GUILTY MO - Nicholas, 35, & Justin Diemel, 24, brothers missing, Clinton County, 21 July 2019 *ARREST* #2

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I could not remember when it was said the calves were left at Fosters, but 5-6 month old calves in May would indicate calves born in November or December. I believe I read somewhere on here that the agreement began in November. If they were delivered shortly after that they would have been only a few days old. Anyone who has ever raised a larger group of bottle calves will tell you that sometimes it can be very challenging keeping them alive and growing.

Thank you for this information. If bottle/bucket calves have such a hard time surviving, why have winter temperatures as an additional stress? The cold temperatures would mean that there would need to be an increase their daily caloric/nutritional intake to maintain their body temperature, right? Why not just wait and have the calves born in the springtime, after the colder temperatures wouldn't be such a stress? Sounds like the breeding is done by artificial insemination mostly, IMO. Even if it breeding were done naturally, the time the bull spends with the breeding stock can be controlled, right?

Just trying to understand why someone would choose to start out with newly-born calves needing bottle/bucket feeding at the onset of winter instead of starting in the spring.
 
Just as a point of reference. We they were discussing once the weening of the calves was complete means, Cows and calves together for this time period. JMO
That confused me too, but earlier in the interview Foster says the calves would be sold "when they got to weaning weight", not when they were weaned. When he later says “It came time to be due for them to be weaned", I don't think he meant that the calves would literally be weaned off a cow at that time, but that it would be at the time when a beef calf would normally have been weaned from the cow, which is usually sometime between 5 and 7 months.

I saw no mention that JN had cow calf pairs on his place, so I sincerely doubt he was entrusted with the care of the cows too. It is mentioned in the information posted by Indicolite22 that the calves appeared to have dairy influence. Dairy cows must give birth in order to come into milk, but the calf is a liability from thereon. The first milk of the cow is extremely rich in fats and contains colostrum which is needed by the calf to build up immunity. The calves are fed that first milk (hopefully), but are then fed a product called milk-replacer. It is like dry milk and is mixed with warm water to provide food for the suckling calf.
 
Thank you for this information. If bottle/bucket calves have such a hard time surviving, why have winter temperatures as an additional stress? The cold temperatures would mean that there would need to be an increase their daily caloric/nutritional intake to maintain their body temperature, right? Why not just wait and have the calves born in the springtime, after the colder temperatures wouldn't be such a stress? Sounds like the breeding is done by artificial insemination mostly, IMO. Even if it breeding were done naturally, the time the bull spends with the breeding stock can be controlled, right?

Just trying to understand why someone would choose to start out with newly-born calves needing bottle/bucket feeding at the onset of winter instead of starting in the spring.
These calves were most likely born to dairy cows as I explained above. A dairy cow is bred so that she will have milk. Dairy cows are generally housed year around and the outside temperature has little to do with when she calves. Gestation for a cow is 9 months and the cow will increase in milk production for the first 3 to 4 months after she gives birth and she will usually be milked for about 305 days. Cows are usually re-bred 2-3 months after giving birth so that she will have a calf about every 365 days. In the last 60 days cows are dried up. They are no longer milked and therefore feed is reduced. When she gives birth the process begins again. The time of year has little to do with this schedule and calves are born year around. The goal is to have a constant number of cows milking and producing a uniform amount of milk. That means having cows at all different points in this cycle. When a cow does not get pregnant in a reasonable time she is culled and replaced with another. The calves themselves are almost an inconvenience for the dairy. Very few dairies are set up to raise those calves and therefore most are sold. The dairy is concerned with milk production so calving all cows in the Spring would not work.

It is different with cattle raised for beef. Those calves stay on their mother until they are at least 5-7 months old. Most raising beef will calve at a time that has suitable weather. It is also desirable to be able to sell in large lots of similar size, color and sex. Therefore most successful ranchers leave the bulls in for a relatively short period of time so that all calves are born over just a few months. Cows not confirmed pregnant after bull removal can be sold so that you are not feeding open cows through the winter.
 
