Mr. Chaz Bono on Oprah, Mon. May 9, 2011

[SpriteGal]

I think a lot of people get confused the meaning of gender and sex. You can change your gender, but not your sex. IMO. Chaz is a male genderwise, but biologically his sex is female. IMO.

 

[Emma Peel]

I think a lot of people get confused the meaning of gender and sex. You can change your gender, but not your sex. IMO. Chaz is a male genderwise, but biologically his sex is female. IMO.

Agreed that it is confusing. For reference:

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

 

[smart blonde]

My daughter, my only child, is kind, loyal, honest, intelligent, funny, beautiful, generous and just all-around wonderful. She is 27 years old, gay/ lesbian, and dresses herself in what could only be considered 'male' style. She self-identifies as female, and has no desire to change her gender. If she did though, I would be supportive of her decision, because I want her to live her life as who she is, whatever gender that may be. She has always made friends easily, and has always been a 'people magnet'. She is the kind of person others are just simply drawn to.

She says she has always known she was gay. She has never had sexual relations with a male- and, has never wanted to. She 'came out' to me when she was fifteen years old, and the only thing that bothered me was that I hadn't realized she was gay, myself. After all, she is my only child- I thought I should have known. But the thing is, she was Courtney then, as she is Courtney now. Nothing changed. That is probably why I didn't 'notice'. Her sexual orientation is only a part of who she is. Just like she has blue eyes, she's allergic to strawberries, she wears a size 7 shoe, she is gay. It all works together to make up who she is.

Although I am only 18 (and three quarter) years older than she, I have noticed that overall, her generation is much more accepting, and respectful, of another's individuality. The majority of her generation seem to realize it makes about as much sense to judge someone on their sexuality as it does to judge them on what size foot they have.

(People my age and older are the ones who seem to be the most judgmental. You wouldn't believe some of the things people have said to me over the years when they learn my daughter is a lesbian. But, if you want to see an easy-going woman turn into a mother lion, just say it to my face, lol)! :angel:

I am grateful to Mr. Chaz Bono for bringing awareness and enlightenment about gender issues to such a wide audience. What he is doing takes so much courage, only because there is still so much ignorance in the world. He knew that masses of strangers would be foaming at the mouth to tear him apart, simply for being who he is, yet he stepped forward anyway, in the hopes of opening some minds, and making the journey that much easier for others who need to follow in his footsteps. Yes, need. We each get one life to live. What a nightmare it would be to have to live it as someone you are not- just because of what others might think of you.

 

[PAJS]

Smart Blond-

I hear and feel what you are saying. As the mother of an adult, lesbian daughter, I do not understand the problems about accepting others. All I know is my daughter is the same person I've loved for all her life. I remember her pain as she struggled to tell loved ones-she was so relieved to tell us. It pained me to see her suffer-because I knew for a long time, but for some reason she wasn't talking yet. It was such a burden lifted from her when she told us. Some older members of the family seemed a bit uncomfortable, but they still loved her.

I know the heartache one lives with when he/she can't be who they really are, without a lot of trouble. I so admire Chaz for his efforts to speak for those who are not ready to speak yet. I respect him for doing what he is doing, despite all the backlash-he is a trooper. I'm glad he's living his life as he wants. Everyone deserves that much.

Pat S

 

[Emma Peel]

My daughter, my only child, is kind, loyal, honest, intelligent, funny, beautiful, generous and just all-around wonderful. She is 27 years old, gay/ lesbian, and dresses herself in what could only be considered 'male' style. She self-identifies as female, and has no desire to change her gender. If she did though, I would be supportive of her decision, because I want her to live her life as who she is, whatever gender that may be. She has always made friends easily, and has always been a 'people magnet'. She is the kind of person others are just simply drawn to.

She says she has always known she was gay. She has never had sexual relations with a male- and, has never wanted to. She 'came out' to me when she was fifteen years old, and the only thing that bothered me was that I hadn't realized she was gay, myself. After all, she is my only child- I thought I should have known. But the thing is, she was Courtney then, as she is Courtney now. Nothing changed. That is probably why I didn't 'notice'. Her sexual orientation is only a part of who she is. Just like she has blue eyes, she's allergic to strawberries, she wears a size 7 shoe, she is gay. It all works together to make up who she is.

