My view has done a complete 180

[iluvmua]

I might have forgot about this part? Who was believed to be drunk and how did this come about in relation to the case?

Satch

Jessie Said they were all drunk and he said that he threw an empty Evan Williams bottle over the overpass, anyways..... The WM Police found the bottle and never dusted for fingerprints......

 

[Miranda!]

I'm sure that information had been out there all along, but I just enjoyed seeing myself as on the side of right and good..those poor misunderstood boys who were being cast as murderers by a bunch of rednecks. It makes a wonderful feel good tragedy...especially if they prevailed...but unfortunately, the facts don't fit that story I, and apparently an entire generation, have been spoon fed.

I'm not saying I'm entirely in the "Guilty" camp, but if I'm on the fence, I'm dangling by my fingertips.

Mainly Damian's trench coat...whatever happened to that beloved trenchcoat? I dated a series of Damian's in the exact same time period. They all had a trenchcoat too. There wasn't much that would make them discard one, except of course, if it was covered in blood.

I don't think the trench coat was on the search warrant. Look at Exhibit C here:- http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/img/de_search.html

AS I recall it was apparently on the floor of his room and the last I heard it was in the possession of Jason Baldwin's younger brother, Matt.

Getting teen aged boys to tidy their rooms is nigh impossible so the idea of three inebriated teens making a crime scene 'forensically clean' is a big leap.

Also, for the state to release someone from Death Row whom they are convinced committed the crime is verging on the ridiculous. It would beggar belief and only makes any sense if, in fact, they felt that guilt was not carved in stone despite their face saving comments.

However, mtDNA is shared only by people with a common maternal ancestor. The mtDNA from the hair under Michael Moore's ligature differed from Terry Hobbs' mtDNA by only one nucleotide. That's why they called it a 97.5% (some sources say 98.5%) match to Terry Hobbs.

A minor correction here. My nephew and I have one maternal ancestor in common - my mother and his grandmother. We do NOT share the same MtDNA as he would have inherited his from his mother.

The MtDNA is passed down the maternal line to both sons and daughters, subsequently only the daughters will pass that same MtDNA on. The confusion is one of semantics, I think, maternal ancestors are not necessarily the same as the maternal blood line!

Hobbs' siblings cannot be excluded here but then neither can any maternal uncles or aunts nor any cousins born to his maternal aunts! The off-spring of his maternal uncles (first cousins) whilst sharing a maternal ancestor will carry the MtDNA of their respective mothers!

Does anyone know why LG hasn't been websleuthed? He is a very likely suspect, especially with all the lying he did to the police. I have a feeling that if he were stilll alive, that we would be discussing him more today that TH.

You appear to have answered your own question here! However, were he still alive I feel sure that the Defence Team would have endeavoured to interview him too and obtain DNA samples for possible exclusion purposes. The only source of his DNA now is in the hands of the wmpd if they have taken care of the evidence, that is.

Given the technological advances in forensic science since 93/94 the ball is in their court to run any more tests. Given their total faith in their original investigation and case against the three, I very much doubt they will bother to do any follow-up work unless the WM3 attornies manage to persuade Prosecutor Ellington to re-open the case.

It would be great if they were back-tracking and checking all other investigative avenues in order to see if they missed anything that could shed more light on this case. However, I think they have turned their collective backs on 'justice' here and just want it all to go away!

Another long post. Apologies, but, in mitigation, I have tried to respond to three different points raised!

Miranda

 

[Compassionate Reader]

A minor correction here. My nephew and I have one maternal ancestor in common - my mother and his grandmother. We do NOT share the same MtDNA as he would have inherited his from his mother.

The MtDNA is passed down the maternal line to both sons and daughters, subsequently only the daughters will pass that same MtDNA on. The confusion is one of semantics, I think, maternal ancestors are not necessarily the same as the maternal blood line!

