Found Deceased MO - Toni Anderson, 20, North Kansas City, 15 Jan 2017 #6

[thekarmabus]

Yeah, "The real reason," I have been planning to take another break from this case starting tonight anyway. Toni has been found. I'm not sure there is any benefit to pushing any particular theory at this point, frankly. There is a certain issue I am very passionate about, but I'm not sure this forum is the place to push it. I've had weeks to think about it, but I'm still not sure what is the right or wrong thing to do regarding this issue.

Contrary to most others, apparently, I have a lot of faith in law enforcement. Yeah, sometimes they screw up royally. But the majority of the time, from what I've seen, they get it right. Right now I mainly want to just wait and see what law enforcement determines. I suspect it will take months before they release a verdict. There is toxicology to wait for, and it seems to me they would be remiss not to analyze her phone, if they did, in fact, find it with her.

After reading Toni's tumblr and twitter at great length, I really feel like I knew her. I feel like I got a good sense of what she was all about. She had a good heart. I am deeply saddened by Toni's passing. I was hoping beyond hope that somehow she would be found alive.

Josh Helmuth posted a message from Pete. It reads, in part: (source)

"[...] I'd like to publicly say sorry to the Andersons for not protecting their daughter. I'm sorry. I'll miss Toni, she was the love of my life and I can't see myself without her. I'll never get to see her in a wedding dress. We talked about having children later in life, now I'll never get to know what they'll look like. [...]"

This will no doubt be difficult for all those who loved Toni to get over. The world has lost a beautiful soul.

Was heartfelt from Pete. Whatever he believes was the cause of her death he feels partly at fault. Sorry for not protecting their daughter, followed by another sorry.
I'm in no way stating he is... it just reads with sadness and him wishing he could have done more.


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[MaxManning]

Was heartfelt from Pete. Whatever he believes was the cause of her death he feels partly at fault. Sorry for not protecting their daughter, followed by another sorry.
I'm in no way stating he is... it just reads with sadness and him wishing he could have done more.


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Certainly the words were right, as he comes off empathetic for the parents.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

I haven't been able to keep up with the speed of this thread. Can someone tell me whether it was ever determined that Toni WAS actually stopped by the police TWICE that night?

 

[kanzz]

I believe we should check the facts. The police have not offered a "press conference.". They have provided a few answers to media questions in the initial stages when the facts were still coming in and took part in a heavily edited television show as well as a interview with the local newspaper. I find much of the speculation of cover up, police incompetence, and crazy theory provided to the family to be extremely offensive. Toni's parents may be from a small town, but they are not fools. They are bright loving and caring people that have the intellectual ability to process information provided to them and accept it , or deny it as truth. To act as if they have no idea what is going on is to to insinuate they are naive and foolish which they are not. When I began to read these posts I was intrigued. I wondered whether they were brilliant minds out there that might provide new perspectives based on facts and research. I am rather impressed with a few of you. Having no information, you seemed to be on the right track. As for the majority, I do not feel the same. Many have taken urban legend or facebook posts as fact. This is supposed to be a group or researchers, not story tellers. Please give Toni's parents some credit that they can understand what has happened here. They have been receiving two months of police intelligence and feel that they have a solid grasp on what transpired and ultimately was the tragic death of a sweet young woman who was just trying to find her way in this world. I understand this post may be blocked. So be it. I cannot stand silent on the sidelines any longer.

Thanks so much for this. I absolutely trust all of what you say and have believed this to be an accident since Toni was found - which isn't exactly like me. I'm often prone to suspicion.

The one thing that is nagging at me is the lack of adequate signage alongside the road and on the road leading up to the boat dock. (I guess I'm assuming that's where she went in). I see this as negligence on the part of the parks &/or road department. No street that ends in water should be left unmarked like that.

Maybe Toni's Law could be enacted to get this park adequately marked, as well as all other places where something like this might occur. It's something to think about.

Rest well, Toni.

 

[StPauliGirlK]

Someone sent in a tip and they were allegedly told no more tips were needed because the case was closed.

Some aspect of the case may be closed, like the tip line, but the KCPD case won't be closed until they get toxicology, and that typically takes a long time. They never close cases until all results are in.

https://twitter.com/Jhelmuth/status/842585898420064257

Josh Helmuth‏
Some have asked me because there's been some confusion from public. KCPD confirms the Toni Anderson case is still open at this time.