Although I am only 18 (and three quarter) years older than she, I have noticed that overall, her generation is much more accepting, and respectful, of another's individuality. The majority of her generation seem to realize it makes about as much sense to judge someone on their sexuality as it does to judge them on what size foot they have.

(People my age and older are the ones who seem to be the most judgmental. You wouldn't believe some of the things people have said to me over the years when they learn my daughter is a lesbian. But, if you want to see an easy-going woman turn into a mother lion, just say it to my face, lol)! :angel:

I am grateful to Mr. Chaz Bono for bringing awareness and enlightenment about gender issues to such a wide audience. What he is doing takes so much courage, only because there is still so much ignorance in the world. He knew that masses of strangers would be foaming at the mouth to tear him apart, simply for being who he is, yet he stepped forward anyway, in the hopes of opening some minds, and making the journey that much easier for others who need to follow in his footsteps. Yes, need. We each get one life to live. What a nightmare it would be to have to live it as someone you are not- just because of what others might think of you.

:tyou:

Many thanks for a beautiful & wise post that gets right to the heart of the matter on a topic that can only benefit from these shared experiences.

 

[Emma Peel]

Smart Blond-

I hear and feel what you are saying. As the mother of an adult, lesbian daughter, I do not understand the problems about accepting others. All I know is my daughter is the same person I've loved for all her life. I remember her pain as she struggled to tell loved ones-she was so relieved to tell us. It pained me to see her suffer-because I knew for a long time, but for some reason she wasn't talking yet. It was such a burden lifted from her when she told us. Some older members of the family seemed a bit uncomfortable, but they still loved her.

I know the heartache one lives with when he/she can't be who they really are, without a lot of trouble. I so admire Chaz for his efforts to speak for those who are not ready to speak yet. I respect him for doing what he is doing, despite all the backlash-he is a trooper. I'm glad he's living his life as he wants. Everyone deserves that much.

Pat S

:tyou:

And many thanks for this - it's so true. Not all are ready to speak - many times because of the fear of losing those closest to them - those they love the most. How they suffer - heartache and depression - not because of who they are, but because they can't be who they are knowing who their loved ones need them to be. They fear living as their authentic selves, (many times for good reason given their family dynamic) - but just as many times - they suffer needlessly.

It's getting better. And this IS Chaz's mission. To be a familiar public face for gender identity choices & related struggles. He's a logical choice - so many in his mother's generation knew him as her little girl. He is a public example of someone you welcomed into your home - someone you "knew" - who is willing to share his journey.

And he's doing a great job at that. What a nice, humble, honest, earnest gentleman he appears to be. IMO, the world will enjoy getting to know him. And in doing so, he's bound to encourage many to change their life experience for the better. :thumb:

Gosh, I hope Lacy can whip him into shape so he can stay on the show as long as possible and accomplish as much as he can as a goodwill ambassador for LGBTQ/gender identity education.

 

[Emma Peel]

How many psychological disorders do we know of where surgery is the answer?

Most times, psychological disorders are treated with medication and counseling.

Wouldn't it make more sense to try to get to the bottom of why someone has this phychological disorder and work on treating the MIND?

Wouldn't major surgery to change your physical self be kind of ineffecient in treating a mental condition? I think the answer is yes. And I think there is a lot of info out there that supports my opinion.

This is just an example, before anyone says anything about the race issue, it was not meant to be racist in any way.... Just an example...

If I had a disorder where I felt I was a black girl trapped in a white girl's body, would I have surgery to change the color of my skin? Or would I get help to find out why I felt that way and try to change the way I feel?

IMO you don't use surgery to mask or treat a mental disorder.

What the heck does that mean - to have a disorder where you felt you were a black girl trapped in a white girl's body? :waitasec: What on earth?

As preposterous as that analogy is, you can't have surgery to change the color of your skin. May I recommend you simply bake it or fake bake it.
Or maybe we ban that?

More analogies:

Plenty of people have surgery to change physical characteristics that are a source of difficulty for them & their personal/emotional/social health. We have bariatric surgery for emotional eaters. And liposuction. And orthodontics - which parents push on their unsuspecting 10/11 year olds lest they have a mouthful of unpretty. Unnecessary and shameful that. And rhinoplasty, facelifts, ear-pinning, breast implants, buttocks implants, six-pack implants for those with low self-esteem? Ban that.

And plenty of people who take emotion-altering and/or hormone augmenting/suppressing drugs to get through the days of their difficult lives. Ban that too.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

What the heck does that mean - to have a disorder where you felt you were a black girl trapped in a white girl's body? :waitasec: What on earth?