Hobbs' siblings cannot be excluded here but then neither can any maternal uncles or aunts nor any cousins born to his maternal aunts! The off-spring of his maternal uncles (first cousins) whilst sharing a maternal ancestor will carry the MtDNA of their respective mothers!

Miranda

<respectfully snipped>

Thank you for the clarification. What this means, in laymans' terms, at least to me, is that it's even more unlikely that the hair belonged to anyone but TH. In fact, IIRC, he has never disputed the fact that the hair is most likely his, claiming secondary transfer.

That means that the focus should really be on the "tree stump" hair. Although DJ freely gave a cheek swab, the hair was rootless and therefore no full DNA profile could be taken. However, it is a 93% match to DJ's mtDNA. Since TH "played guitars" (is this code for something else?) with DJ between about 5:15 and 6:15 on May 5th, is it a stretch of the imagination to believe that TH could have picked up one of DJ's hairs while in his house?

Since the speculation is that the tree stump hair is a pubic hair, I believe that he could have picked it up when he went to use the restroom. This is an idea that was first presented on the Blackboard, but it is one that makes since to me. So, as I have said before, the more damning hair is not TH's own hair but that of his friend, DJ.

Oh, BTW, I agree about teenaged boys not being neat. That three teenaged boys would have meticulously cleaned a murder scene as this supposed scene was cleaned is simply not logical. And, IMO, if this had been a "cult" killing or a "thrill kill," the bodies would have been left on display, not hidden away.

 

[madeleine]

The Majority of people think that if there is no DNA evidence to the WM3, then there is no possible way they could have done it.


I Hate the fact that these 3 are held as Heroes and Victims because of what they went through.

Truth is...... it has always been about Damien, Jessie & Jason and not about Stevie, Chris or Michael.

ITA.
Nothing will ever change my mind about this case and about these 3.I always had this strong feeling (backed up by the totality of evidence) that they are guilty.
Lack of DNA does NOT mean lack of evidence.I saw the way they talked about the case and their situation,those interviews in jail when they were younger....the arrogance.....sent chills down my spine........

 

[Wishbone]

I first watched Paradise Lost when it originally aired and remember wondering how on earth the State could have prosecuted the case, yet alone how could the jury convict. Well, I just watched it again after all these years and since I know more about the case at this point, I have to say I am outraged at the travesty of justice directed at those young men. I have to add that IMO the children were not murdered at the site where they were found and it became obvious to me that LE knew that as well&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;

 

[Compassionate Reader]

ITA.
Nothing will ever change my mind about this case and about these 3.I always had this strong feeling (backed up by the totality of evidence) that they are guilty.
Lack of DNA does NOT mean lack of evidence.I saw the way they talked about the case and their situation,those interviews in jail when they were younger....the arrogance.....sent chills down my spine........

Either you don't remember being a teenager or have not been around teenagers in a long time or both. Damien "acted out" like a rebellious teenager. However, I didn't see any of that behavior from either Jason or Jessie. Jason was, as he is now, quiet-spoken and respectful. Jessie, on the advice of his attorneys, just kept his head down. To this day, whenever he is interviewed, his lack of "normal" mental faculties is painfully obvious.

I don't know why I bother with responding, since your first statement says it all. If you refuse to look at additional information, or look at it with a totally closed mind, you, like Todd M, Dana M, and Steve B, will never accept the truth. The WMFree are innocent of these murders, and they were railroaded by the "good ol' boy" network in Arkansas. Hopefully, they will soon be exonerated and the real killer will take his rightful place behind prison bars.

 

[claudicici]

I am really getting sick of "TH did it because his dna was there." How can one include this evidence but not the fibers that kind of matched the WM3 families. They are both not great evidence. The Dna only matched 2 bands and in a court of law that is not a match is it??
I wonder why everyone seems to believe its either black or white. Somewhere in the middle you find grey and usually the truth too.
Does anyone know why LG hasn't been websleuthed? There doesn't seem to be alot of info of him on the net so I assume that is why he hasn't been touched on as much? He is a very likely suspect, especially with all the lying he did to the police. I have a feeling that if he were stilll alive, that we would be discussing him more today that TH.