 

[Miigo]

I'm new here, so forgive me if I'm not replying properly, just wanted to say re: tonis making more money when she pretends to be drunk... I was a shooter girl in a strip club years ago. We were only allowed to drink 1 shot an hour, so we had our very own marked bottles we poured from when men bought us shots, I'd opt for either vodka, in which was water, or iced tea in a rum bottle, and keep the $5. Not that tonis drinking habits matter now, but it's possible she was doing something similar, and thats what she meant by pretending to be drunk

 

[MaxManning]

I believe we should check the facts. The police have not offered a "press conference.". They have provided a few answers to media questions in the initial stages when the facts were still coming in and took part in a heavily edited television show as well as a interview with the local newspaper. I find much of the speculation of cover up, police incompetence, and crazy theory provided to the family to be extremely offensive. Toni's parents may be from a small town, but they are not fools. They are bright loving and caring people that have the intellectual ability to process information provided to them and accept it , or deny it as truth. To act as if they have no idea what is going on is to to insinuate they are naive and foolish which they are not. When I began to read these posts I was intrigued. I wondered whether they were brilliant minds out there that might provide new perspectives based on facts and research. I am rather impressed with a few of you. Having no information, you seemed to be on the right track. As for the majority, I do not feel the same. Many have taken urban legend or facebook posts as fact. This is supposed to be a group or researchers, not story tellers. Please give Toni's parents some credit that they can understand what has happened here. They have been receiving two months of police intelligence and feel that they have a solid grasp on what transpired and ultimately was the tragic death of a sweet young woman who was just trying to find her way in this world. I understand this post may be blocked. So be it. I cannot stand silent on the sidelines any longer.

Lots of missing persons in KC. Their crimes agains children unit was called out just this past fall for negligence and failing to investigate cases :


http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article101962597.html

for years, Kansas City police detectives failed to properly investigate some rapes, serious abuse and other crimes against the city’s children. And in many instances, detectives did no work at all, internal police department memos recently obtained by The Star reveal.

It's not urban legend, it actually happened. This is actual MSM news :

The department’s own memos describe 148 “severely mishandled” cases, “gross negligence,” “incompetence” and evidence of attempts to “cover up.”

I get that there is some facebook stuff out there that is from every different angle, but I just think you might want to at least consider the reality of the KCPD and it's track record. It's not infallible. The parents that were perpetrated in these factual accounts, were likely every bit as smart as the Andersons, so it's not about their intelligence. That's not in question.

What answers questions, is actual answers. Not just saying "we got it all under control".


So not sure what posts you were referring to, and I apologize if some were way out in left field that I missed. But I don't think the police get to take police incompetence off the table, when recent history shows it's been a *proven* systemic problem in KCMO.

They are not stories, except maybe stories of reason for healthy skepticism.

 

[Jerrod]

I believe we should check the facts. The police have not offered a "press conference.". They have provided a few answers to media questions in the initial stages when the facts were still coming in and took part in a heavily edited television show as well as a interview with the local newspaper. I find much of the speculation of cover up, police incompetence, and crazy theory provided to the family to be extremely offensive. Toni's parents may be from a small town, but they are not fools. They are bright loving and caring people that have the intellectual ability to process information provided to them and accept it , or deny it as truth. To act as if they have no idea what is going on is to to insinuate they are naive and foolish which they are not. When I began to read these posts I was intrigued. I wondered whether they were brilliant minds out there that might provide new perspectives based on facts and research. I am rather impressed with a few of you. Having no information, you seemed to be on the right track. As for the majority, I do not feel the same. Many have taken urban legend or facebook posts as fact. This is supposed to be a group or researchers, not story tellers. Please give Toni's parents some credit that they can understand what has happened here. They have been receiving two months of police intelligence and feel that they have a solid grasp on what transpired and ultimately was the tragic death of a sweet young woman who was just trying to find her way in this world. I understand this post may be blocked. So be it. I cannot stand silent on the sidelines any longer.

If this is true, maybe you'd care to tell us why Toni's mom at one point was insistent that Toni was a victim of human trafficking. And maybe you can enlighten us as to why "police intelligence" reported early on that they were "99% certain" that Toni's disappearance was NOT the result of an accident. (Well, I guess there's always that 1%.)