As preposterous as that analogy is, you can't have surgery to change the color of your skin. May I recommend you simply bake it or fake bake it.
Or maybe we ban that?

More analogies:

Plenty of people have surgery to change physical characteristics that are a source of difficulty for them & their personal/emotional/social health. We have bariatric surgery for emotional eaters. And liposuction. And orthodontics - which parents push on their unsuspecting 10/11 year olds lest they have a mouthful of unpretty. Unnecessary and shameful that. And rhinoplasty, facelifts, ear-pinning, breast implants, buttocks implants, six-pack implants for those with low self-esteem? Ban that.

And plenty of people who take emotion-altering and/or hormone augmenting/suppressing drugs to get through the days of their difficult lives. Ban that too.

Emma, I knew you would have an issue with my example.
:smile:

I was born white. No matter how much I may want to be black, I can't.
I can tan, I can use bronzer. But, my race would not change.

Can't change your race and you can't change what sex you are by operations.


That's my point.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

<modsnip>

Wee wee'd up? Yes, I guess in these times where bullying has exacted such a tragic and irreversible price as to be costing young people their lives, I do tend to beat my head in frustration when I see people blithely banter about "just opinions" when those "opinions" are actually cloaked in bigoted speech. Chaz Bono is different. He is not deviant. He is an actual living, breathing, human being with feelings, worth etc.....not a circus freak. As adults, lets lead by example and accept people for who they are. DWTS did not make a grand announcement, "Introducing, Chaz Bono, transgendered individual!!!!" The only way children know about his circumstances is from parents/adults allowing them to view adult content whether it be on TV, radio, internet, newspapers and railing about it in their presence. By virtue of their parents/adults negative, disbelieving response, they are being indoctrinated to view people such as Chaz Bono as spectacles to be analyzed and investigated with suspicion. Why do that? If I were to watch the show with my son, he would recognize Chaz Bono as a man, there would be no question on his part, and therefore, no controversy. He would never know Chaz changed his gender unless I told him or exposed him to adult content. I just can't believe it is 2011 and these kind of debates are raging on. We really need more division amongst the human race???? Really???? About whether someone identifies themselves as male or female???

BBM

Yes they did.

Before Chaz danced her first dance, there was a clip stating the fact that Chaz was the first transgendered person on the show.

There was an announcement.

 

[TrackerSam]

Or maybe we ban that?

More analogies:
Ban that.

Ban that too.

Who is calling for the banning of anything? It seems like when you can't support a point you imagine a new one. No one here is in a position to bully anyone. No one here is in a position to deny anything to anyone. It's called the 'straw man'. It's where you make something up and then argue against it.
You can't change your gender and you can't change your sex. You can crossdress. You can affect the mannerisms of desired gender. You can change your name, but you will never, no matter how many operations or chemicals you pump into yourself, be able to change your gender.

 

[Emma Peel]

Emma, I knew you would have an issue with my example.
:smile:

I was born white. No matter how much I may want to be black, I can't.
I can tan, I can use bronzer. But, my race would not change.

Can't change your race and you can't change what sex you are by operations.


That's my point.

You made me chuckle with your comment that you "knew" that I'd have issues with your example of being a black girl trapped in a white girl's body. LOL.

Thanks for further explaining why you chose the "you can't change your race" analogy. As you probably already knew, I still have issue with that statement. And the analogy of race & sex in your argument.

A couple of points:

1) Actually, there may be hope for your "black girl born trapped in white girl's body" yet. If you have one drop of ancestral blood in your background that is black - you can race-identify as black - here in the USA. It's called the one-drop rule. And it's unique to the US.

By the way, virtually no other country in the world uses any such "one-drop" rule to determine race. Just the US. :sigh:

2) Race is not a biological construct so much as a human-invented construct.

3) Most of the world - most humans - are not of pure "race", and, biologically speaking, chromosomal analysis supports people's ideas of their "racial identities" and "ethnic identities" much less than their "sex identity male/female". The concept of "identifying one's race" can be rather subjective. Consequently, race identity is frequently in shades along the continuum (kind of like gender identity). In other parts of the world, (Europe, for example) people identify with the ethnicity and culture they were raised in rather than the shade of their skin, or their other physical characteristics.