As a cattle producer, I have been interested in following the thread on this horrible situation. I can't imagine losing someone like this, especially to another farmer/rancher. We do tend to trust each other more than the average city raised person can understand, so I see how JN was able to get away with his business dealings without others being aware of his past.
I keep seeing people post things about JN selling the Diemels cattle to Foster, but if you listen to the Foster interview you will see that Foster originally purchased those calves for JN to raise. JN was to provide the labor and the feed. Foster apparently believed they could sell these calves at a profit which they would split.

https://www.kctv5.com/.../article_e027ac90-b91b-11e9-aa86-cb91c253c23c.html
interview with Foster

Quotes from the article:
"“Our arrangement was that I was going to purchase the calves,” Foster said. “He was going to feed and raise them and when they got to weaning weight, we were going to sell them and split the profit.”
“It came time to be due for them to be weaned and sold and he was coming up with all these excuses and stories as to why he hadn't sold them,” Foster said.

Instead, Nelson showed up at Foster’s dairy with roughly 35 of the 131 cattle and dropped them off in one of his pastures."


The calves were purchased from Diemel by Foster with an agreement that Nelson would feed and raise them to about 500 to 600 pounds or typical weaning weights. I believe I saw where this arrangement was begun in November and the remaining calves were dropped off at Fosters in late June or early July. That would indicate JN had those calves for about 7 months, or the normal weaning age of a beef calf.

That leads me to believe the calves JN received to raise were bottle calves and probably only a few days old. The most likely source of calves that young would be from a Dairy. In the past most dairies bred all of their cows to dairy bulls to make replacements. Now, with sexed semen available, many dairies use artificial insemination to breed only their best cows to dairy bulls using female semen, and breed the rest to beef bulls using male semen. All calves are removed from the cow shortly after birth and fed milk-replacer from a bottle or bucket. The beef cross calves are often sold to others. I think Diemels may have had the connections to Wisconsin dairy farms and were able to provide the calves purchased by Foster to be raised by JN. If JN was able to convince Diemels that he had been successful in turning a profit raising bottle calves, they may have agreed to let him raise other calves they provided with their own money.

The problem with bottle calves is that they are notoriously difficult to keep alive and even more difficult to make a profit on. They need to drink a quality milk replacer at $80 or more for a 50-pound bag for 6 to 8 weeks. It may be cheaper in the Midwest, but it isn’t cheap anywhere. They must be fed multiple times per day and may go through several bags of replacer before they are eating enough solid food to wean off the replacer. They must be weaned onto high quality expensive feed & forage in order to gain an acceptable amount by the time they reach normal weaning weight. If everything goes perfect and you don’t consider your time of much value, you may sell them for more than what it cost you to get them to that weight. With any calves you should expect to lose some to death, and with bottle calves the death loss is usually much higher. Once you have a few calves show up with scours (diarrhea) it can quickly move through the whole herd with catastrophic affects. Losing 96 out of 135 is certainly not unheard of, and may not be JN’s fault. Another problem is that unless you disinfect everything those sick calves came in contact with, future calves are at risk. Wood is a common component of most barns and is near impossible to disinfect. While JN may be unskilled at raising bottle calves and that could be the reason for the high death loss, it is also possible he had a virus, bacteria or parasite that wiped out those calves in spite of them getting the best of care. I am actually surprised that Foster, as a former dairyman, would have taken the risk of trying to make money on bottle calves. JN must have given him a good sales-pitch.
Thank you for this post as well as the others. This is intriguing information!!
 
I missed that the Diemel family runs a dairy. Foster's use of the term "wean" in terms of when to sell seems to support this fact/theory. But ... i have a few questions about the timeframe. First, remind me about the USDA report. Do i remember correctly that one concern was that the cattle appeared to be the size of 5 month old calves ... with Foster concerned about them being stunted? This would lead me to believe that they were actually older. Second, Foster talks about how Diemels and him (and others?) all had similar concerns about all JN's excuses for not getting the cattle sold. This made me think that cattle were older than they believed be optimal for sale....? Perhaps Foster used "weaned" based on his own dairy-vocabulary...meaning "sales ready" which would be at "wean" weight in his world. I am not suggesting foster is lying or stupid....just nervous and reverting to known language vs precise wording? (Or maybe i just missed where the diemel biz is dairy)
 
I answered my own question. It looks like Diemel Livestock LLC advertised 2 types of calves for sale in November. I don't know whether we can post from facebook? I know normally we cannot .. so i will just point in that direction. That is where they advertised calves for sale at that time....some were wee baby dairy cross, some were older. Seems to support cow/calf's post above.

Did Diemels then also entrust their own unsold calves to JN? if the risks are well known....why didnt JN just come clean when problems started? What a mess.
 
I missed that the Diemel family runs a dairy. Foster's use of the term "wean" in terms of when to sell seems to support this fact/theory. But ... i have a few questions about the timeframe. First, remind me about the USDA report. Do i remember correctly that one concern was that the cattle appeared to be the size of 5 month old calves ... with Foster concerned about them being stunted? This would lead me to believe that they were actually older. Second, Foster talks about how Diemels and him (and others?) all had similar concerns about all JN's excuses for not getting the cattle sold. This made me think that cattle were older than they believed be optimal for sale....? Perhaps Foster used "weaned" based on his own dairy-vocabulary...meaning "sales ready" which would be at "wean" weight in his world. I am not suggesting foster is lying or stupid....just nervous and reverting to known language vs precise wording? (Or maybe i just missed where the diemel biz is dairy)
From the USDA report: "Calves appear to be under weight and size for 5-6 month old calves". I understand that as the calves actually being 5-6 months old.
Kansas farmer shares details about man connected to disappearance of two missing brothers from Wisconsin

It would appear that bottle fed calves are weaned earlier:
How to Wean a Bottle Fed Calf
 
These calves were most likely born to dairy cows as I explained above. A dairy cow is bred so that she will have milk. Dairy cows are generally housed year around and the outside temperature has little to do with when she calves. Gestation for a cow is 9 months and the cow will increase in milk production for the first 3 to 4 months after she gives birth and she will usually be milked for about 305 days. Cows are usually re-bred 2-3 months after giving birth so that she will have a calf about every 365 days. In the last 60 days cows are dried up. They are no longer milked and therefore feed is reduced. When she gives birth the process begins again. The time of year has little to do with this schedule and calves are born year around. The goal is to have a constant number of cows milking and producing a uniform amount of milk. That means having cows at all different points in this cycle. When a cow does not get pregnant in a reasonable time she is culled and replaced with another. The calves themselves are almost an inconvenience for the dairy. Very few dairies are set up to raise those calves and therefore most are sold. The dairy is concerned with milk production so calving all cows in the Spring would not work.

It is different with cattle raised for beef. Those calves stay on their mother until they are at least 5-7 months old. Most raising beef will calve at a time that has suitable weather. It is also desirable to be able to sell in large lots of similar size, color and sex. Therefore most successful ranchers leave the bulls in for a relatively short period of time so that all calves are born over just a few months. Cows not confirmed pregnant after bull removal can be sold so that you are not feeding open cows through the winter.

Thanks for explaining that!
 
These calves were most likely born to dairy cows as I explained above. A dairy cow is bred so that she will have milk. Dairy cows are generally housed year around and the outside temperature has little to do with when she calves. Gestation for a cow is 9 months and the cow will increase in milk production for the first 3 to 4 months after she gives birth and she will usually be milked for about 305 days. Cows are usually re-bred 2-3 months after giving birth so that she will have a calf about every 365 days. In the last 60 days cows are dried up. They are no longer milked and therefore feed is reduced. When she gives birth the process begins again. The time of year has little to do with this schedule and calves are born year around. The goal is to have a constant number of cows milking and producing a uniform amount of milk. That means having cows at all different points in this cycle. When a cow does not get pregnant in a reasonable time she is culled and replaced with another. The calves themselves are almost an inconvenience for the dairy. Very few dairies are set up to raise those calves and therefore most are sold. The dairy is concerned with milk production so calving all cows in the Spring would not work.

It is different with cattle raised for beef. Those calves stay on their mother until they are at least 5-7 months old. Most raising beef will calve at a time that has suitable weather. It is also desirable to be able to sell in large lots of similar size, color and sex. Therefore most successful ranchers leave the bulls in for a relatively short period of time so that all calves are born over just a few months. Cows not confirmed pregnant after bull removal can be sold so that you are not feeding open cows through the winter.
Thank you for your most informative posts! One question - If raising these calves is so difficult, is it typical to have insurance on them?
 
Thank you for your most informative posts! One question - If raising these calves is so difficult, is it typical to have insurance on them?

Not where we are from. Insurance doesn’t insure for general loss. Catastrophic loss, such as a natural disaster (tornado), or maybe a herd wide disease, but we lost a large number of calves this winter during a blizzard and insurance would not offer any replacement on them. We have a cow/calf heard, not all bottle calves, but I’d assume it’s the same.
 
Not where we are from. Insurance doesn’t insure for general loss. Catastrophic loss, such as a natural disaster (tornado), or maybe a herd wide disease, but we lost a large number of calves this winter during a blizzard and insurance would not offer any replacement on them. We have a cow/calf heard, not all bottle calves, but I’d assume it’s the same.
Has it been confirmed that these were bottle calves he was raising ? I would assume everyone’s insurance is different. We have a herd covered under our farm policy. We’ve had calves struck by lightning and one drowned, all were covered on our farm policy.
 
Has it been confirmed that these were bottle calves he was raising ? I would assume everyone’s insurance is different. We have a herd covered under our farm policy. We’ve had calves struck by lightning and one drowned, all were covered on our farm policy.
Please update me here. Has it been stated anywhere that these calves were being bottle fed? Are we assuming something based off of the statements from Foster and the age of the cattle dropped off by JN at foster place. The post are good here and appreciate them. Makes me look deeper. TSF is most likely in protection mode not only for JN but for TSF farm. IMO.
 
It’s been mentioned in a couple different posts. That’s why I posted, my question to the group is were they bottle calves???

Thank you for this information. If bottle/bucket calves have such a hard time surviving, why have winter temperatures as an additional stress? The cold temperatures would mean that there would need to be an increase their daily caloric/nutritional intake to maintain their body temperature, right? Why not just wait and have the calves born in the springtime, after the colder temperatures wouldn't be such a stress? Sounds like the breeding is done by artificial insemination mostly, IMO. Even if it breeding were done naturally, the time the bull spends with the breeding stock can be controlled, right?

Just trying to understand why someone would choose to start out with newly-born calves needing bottle/bucket feeding at the onset of winter instead of starting in the spring.
 
Please update me here. Has it been stated anywhere that these calves were being bottle fed? Are we assuming something based off of the statements from Foster and the age of the cattle dropped off by JN at foster place. The post are good here and appreciate them. Makes me look deeper. TSF is most likely in protection mode not only for JN but for TSF farm. IMO.

Yes this is based off of the Foster interview. In addition, you can search Diemel's Livestock for their "ad" posts on their business page on Facebook from last fall. You will find them advertising large groups of bottle/bucket calves for sale. Seems to all line up.
 
Yes this is based off of the Foster interview. In addition, you can search Diemel's Livestock for their "ad" posts on their business page on Facebook from last fall. You will find them advertising large groups of bottle/bucket calves for sale. Seems to all line up.
Thank you for the post. I have just watched the video of the foster interview again. No where does it state bottle feeding of the calves. Do we have a document that states this? Since the health state of the cattle dropped off at Fosters by JN this really hits me, shame on JN and TSF. No protector here just attempting to understand how this can happen. Farmer's normally work together to accomplish most everything. Trust is very important and old school farming was to barter between farmers. Some of this does still exist but getting less common. A way to help each other out. JMO
 
My apologies, I forgot to ask if we have more than one video from Foster. Knowing me I could of missed something. In respect for your post and response. We all work together and ask questions. No ill intent in my post, I am just trying to piece this together with facts even though we all have opinions and assumptions. Thank You.
 

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