Also, when you say some of us "seemed to be on the right track", you're implying you're holding cards the rest of us can't see, so please provide a link to the irrefutable evidence you have as to what exactly happened to Toni that night.

 

[AceDetective]

Ace, trust me you do not know Toni unless you knew her. I have several example of people I know who put on a great face on social media. Wimpy men who appear to be tough guys. Good girls who pretend to be bad. One women, neighbor, in particular casts a web of lies on social media so convincing I started to think the police I see at her house ever week was an illusion.
Rule one of social media...no one is who they pretend to be.

I learned this lesson online back in 1997 or so. This isn't my first rodeo.

 

[n_6CC]

I believe we should check the facts. The police have not offered a "press conference.". They have provided a few answers to media questions in the initial stages when the facts were still coming in and took part in a heavily edited television show as well as a interview with the local newspaper. I find much of the speculation of cover up, police incompetence, and crazy theory provided to the family to be extremely offensive. Toni's parents may be from a small town, but they are not fools. They are bright loving and caring people that have the intellectual ability to process information provided to them and accept it , or deny it as truth. To act as if they have no idea what is going on is to to insinuate they are naive and foolish which they are not. When I began to read these posts I was intrigued. I wondered whether they were brilliant minds out there that might provide new perspectives based on facts and research. I am rather impressed with a few of you. Having no information, you seemed to be on the right track. As for the majority, I do not feel the same. Many have taken urban legend or facebook posts as fact. This is supposed to be a group or researchers, not story tellers. Please give Toni's parents some credit that they can understand what has happened here. They have been receiving two months of police intelligence and feel that they have a solid grasp on what transpired and ultimately was the tragic death of a sweet young woman who was just trying to find her way in this world. I understand this post may be blocked. So be it. I cannot stand silent on the sidelines any longer.

I am lost here- from what I have read, I haven't seen posts about Toni's parents being incompetent. We are all here trying to make sense of This sweet woman's untimely death in a set of very strange circumstances. I appreciate your opinion, and with that being said, am wondering why you are picking apart others opinions. There are people on here that are bothered by the lack of, or should I say conflicting statements. There are a lot of things in this particular case that are totally unanswered and do not make any sense. There are a lot of facts that were reported, that came out later were invalid! What some might feel is relevant, may not be to another person on here. So long story short, while I appreciate your opinion, there are others on here (including myself) that are fact checking and double fact checking- this is a forum to discuss Toni 's case. You can scroll through what you may not be interested in. To blast out your disgust of what others deem important on a discussion forum such as this, to me, is a little uncalled for. In fact, I think you would find that most of the people following this case from day 1, felt as if they knew Toni, That they liked her spirit and her excitement of life. I might add that the posts I actively read and don't just pass, are ones that haven't bashed Toni's parents at all. I think we can all try to imagine what a mother and what father might go through and think in these situations. In fact, when others are weak and mourning (not a negative description) there needs to be others that can be strong and steadfast. That's what I see here. Thx


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[n_6CC]

If this is true, maybe you'd care to tell us why Toni's mom at one point was insistent that Toni was a victim of human trafficking. And maybe you can enlighten us as to why "police intelligence" reported early on that they were "99% certain" that Toni's disappearance was NOT the result of an accident. (Well, I guess there's always that 1%.)

Also, when you say some of us "seemed to be on the right track", you're implying you're holding cards the rest of us can't see, so please provide a link to the irrefutable evidence you have as to what exactly happened to Toni that night.

Quoted wrong post
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[cnmccarthy]

Lots of missing persons in KC. Their crimes agains children unit was called out just this past fall for negligence and failing to investigate cases :


http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article101962597.html



It's not urban legend, it actually happened. This is actual MSM news :



I get that there is some facebook stuff out there that is from every different angle, but I just think you might want to at least consider the reality of the KCPD and it's track record. It's not infallible. The parents that were perpetrated in these factual accounts, were likely every bit as smart as the Andersons, so it's not about their intelligence. That's not in question.

What answers questions, is actual answers. Not just saying "we got it all under control".


So not sure what posts you were referring to, and I apologize if some were way out in left field that I missed. But I don't think the police get to take police incompetence off the table, when recent history shows it's been a *proven* systemic problem in KCMO.