I think LG simply saw what happened to Damien,Jason and Jessie and he was scared to death that they were going after him next.I think that's why he told some lies.He may have done something illegal that day,maybe he stole a car that's why there was the discrepancy of what car he was driving.
i simply think he was scared of LE,thus the discrepancies.

 

[Peepers]

Ok, Im very new to this case and reading Devils Knot. I have no opinion yet if they are guilty or innocent. I just want to throw some questions out to some here that know allot more about it than I do.
So, when I read about the first confession..its not like the cops were water-boarding the kid. He was offering info. Granted it didnt match the evidence of the crime scene, but why would he confess to this at all? If the cops really forced a fake confession out of him, it wasnt portrayed strongly enough in this book. I have read that some people think he confessed because he thought he would get the reward money.
Opinions?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Ok, Im very new to this case and reading Devils Knot. I have no opinion yet if they are guilty or innocent. I just want to throw some questions out to some here that know allot more about it than I do.
So, when I read about the first confession..its not like the cops were water-boarding the kid. He was offering info. Granted it didnt match the evidence of the crime scene, but why would he confess to this at all? If the cops really forced a fake confession out of him, it wasnt portrayed strongly enough in this book. I have read that some people think he confessed because he thought he would get the reward money.
Opinions?

Jessie has an IQ of 72, which means that he's borderline mentally retarded and extremely suggestible. It's not that they forced him to say anything (because his original intention was to get the reward money and buy his daddy a truck) as much as it was that they put words in his mouth so that he would say what they wanted him to say and implicate Damien Echols. That's really all the cops wanted; his implication of himself was really unexpected.

In fact, when he first talked to them (of course, this part wasn't recorded), he said that he heard that Damien Echols and Robert Burch committed the murders. The cops were after Damien (because Jerry Driver had convinced them that Damien was guilty), so, when Jessie said the "magic name," they continued to question him to try to get more details. Jessie, because of his limited mental ability, thought that by saying he saw it all happen he would convince the police that he knew what he was talking about and he'd get the money.

Then, as time went by, Jessie just wanted to go home. At that point, he would have said anything that the police wanted him to say if he thought (erroneously for almost eighteen years) that he could go home as a result of what he told them. The reason that Jessie readily accepted the Alford Plea, IMO, is because, at long last, it allowed him to go home.

 

[Pensfan]

I have 3 young adult sons. None of them ever talked about killing people or animals and such. If they had, I would have been horrified. I agree this is NOT the norm. It very disturbing.

Yes, it is very disturbing. These are the same behaviors exhibited by individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder.

 

[Pensfan]

Jessie has an IQ of 72, which means that he's borderline mentally retarded and extremely suggestible. It's not that they forced him to say anything (because his original intention was to get the reward money and buy his daddy a truck) as much as it was that they put words in his mouth so that he would say what they wanted him to say and implicate Damien Echols. That's really all the cops wanted; his implication of himself was really unexpected.

In fact, when he first talked to them (of course, this part wasn't recorded), he said that he heard that Damien Echols and Robert Burch committed the murders. The cops were after Damien (because Jerry Driver had convinced them that Damien was guilty), so, when Jessie said the "magic name," they continued to question him to try to get more details. Jessie, because of his limited mental ability, thought that by saying he saw it all happen he would convince the police that he knew what he was talking about and he'd get the money.

Then, as time went by, Jessie just wanted to go home. At that point, he would have said anything that the police wanted him to say if he thought (erroneously for almost eighteen years) that he could go home as a result of what he told them. The reason that Jessie readily accepted the Alford Plea, IMO, is because, at long last, it allowed him to go home.