Not to mention, white women give birth to black babies - and vice-versa - quite often. In the US, are these babies black? One-drop says yes - certainly. However, if these mulatto babies are overseas, they can claim to be whatever race they please.

So, if people can change their racial identity depending upon the country the are standing in, IMO, it's an erroneous argument that you can't change your race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

More to the point, the "you can't change your race" analogy really doesn't work here either. Mostly because until a person has done some deep ancestral chromosome analysis of their racial bloodlines -- they are merely just guessing what "race" they are anyway. :sigh:



As for the "you can't change your race" concept, it's been chromosomally proven that all humans of all races are biological descendants of the Bushman tribe.

I suppose, it could be argued that (technically at least in the US, adhering to the one-drop rule), we're all black - the "race" of the Bushman. Can't change that.

Boy oh boy, doesn't that mess up the census, the KKK, & affirmative action efforts? :giggle:

And it could even explain that black girl trapped in a white girl's body feeling...

and :cow:

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Leave it to you Emma.

Ok, forget my example.

I think I made my point as far as what I was using it to make.

My head is swimming.

You don't have to agree with me. We can disagree.

I stand 100% by my original opinion on this thread... No amount of surgery can make Chaz or anyone else on this planet another sex.
No matter how legal it is.

Ta Ta for now.

:crazy:

 

[Emma Peel]

Leave it to you Emma.

Ok, forget my example.

I think I made my point as far as what I was using it to make.

My head is swimming.

You don't have to agree with me. We can disagree.

I stand 100% by my original opinion on this thread... No amount of surgery can make Chaz or anyone else on this planet another sex.
No matter how legal it is.

Ta Ta for now.

:crazy:

LOL yes, I know that spinning feeling too. We often very agreeably disagree, especially when the room starts to spin, and so we shall.


Except I think even Chaz might agree with your position that he was born with female DNA ... and ... that nothing (that we've invented yet) will ever change that.


See ya later! :seeya:

 

[Lifted]

Who is calling for the banning of anything? It seems like when you can't support a point you imagine a new one. No one here is in a position to bully anyone. No one here is in a position to deny anything to anyone. It's called the 'straw man'. It's where you make something up and then argue against it.

You must have missed this quote
(snipped by me)

I personally think this kind of procedure should be against the law.

What is it called when you accuse someone of making up something, when they didn't really make it up at all? Is that a straw man as well?

 

[Emma Peel]

Whoa, Chaz had a rough go of it with his knees, the steps, and the judges this round.

Just wanted to say: Yay Chaz! for making it through the cut. Close call, but nicely averted. :thumb:

Don't give up the faith & keep enjoying yourself!

 

[Chili Fries]

I see discussions about this type of thing often on the web and, like this one, they are usually lacking in real science.

Gender (or sex differences) don't depend on one thing. It's also important to note that gender can be seen as a continuum from male to female. Your genes are the basis for development, but it's not like they are such strict controllers. We realize this because even though we have the same amount and types of chromosomes, people can be very different. There are people with XX sex chromosomes who develop as males and people with XY sex chromosomes who develop as females.

Once a human is developing all kinds of confusing gender characteristics can be formed. We all know that different hormone levels are one distinguishing characteristic of males and females but we also know that those hormone levels can be all over the map. There are also ambiguous reproductive organs, which include many different kinds of ovotestes that can't be characterized as definitely female or definitely male.

Science is also beginning to understand that the sex a person's mind identifies with is a real thing, which depends on the other stuff I've mentioned above but also may involve something in the brain itself.

So...gender and sex differences are very, very complicated and cannot be simplified to one or two things. It's easy to see how it's tough for people who scientifically and medically fall in these grey areas have a very tough time figuring things out. It also may be natural that the brain needs to make an instinctive choice, which is probably not going to match all the different physical distinctions going on in the body. Anyway, the point is that it's important to look beyond just man and woman when thinking of sex differences because that's the way things really are in nature.

 

[smart blonde]

I see discussions about this type of thing often on the web and, like this one, they are usually lacking in real science.

Gender (or sex differences) don't depend on one thing. It's also important to note that gender can be seen as a continuum from male to female. Your genes are the basis for development, but it's not like they are such strict controllers. We realize this because even though we have the same amount and types of chromosomes, people can be very different. There are people with XX sex chromosomes who develop as males and people with XY sex chromosomes who develop as females.