They are not stories, except maybe stories of reason for healthy skepticism.

Thank you for this.


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[cnmccarthy]

I am lost here- from what I have read, I haven't seen posts about Toni's parents being incompetent. We are all here trying to make sense of This sweet woman's untimely death in a set of very strange circumstances. I appreciate your opinion, and with that being said, am wondering why you are picking apart others opinions. There are people on here that are bothered by the lack of, or should I say conflicting statements. There are a lot of things in this particular case that are totally unanswered and do not make any sense. There are a lot of facts that were reported, that came out later were invalid! What some might feel is relevant, may not be to another person on here. So long story short, while I appreciate your opinion, there are others on here (including myself) that are fact checking and double fact checking- this is a forum to discuss Toni 's case. You can scroll through what you may not be interested in. To blast out your disgust of what others deem important on a discussion forum such as this, to me, is a little uncalled for. In fact, I think you would find that most of the people following this case from day 1, felt as if they knew Toni, That they liked her spirit and her excitement of life. I might add that the posts I actively read and don't just pass, are ones that haven't bashed Toni's parents at all. I think we can all try to imagine what a mother and what father might go through and think in these situations. In fact, when others are weak and mourning (not a negative description) there needs to be others that can be strong and steadfast. That's what I see here. Thx


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Very well written! I completely agree. My heart aches for Toni, for her mom and dad, for her boyfriend, and for her friends. I've been glued to her case since day 1 and I haven't seen any posts bashing her parents. It may have been an accident, but we can't ignore some of the issues that have popped up regarding how her car was removed, how many statements were changed, etc. I think that by addressing these issues we hopefully can prevent it from happening to someone else. All IMO. this all sounded good in my head and then when I typed it I felt silly! #lymebrain


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[Dr.Strangelove]

Still catching back up but I wanted to share my two cents on things.


Firstly and respectfully, the police don't owe us anything. They don't owe us a press conference or a new release or any details at all. If that's owed to anyone, its Toni's family and AFAIK we don't know everything they know. All JMO but if what I've read is still correct, that her parents (or at least her mom) do not question the accident verdict at all, I think we should take that as more valuable as it seems like we have. Her mom knows her far better then any of us (excluding anyone on here who may have known her personally), and seems to find this very plausible. Maybe there are details not released to the public. Maybe there are lots of little things about Toni we don't know. Maybe she has a history of doing little things like that or being a distracted driver. JMO but I think her moms reaction is important in this case, and I think we all need to remember that we don't know everything that LE or her family do about this case.


Secondly, I just wanted to share my opinion on how possible it is this is an accident including some personal experience. I'm not saying there arn't any other possible scenarios, and I'm not saying LE has handled everything 100% how they should. But like Toni I'm a young woman, and I could see myself or at the very least someone I know doing what they are saying she did stone cold sobber. I read on here somewhere that her parents are saying she backed into it. To me this sounds like she maybe even knew it was a boat ramp and was using it to turn around. Not saying it's a super logical thing to do, but I'll be the first to admit as a young person my friends and I don't always make the best decisions when driving.


This is all assuming she was sobber, which we don't know. I think, in fact I know it is very possible to get high in the amount of time between her leaving QT and ending up in the river. I know because my friends and myself have gotten high in that time or less. Just last week my friend took an edible to school and ate it 10 minutes or so before lunch assuming it wouldn't kick in until lunch. She was gone by the time I saw her at lunch. Like one look at her and you knew she was high. And that's just talking about something like pot. And having been around drugs and high people I can easily see a high person doing something to accidentally end up in the river trying to leave or turn around.


Also if she was buying drugs she may have had her lights off which has been discussed. And I again know for a fact (because i used to go with my friends to deals on both sides) that some people commonly do that especially when in a park because sometimes police will patrol. I've been hanging out in a park like this after dark and had a cop see my head lights and come talk to me because most of those parks close after dark (at least in St.Louis). And although at least to the east the ice storm was a "let down", it was below freezing and the ramp could have still been icy especially since I doubt they salted it. JMO.

So I guess I don't really see why a lot of you (and I could be miss reading things do apologies if that's the case) think the given explanation is too fishy to believe because it seems like a fitting scenario to me. JMO. Again not saying there isn't something going on but I don't see the given explanation as hard to believe

Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings

 

[PokeyMeansBusiness]

I'm new here, so forgive me if I'm not replying properly, just wanted to say re: tonis making more money when she pretends to be drunk... I was a shooter girl in a strip club years ago. We were only allowed to drink 1 shot an hour, so we had our very own marked bottles we poured from when men bought us shots, I'd opt for either vodka, in which was water, or iced tea in a rum bottle, and keep the $5. Not that tonis drinking habits matter now, but it's possible she was doing something similar, and thats what she meant by pretending to be drunk

Use the "Reply With Quote" feature on the bottom right of the post <mod snip> Welcome to Websleuths.

 

[possumheart]

Still catching back up but I wanted to share my two cents on things.


Firstly and respectfully, the police don't owe us anything. They don't owe us a press conference or a new release or any details at all. If that's owed to anyone, its Toni's family and AFAIK we don't know everything they know. All JMO but if what I've read is still correct, that her parents (or at least her mom) do not question the accident verdict at all, I think we should take that as more valuable as it seems like we have. Her mom knows her far better then any of us (excluding anyone on here who may have known her personally), and seems to find this very plausible. Maybe there are details not released to the public. Maybe there are lots of little things about Toni we don't know. Maybe she has a history of doing little things like that or being a distracted driver. JMO but I think her moms reaction is important in this case, and I think we all need to remember that we don't know everything that LE or her family do about this case.


Secondly, I just wanted to share my opinion on how possible it is this is an accident including some personal experience. I'm not saying there arn't any other possible scenarios, and I'm not saying LE has handled everything 100% how they should. But like Toni I'm a young woman, and I could see myself or at the very least someone I know doing what they are saying she did stone cold sobber. I read on here somewhere that her parents are saying she backed into it. To me this sounds like she maybe even knew it was a boat ramp and was using it to turn around. Not saying it's a super logical thing to do, but I'll be the first to admit as a young person my friends and I don't always make the best decisions when driving.


This is all assuming she was sobber, which we don't know. I think, in fact I know it is very possible to get high in the amount of time between her leaving QT and ending up in the river. I know because my friends and myself have gotten high in that time or less. Just last week my friend took an edible to school and ate it 10 minutes or so before lunch assuming it wouldn't kick in until lunch. She was gone by the time I saw her at lunch. Like one look at her and you knew she was high. And that's just talking about something like pot. And having been around drugs and high people I can easily see a high person doing something to accidentally end up in the river trying to leave or turn around.


Also if she was buying drugs she may have had her lights off which has been discussed. And I again know for a fact (because i used to go with my friends to deals on both sides) that some people commonly do that especially when in a park because sometimes police will patrol. I've been hanging out in a park like this after dark and had a cop see my head lights and come talk to me because most of those parks close after dark (at least in St.Louis). And although at least to the east the ice storm was a "let down", it was below freezing and the ramp could have still been icy especially since I doubt they salted it. JMO.

So I guess I don't really see why a lot of you (and I could be miss reading things do apologies if that's the case) think the given explanation is too fishy to believe because it seems like a fitting scenario to me. JMO. Again not saying there isn't something going on but I don't see the given explanation as hard to believe

Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings

your ramblings make perfect sense to me

 

[Deleted member 155000]

Still catching back up but I wanted to share my two cents on things.


Firstly and respectfully, the police don't owe us anything. They don't owe us a press conference or a new release or any details at all. If that's owed to anyone, its Toni's family and AFAIK we don't know everything they know. All JMO but if what I've read is still correct, that her parents (or at least her mom) do not question the accident verdict at all, I think we should take that as more valuable as it seems like we have. Her mom knows her far better then any of us (excluding anyone on here who may have known her personally), and seems to find this very plausible. Maybe there are details not released to the public. Maybe there are lots of little things about Toni we don't know. Maybe she has a history of doing little things like that or being a distracted driver. JMO but I think her moms reaction is important in this case, and I think we all need to remember that we don't know everything that LE or her family do about this case.


Secondly, I just wanted to share my opinion on how possible it is this is an accident including some personal experience. I'm not saying there arn't any other possible scenarios, and I'm not saying LE has handled everything 100% how they should. But like Toni I'm a young woman, and I could see myself or at the very least someone I know doing what they are saying she did stone cold sobber. I read on here somewhere that her parents are saying she backed into it. To me this sounds like she maybe even knew it was a boat ramp and was using it to turn around. Not saying it's a super logical thing to do, but I'll be the first to admit as a young person my friends and I don't always make the best decisions when driving.


This is all assuming she was sobber, which we don't know. I think, in fact I know it is very possible to get high in the amount of time between her leaving QT and ending up in the river. I know because my friends and myself have gotten high in that time or less. Just last week my friend took an edible to school and ate it 10 minutes or so before lunch assuming it wouldn't kick in until lunch. She was gone by the time I saw her at lunch. Like one look at her and you knew she was high. And that's just talking about something like pot. And having been around drugs and high people I can easily see a high person doing something to accidentally end up in the river trying to leave or turn around.


Also if she was buying drugs she may have had her lights off which has been discussed. And I again know for a fact (because i used to go with my friends to deals on both sides) that some people commonly do that especially when in a park because sometimes police will patrol. I've been hanging out in a park like this after dark and had a cop see my head lights and come talk to me because most of those parks close after dark (at least in St.Louis). And although at least to the east the ice storm was a "let down", it was below freezing and the ramp could have still been icy especially since I doubt they salted it. JMO.

So I guess I don't really see why a lot of you (and I could be miss reading things do apologies if that's the case) think the given explanation is too fishy to believe because it seems like a fitting scenario to me. JMO. Again not saying there isn't something going on but I don't see the given explanation as hard to believe

Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings

I lean strongly toward accident as well and I have a fair degree of trust in LE, despite there of course being a few bad apples in every industry.

I do think LE should offer the public further explanation however. Public resources were likely used to build and possibly maintain that park, other people and young women frequent many of the same areas as Toni, etc. If they uncover evidence that confirms or strengthens the possibility it could be an accident and/or foul play, they should share the generalizations to inform the community and ease people's mistrust with LE. I don't think it's necessary to share specifics--like actual text messages recovered and so on, but to make general statements like--hypothetically, "Text communication and video footage along the route indicated she was going to meet someone at the park, but they never showed due to icy conditions. The toxicology report showed substance use was a factor in what police believe to be an accident." (This is an example of a generalized statement. These details are not true.)

I know some people will question any statement released, but the majority will accept a transparent explanation that indicates they've investigated other possibilities and drawn a conclusion.



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[OnTheCase101]

Still catching back up but I wanted to share my two cents on things.


Firstly and respectfully, the police don't owe us anything. They don't owe us a press conference or a new release or any details at all. If that's owed to anyone, its Toni's family and AFAIK we don't know everything they know. All JMO but if what I've read is still correct, that her parents (or at least her mom) do not question the accident verdict at all, I think we should take that as more valuable as it seems like we have. Her mom knows her far better then any of us (excluding anyone on here who may have known her personally), and seems to find this very plausible. Maybe there are details not released to the public. Maybe there are lots of little things about Toni we don't know. Maybe she has a history of doing little things like that or being a distracted driver. JMO but I think her moms reaction is important in this case, and I think we all need to remember that we don't know everything that LE or her family do about this case.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. I think we - especially local women here in the metro - do have a right to some answers. If it was truly a tragic boat ramp death, it's time to either get a gate, install cameras, or shut it down. If I was KCPD, I might even go so far as to voluntarily re-scan the boat ramp area to prove to the public that it isn't a well-known dumping ground. Given the insanely sketchy investigation and kc's homicide and missing persons rate, I think that would work wonders in terms of regaining public trust. I think they also owe it to us to show us the dash footage and QT footage. The unfortunate truth so well documented by MaxManning is that KC has systematic issues preventing justice from being served.


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[OnTheCase101]

Really, Toni's death has been perfect Serial Killer training. It exposed a remote place in KC, sans security cameras, where you can access the MO river directly 24/7. And if you dump a car, apparently it'll be swallowed by silt within 90 days, and if anyone manages to locate it, all the evidence will basically be destroyed. They would be crazy not to at least train cameras throughout that park. Super creepy. MOO of course.


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[BamiesFan]

Lets use this to make the world better. How does someone under drinking age work in a strip bar? It is a disgusting predatory environment. Of all the crap our society wont allow.. we allow this?