All three of these men confessed to various people. The man Jason confessed to passed a polygraph about whether Jason confessed to him. Jessie confessed numerous times and his IQ was between 72 and 88 when it was tested several times. Read more and see the references on this page:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-113698.html

 

[Pensfan]

Damien talked about murdering the children (if he really did) after he was accused of doing so.Again it's a defense mechanism.If you notice everyone staring at you,talking about you ,saying you did this,what more shocking thing to shut them up could you do then to say "oh yes I did and you might be next"

Defense mechanisms are consciously and unconsciously used to decrease anxiety. Confessing that you killed three small children and knowing that because of this you were going to be fried to death while unanesthesitized in an electric chair is not anyone&#8217;s conscious or unconscious method of decreasing anxiety.



Pensfan
--------
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

 

[Compassionate Reader]

All three of these men confessed to various people. The man Jason confessed to passed a polygraph about whether Jason confessed to him. Jessie confessed numerous times and his IQ was between 72 and 88 when it was tested several times. Read more and see the references on this page:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-113698.html

IQ tests are given in two parts. One part tests the reasoning and computing ability of the person being tested. The other part, called the "performance" portion, tests the ability of the person being tested to function in society. Jessie consistently scored in the high 60's or low 70's on the first portion of the test. He scored as high as 88 on the performance portion of the test. The two parts together form the overall IQ score. Jessie's overall IQ score has consistently been shown in the 70 - 74 range, making him borderline mentally retarded.

ETA: Jessie is the only one of the three to make a statement to LE, and, given his mental capabilities (or lack thereof) his statement was manipulated by LE so that he would say what they wanted to hear. His statement didn't match the facts at all except on things which were public knowledge at the time.

Jason supposedly told a fellow inmate at the juvenile detention facility that he did it, but one of the workers, Joyce Cureton IIRC, was told to be unavailable for Jason's trial as she would have refuted the statement. Yes, this snitch passed a polygraph. That doesn't surprise me in the least. Devious people can usually find a way to pass such a test.

Damien supposedly made a statement at a softball game professing guilt which was overheard by some tween girls who told their mother (who now believes that it was said sarcastically). Does this sound like Abigail of Salem Witch Trial fame to anyone else? If the statement was made, it was definitely said sarcastically as sarcasm was one of Damien's defense mechanisms for dealing with society at the time, as is very typical of teenagers, particularly a teenager who is basically a loner.

 

[claudicici]

Defense mechanisms are consciously and unconsciously used to decrease anxiety. Confessing that you killed three small children and knowing that because of this you were going to be fried to death while unanesthesitized in an electric chair is not anyone&#8217;s conscious or unconscious method of decreasing anxiety.



Pensfan
--------
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

well,that's what I would have done too if they were talking about me.I would have thought "let them think that" ,no way would I have thought they would actually be able to convict me of something I didn't do.

 

[claudicici]

Jessie has an IQ of 72, which means that he's borderline mentally retarded and extremely suggestible. It's not that they forced him to say anything (because his original intention was to get the reward money and buy his daddy a truck) as much as it was that they put words in his mouth so that he would say what they wanted him to say and implicate Damien Echols. That's really all the cops wanted; his implication of himself was really unexpected.

In fact, when he first talked to them (of course, this part wasn't recorded), he said that he heard that Damien Echols and Robert Burch committed the murders. The cops were after Damien (because Jerry Driver had convinced them that Damien was guilty), so, when Jessie said the "magic name," they continued to question him to try to get more details. Jessie, because of his limited mental ability, thought that by saying he saw it all happen he would convince the police that he knew what he was talking about and he'd get the money.

Then, as time went by, Jessie just wanted to go home. At that point, he would have said anything that the police wanted him to say if he thought (erroneously for almost eighteen years) that he could go home as a result of what he told them. The reason that Jessie readily accepted the Alford Plea, IMO, is because, at long last, it allowed him to go home.