Once a human is developing all kinds of confusing gender characteristics can be formed. We all know that different hormone levels are one distinguishing characteristic of males and females but we also know that those hormone levels can be all over the map. There are also ambiguous reproductive organs, which include many different kinds of ovotestes that can't be characterized as definitely female or definitely male.

Science is also beginning to understand that the sex a person's mind identifies with is a real thing, which depends on the other stuff I've mentioned above but also may involve something in the brain itself.

So...gender and sex differences are very, very complicated and cannot be simplified to one or two things. It's easy to see how it's tough for people who scientifically and medically fall in these grey areas have a very tough time figuring things out. It also may be natural that the brain needs to make an instinctive choice, which is probably not going to match all the different physical distinctions going on in the body. Anyway, the point is that it's important to look beyond just man and woman when thinking of sex differences because that's the way things really are in nature.

These are some brilliant points. Thank you so much for this post!

I was coming here to post this- a quote from Chaz Bono, in his book, "Transition: The Story of How I Became A Man".....

"Most people don't the the difference between 'gender' and 'gender identity'. Gender is the sex that one is born as, and for most of us, that sex is either female or male. Your gender identity, however, is based on feelings, and not biology. I like to say your gender identity is between your ears, not your legs".

Here is his book, available at Amazon (also available for Kindle):
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Transition-Story-How-Became-Man/dp/0525952144/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t"]Amazon.com: Transition: The Story of How I Became a Man (9780525952145): Chaz Bono: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41W5FToQq%2BL.@@AMEPARAM@@41W5FToQq%2BL[/ame]

 

[Chili Fries]

These are some brilliant points. Thank you so much for this post!

I was coming here to post this- a quote from Chaz Bono, in his book, "Transition: The Story of How I Became A Man".....

"Most people don't the the difference between 'gender' and 'gender identity'. Gender is the sex that one is born as, and for most of us, that sex is either female or male. Your gender identity, however, is based on feelings, and not biology. I like to say your gender identity is between your ears, not your legs".

Here is his book, available at Amazon (also available for Kindle):
Amazon.com: Transition: The Story of How I Became a Man (9780525952145): Chaz Bono: Books

The key words are "most of us". As I posted above, there are still many people whose chromosomes don't match the sex they developed into, or who can't be defined as a man or woman. The estimate is that 10 million people worldwide have this condition. Then add in all the other possible combinations of hormone, reproductive organ or gender feelings ("between your ears", as Chaz says) and you get a lot of confused people.

This has developed into a political debate for Chaz and many people who struggle with these issues, understandably so. But that's different than what medical science has known for a long time. What a lot of people probably don't realize is that historically it has been common for doctors to perform reassignment surgery on babies, sometimes without even telling the parents. They decide what gender the child should be solely based on the look of the external genitals, not taking into account internal reproductive organs and hormone levels. This has caused many people to grow up knowing that something is wrong without realizing what happened. It's something that's motivated gender activists, they say that the surgery should wait until the child is old enough to make the decision about whether to have surgery on the ambiguous genitals.

So Chaz may be a person whose mind identifies as a different gender than his body (and science is beginning to understand what a powerful reality that is), but there are many physical ambiguities involving sex beyond that. It's not true that someone is born either a male or female, far from it.

 

[TrackerSam]

I was coming here to post this- a quote from Chaz Bono, in his book, "Transition: The Story of How I Became A Man".....

"Most people don't the the difference between 'gender' and 'gender identity'. Gender is the sex that one is born as, and for most of us, that sex is either female or male. Your gender identity, however, is based on feelings, and not biology. I like to say your gender identity is between your ears, not your legs".

[/url]

Chaz couldn't possibly know what "most people" think about it so it's an erroneous assumption on Chaz's part to begin with, plus it's not even about Chaz Bono. The argument isn't 'gender v gender identity'. This is the strawman argument. You cannot change gender. You cannot take a scalpel and carve a cat out of a dog's body, though the law may legally let you get away with calling your dog a cat. You cannot pin the tail on the donkey and call it a moose just because the donkey is feeling moosey. Creating a cavity between one's legs and calling it a vagina is as much a lie as stuffing a rolled up pair of sox down your pants and calling it a penis.
You may recall this story -Carved by a woodcarver named Geppetto in a small Italian village, he was created as a wooden puppet, but dreamt of becoming a real boy.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Not sure how anybody can say that it's not true that people are born either male or female.
:waitasec: