MI about their decisions regarding GJs ;)
3)she only "fessed up" after police found a receipt for the wine in the house and then caught her on video buying wine the day lisa "disappeared"... doubt she would've done this if the two events hadn't occurred. again, if one is innocent, one doesn't need to hide anything. her lying by omission speaks volumes to many following this case. kinda like casey anthony ;)
4)i never mentioned anything about a balloon ceremony
 
1)nina supplied the link... i pulled out relevant info she chose to not highlight
2)you'd have to ask the DA/KCPD in MI about their decisions regarding GJs ;)
3)she only "fessed up" after police found a receipt for the wine in the house and then caught her on video buying wine the day lisa "disappeared"... doubt she would've done this if the two events hadn't occurred. again, if one is innocent, one doesn't need to hide anything. her lying by omission speaks volumes to many following this case. kinda like casey anthony ;)
4)i never mentioned anything about a balloon ceremony

I hear you and I do see where you are coming from.
Knowing those who have/had drinking problems, they will go to great lengths to hide it if they know you disapprove, but it doesn't make them horrible people. (And I can safely say, (but it's jmo) Ms Anthony was a horrible person from the get go. :-)

Since following this for the past week and not from the beginning I have not been privvy to all the discussions. And...not having paid much attention to it over the past 3 years, I figured she was guilty.
But.....after looking at it over the past week, I don't see it. And I figure everyone is a suspect until they have enough proof to put the cuffs on someone.

I think we all want the same thing. Find baby Lisa and/or make sure the perpetrator(s) get what they deserve.
 

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