I think it's interesting to see how this seems to be happening in a lot of the statements made by various people.They start with bits of information they know,throw in some rumors and then mostly not until the second time around the "magic name" comes into play.
I especially think it's interesting how much Aaron and Jesse's statements resemble each other.It seems like indeed Jesse and Aaron seem to have the same mental capacities.Both weeve a lot of obvious "fantasies" into their stories and both end up implicating themselves.
I wished they would do an experiment in a little town with a similar situation.
Start rumors that someone who is seen as odd or different by the community is guilty of something and see how many people will actually come forward with what they heard or seen that individual do,especially teenagers and children.
I'm sure the results would be the same.
Damien was right.He was the West Memphis Boogeyman.And just like the Boogeyman is not real he was just that in peoples mind.
Jason was implicated just because he was close to Damien.
And Jesse was easily manipulated just like Aaron....

 

[claudicici]

All three of these men confessed to various people. The man Jason confessed to passed a polygraph about whether Jason confessed to him. Jessie confessed numerous times and his IQ was between 72 and 88 when it was tested several times. Read more and see the references on this page:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-113698.html

Michael Carson was a liar.The story was fed to him by his counsellor.
The counsellor contacted the defense team and apologized to Jason.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dannyw_letter.html

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Michael Carson was a liar.The story was fed to him by his counsellor.
The counsellor contacted the defense team and apologized to Jason.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dannyw_letter.html

Boy, sometimes these senior moments can be really bad! I'd forgotten about that. Thanks!

 

[Pensfan]

Damien was right.He was the West Memphis Boogeyman.And just like the Boogeyman is not real he was just that in peoples mind.
Jason was implicated just because he was close to Damien.
And Jesse was easily manipulated just like Aaron....

(Above quote was shortened for brevity.)

Damien WANTED to be known as the boogeyman.

Bragging quote from Damien Echol&#8217;s:
"I knew from when I was real small people were gonna know who I was, I always had that feeling... I just never knew how they were gonna learn. I kind of enjoy it now because even after I die, people are gonna remember me forever. People are gonna talk about me for years. People in West Memphis will tell their kids stories... It'll be sorta like I'm the West Memphis boogie man. Little kids will be looking under their beds - "Damien" might be under there."


Here is a quote from Damien Echol&#8217;s medical record found on the Callahan site:
Reveals a history of abuse as he talked of how he was treated as a child. Denies that this has influenced him stating &#8220;I just put it all inside.&#8221; Describes this as more than just anger &#8212; like rage. Sometimes he does &#8220;blow up&#8221;. Relates that when this happens the only solution is to &#8220;hurt someone&#8221;. Damien reports being told at the hospital that he could be another &#8220;Charles Manson or Ted Bundy&#8221;. When questioned on his feelings he states &#8220;I know I&#8217;m going to influence the world &#8212; people will remember me.&#8221;

Did I mention recently that in addition to Damien Echol's rage (which he stated can only be released by "hurting someone") that Damien Echol&#8217;s has two incurable mental disorders, bipolar disorder AND schizophrenia, and he doesn't take medication?


Pensfan
________
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

 

[Pensfan]

Michael Carson was a liar.The story was fed to him by his counsellor.
The counsellor contacted the defense team and apologized to Jason.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/dannyw_letter.html

You forgot to mention that Michael Carson passed a polygraph stating that there was NO DECEPTION found in his statement to police about how Jason confessed to him. You also forgot to mention that Michael Carson did not have anything to gain by telling police that Jason confessed to him that he (Jason) killed these helpless little boys.

 

[LunaticFringe]

You forgot to mention that Michael Carson passed a polygraph stating that there was NO DECEPTION found in his statement to police about how Jason confessed to him. You also forgot to mention that Michael Carson did not have anything to gain by telling police that Jason confessed to him that he (Jason) killed these helpless little boys.

Gary Ridgeway passed his polygraph too.


He was The Green River Killer.


I guess it's all in the way you percieve these tests.